Is it true the BHS puts a black mark against your name if you complain about an exam?

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yaddowshad

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I am getting very disilusioned with the BHS and some of the examiners to a point I have made some comments to that effect.

Today I was told by an instructor that if the examiners hear you are unhappy about them they will actually black list your name and you will continue to fail your exams no matter how good you are.

A friend of mine has failed stage 3 5 times and yet she competes reguarly and wins numerous shows, however she did have a fall out with an examiner (not in an exam) and it was hinted at that she would never get her 3.

Is this true?

Please be honest if you know some inside info.
 
untrue-sounds like sour grapes to me.
However making comments to the examiner would suggest to me that I then avoided this examiner, as personal clashes can occur.
 
It wouldn't surprise me to be honest.

The stupid thing is that given what they require in terms of how to ride, even the GB eventing team probably wouldn't pass their Stage 3. Make of that what you will...
 
I suspect you would find the GB event team would pass...unless you cna clarify someway that the think the BHS will penalise them
 
I must admit I know a rider who competes internationally in showjumping who failed her stage 3 showjumping!!!!!!!!! not sure what to make of that.
 
I had a disagrement with an examiner when doing my riding and road saftey. He told me I had failed because I didnt put my hand up to thank a driver for slowing down and because I had caused traffic to stop as my horse had spooked and reared up!!!!!
The horse they put me on was very fresh that day, they set us off a minute apart so the horses could see the horse that went before them. The horse I was on had apprentley never hacked out by its self so was very eager to catch up with the horse infront. When I explained that the reason I didnt take my hands of the reins to thank the driver was because the horse was plunging down the road and I didnt think it would be safe, I acknowledged the driver and nodded to say thankyou but apprentley that is'nt good enough. And when I said I could hardly help it that the horse spooked and reared and I thought I handled the situation preetty well he said I should of got off the horse and lead it passed the traffic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I went it to a big rant about how the BHS are supposed to be promoