Is it right to keep horses without adequate facilities?

Mine have recently moved to a new yard with lots of grass...I am not in a position to bring them in so they have to stay out 24/7 (until winter).
I have sectioned them off into their own little piece of field and will be strimming the very long grass (its like standing hay) tomorrow. Once that is eaten down they'll be on measured hay and bare grass to get their weights down. Should their weights be acceptable before summer is over I will allow them access to grass again but at the moment they are fat and it is just not feasible to try and manage any sort of grazing.
Currently I am saving up for decent grazing muzzles but until then I am stuck for what else I can do, and having them on a bare paddock, weighed hay and exercise has always gotten their weights down nicely before when they have crept up.
 
Almost as important as removing grass from the diet is movement in my view. This is where I feel that a proper track system is so beneficial.

Horses stood around in paddocks with lush grass or stressed grass is really playing roulette with their health.
 
As others have said, it's all about the compromise...

At a previous yard, I moved as the school was very poor, and all bedding etc had to bought from them, but it wasn't always very good quality etc. New yard had more limited turnout, but pairs instead of a herd, an indoor school etc. I thought it would be easier to keep him trim and fit somewhere with a useable school and better hacking. However, the turnout was nonexistent, and the school wasn't that great either!

Decided when I moved again that turnout should be the priority, but then I got another poor school and quirky liveries...

Have made the compromise this time of moving to 5-day livery. The fields are lush and green, and the YM doesn't quite seem to get why this isn't great for my cob, and why, shock horror, he goes out naked in the summer... But it's a fab yard, the YM and other liveries are lovely. So the compromise is having to feel my way through the management, and of course, less control now I'm no longer DIY. But he's happy, and it works better with my shifts.

So I reckon it always depends on what you can both live with compromising on...:rolleyes:
 
I really dont get the obsession with resting fields after winter I find the best grazing for my fatties is the field they have spent the winter on it starts out a few millimeters long and they eat it as it grows they look great I do have to half the area they graze which means we have a rested field but I use that after november as standing forage So mine get the rested field at the end of the year when it is dying back. I am lucky that my fields are sandy and well drained though so the winter fields are not a sea of mud
 
windand rain said:
I really dont get the obsession with resting fields after winter I find the best grazing for my fatties is the field they have spent the winter on it starts out a few millimeters long and they eat it as it grows they look great I do have to half the area they graze which means we have a rested field but I use that after november as standing forage So mine get the rested field at the end of the year when it is dying back. I am lucky that my fields are sandy and well drained though so the winter fields are not a sea of mud
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I read half way through the above post and started wondering what soil you have. It is the same as mine. Mine grows good grass if I apply fertiliser, but the unfertilised fields are perfect for natives as the grass is pretty sparse. No problem with poaching either except in one field where there is a bit of clay in the soil.
 
You've got to laugh really. In winter there was thread after thread complaining because the YO won't let them turn out in winter and that they've over populated their land, then in summer there are threads grumbling about not being able to restrict grazing enough!
 
It is about compromise. I have a horse that needs to live out, so moved to a place where that could happen. New horse is kept at the same place but he needs his grass intake restricted. He isn't keen on standing in all day on his own, so he has to wear a muzzle.
 
Most fields are planted with rye grass which is for cattle. cattle can digest rich grass horses cannot. It's basic horse management that seems to be overlooked time and time again. Even the BHS teaches basic paddock management and what should be growing in the pasture.

Your paddock is your best friend and nobody seems to understand about it.
 
When I first saw this thread - I thought it would be about horses and ponies you often see chained to strips of wasteland or turned loose on council estates - but it seems that equines being killed by kindness are more of a problem!

Interferring with ANYONE'S horse is a dangerous thing to do because owning one harks back to many a Patrician sentiment - once you were blessed with the funds to buy one - it was presumed that you were of the ilk to know how to look after it in the proper manner. However, we all know that is no longer the case and many folk that keep horses and ponies should not be allowed to own a dead rat!
 
Kaylum said:
Most fields are planted with rye grass which is for cattle. cattle can digest rich grass horses cannot. It's basic horse management that seems to be overlooked time and time again. Even the BHS teaches basic paddock management and what should be growing in the pasture.

Your paddock is your best friend and nobody seems to understand about it.
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My ponies have no problem digesting rye grass or any other grass for that matter. The problem is that rye grass is too rich and the fat goes straight to their backs. If the BHS are teaching you that horses can't digest rye grass, I'm afraid they are quite wrong.
 
It's definitely not right to keep horses without the correct facilities, especially in the long term. If you end up at the wrong yard and move, or your horses needs change at you move as soon as you can find somewhere suitable your hardly the worlds worst owner. It's those who don't try to do what is best for the horse and provide the care they need who are, IMO, being unfair to the horse. I know that grass and weight is the current hot topic, and so it should be - fat or laminitic horses need to be handled seriously. But I've seen lots of horses end up with the wrong owner in terms of handling and behaviour to. If your a first time owner without significant previous experience, or you buy a horse who is more than you though you were taking on then I think it's only right and fair to the horse to either get the help which is needed for everyone to be happy, or to find the horse a more suitable home. Too many people hold onto horses they can't manage out of determination, stubbornness or ideas that no one else can manage them either. If it's a mismatch it's better for everyone the horse finds a new home before they become a problem animal, or if the horse is genuinely past helping it's suitable retirement or pts. Adequate facilities means adequate help, instruction and support as well as physical facilities.
 
Dry Rot said:
My ponies have no problem digesting rye grass or any other grass for that matter. The problem is that rye grass is too rich and the fat goes straight to their backs. If the BHS are teaching you that horses can't digest rye grass, I'm afraid they are quite wrong.
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Just to clarify for anyone who's worried: we don't teach that rye grass is unsuitable or indigestable - on the contrary, it's a good, palatable grass that can be encouraged as part of quality grazing. Others include timothy, smooth meadow and tall fescue.
 
Having this internal debate with myself daily atm :(

2 horses one is very good doer and one isn't so good, not so good doer could be turned out on his own in a lush paddock, but gets stressy on his own. Can't put him with the main 'herd' at the yard as he stresses and doesn't eat what grass there is. Can put them both in a paddock together but it is better for the not so good doer, so the very good doer would have to wear a grazing muzzle part time. The 2 horses are pals and are happier together.

But I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place and no other offer for the 2 of them from YM. I'm now trying to exercise the good doer more so I can keep his muzzle off so fingers crossed it works then they are both happpy and at the right weight!!
 
I wasn't really questioning livery facilities as such, more asking whether all these compromises and not-quite-right facilities are fair on the animal. I think CBFan has hit the nail on the head talking about what they need.

So if suitable grazing/turnout/exercise/diet, etc, cannot be provided by the owner without compromising the horse then is it right to try to keep them in the first place? I know that will be a controversial thing to say. But you wouldn't try and keep an alsation in a one bedroom top floor flat (at least I hope not). Or tropical fish in an outdoor pond...

There seem to be so many more horse owners now than when I was a kid, and equally so many more health issues.
 
many pony paddock grass seed mixes have a high % or rye grass because it is harder wearing than others despite it not being ideal for horses.
 
leflynn said:
Having this internal debate with myself daily atm :(

2 horses one is very good doer and one isn't so good, not so good doer could be turned out on his own in a lush paddock, but gets stressy on his own. Can't put him with the main 'herd' at the yard as he stresses and doesn't eat what grass there is. Can put them both in a paddock together but it is better for the not so good doer, so the very good doer would have to wear a grazing muzzle part time. The 2 horses are pals and are happier together.

But I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place and no other offer for the 2 of them from YM. I'm now trying to exercise the good doer more so I can keep his muzzle off so fingers crossed it works then they are both happpy and at the right weight!!
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It is very tricky! I'm in a similar position to you except I only have one and fortunately he is perfectly happy to spend time on his own but I am having to deal with field sharing politics which has been going on for the last with a Problem person who kept saying to me ' The problem is, I want grass for my horse and you don't' - firstly this isn't a problem - my horse is perfectly happy on limited grazing and only occasional (half the time) interraction with others but secondly if you so badly want your horse to have grass, why do you turn it out on lush grass during the day and then keep it on a bare patch overnight??! surely it's better to have a constant supply of moderate grazing than lots for 12 hours a day and then none for the other 12 hours??!! no? I'd rather have to supplement poor grazing with hay than have too much grass....

I also find it more tricky when the good doer / lami prone isn't your typical little pony or fat cob... no-one believes you when they are in good health! - mine is a 17.2hh warmblood type and is currently slightly underweight but I would prefer that to slightly overweight...I will happily stick a grazing muzzle on him if I have no other option, but I wouldn't want him to have to wear it for more than 12 hours a day - much less if at all possible, i don't expect people to change the way they want to keep horses but it would be nice if they could accept the way I want / NEED to keep mine in order to prevent is pedal bones falling out the soles of his feet!!
 
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Greylegs said:
The upsides are that I have great facilities and everything I need immediately to hand. The downside is that, as has already been pointed out by Cobsgalore, there's a price for this - in my case it's having to restrict my pony's turnout quite severely at this time of year.

As such, he's only out for 4 hours per day at present
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Personally, I would always sacrifice the facilities that I want for the basic needs of my horse... Turnout is number one IMO. I keep my horses at my mums currently (and will be at mine soon) - I dont have an arena or anything to ride in so for years I have to work them in the paddocks, not ideal due to the weather obviously but I get by. There's a lovely livery yard nearby with a great outdoor school etc. but I'm not willing to limit my horses turnout. I'd never ever put my horses into a place which limited turnout even if it had the best facilities in the world that would make my life so much easier. I think if you can't provide basic requirements such as turnout then basically you shouldn't have a horse. As Nubibranch already pointed out - you wouldn't buy an Alsation if you had a tiny flat for example, so I dont see why people think its a "right" to own a horse even though they cant provide for it!
 
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Is it right to keep horses in lush green fields, well no it's not. Is it right to keep horses in a 12 x 12 box for hours and hours and hours, no it's not.

Either they get what they need or don't keep them.
 
Moving to a new area last year, the livery yard nearly cost my boy his life. The grazing appeared just like the grazing he'd had everywhere else he'd had during the 11 years of owning him.
Although nothing else had changed in his routine, he got laminitis for the first time. At the time the vet said that it was possible that he could never eat grass again.
The YO would not to offer any suitable turnout or even one of the small paddocks to strip graze. All laminitics at the yard were stabled or/and muzzled.

If my only option was to stable 24/7, I decided he'd be PTS but eventually I found another yard with grazing that could accommodate his needs.

He's now out unmuzzled 24/7 in a 3 acre field in a herd and continues to lose weight. He's never hungry but he is healthy, fit and back to his former self.

The difference in grazing is startling. The field is green, he has enough to eat. My other horse needs more grass and yet this yard accommodates her needs in another field.

Livery yards should bear in mind the type of grazing they offer and the needs of the horses they take. It's not acceptable to know that laminitis is a problem for horses on the yard and yet do nothing.
Either be up front and say the grass is rich, don't come here, or provide facilities to manage at risk horses and ponies.
 
Haven't read all the posts so sorry if I'm repeating anyone!

I think the problem is most people keep their horses on livery and it's very difficult for livery yards to cater to everyone's needs. I think a lot of horses are over fed for the amount of work they do but the expectation is good grazing and green fields when you're choosing a livery yard even if that's not what's best for your horse as an individual.

Unfortunately there's sometimes limited choice at livery and we must fit in with other people. For example the livery yard I am at is very good. There's a range of different paddocks of varying quality, starvation to lush. There's flat fields and there's hilly fields to vary turnout exercise. However, my gelding could really do with being in a bare field as he's rather chubby but there are horses at the yard who require the starvation paddocks more as they are at greater risk so I have to suck it up and have him in a lusher field. It's impossible for yard owners to please everyone!

At the end of the day we can only do the best we can.
 
Is a compromise or the "best we can" good enough though if it puts a horse at risk. I agree with pale rider if we cant provide adequately for our horses should we keep them at all
 
windand rain said:
Is a compromise or the "best we can" good enough though if it puts a horse at risk. I agree with pale rider if we cant provide adequately for our horses should we keep them at all
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I think it depends on what you mean by risk. There's a difference to having a horse who's chubbier than you would like to having a horse prone to laminitis and not managing that properly. I think no-one should take on a horse prone to this serious health condition if they don't have the facilities to manage it.
 
*sprinkles* said:
I think it depends on what you mean by risk. There's a difference to having a horse who's chubbier than you would like to having a horse prone to laminitis and not managing that properly. I think no-one should take on a horse prone to this serious health condition if they don't have the facilities to manage it.
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What happens if you take on a horse / pony, not knowing it is prone to such conditions... who's responsible for providing 'adequate facilities' then (i.e whenthe horse develops lami at a later date? Owner ultimately I know, but surely the y/o has some sort of responsibility too? after all it could be said that it was their 'INadequate facilities' that contributed to the development of the condition...

Just saying!!
 
I personally think and unmanaged chubbier than you would like horse is always at risk of laminitis even if it has never suffered from it before hence keeping my chubby natives on very small acreages of very short grass when necessary
 
Pale Rider said:
Is it right to keep horses in lush green fields, well no it's not. Is it right to keep horses in a 12 x 12 box for hours and hours and hours, no it's not.

Either they get what they need or don't keep them.
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I have to agree with this, there is a lot more to running a livery yard than providing an all-weather school, which seems to be one of the things that a lot of, particularly novice, horse owners look for. Equine company is also a must, in my book.
I really think that many owners choose how/where to keep their horses according to their own convenience, rather than their horses needs.
 
Ideally, horses need almost constant movement, ad lib forage that is safe, company and shelter. That's what a livery service should be built around, not what owners 'require'. Owners requirements should be a long way down the list.
 
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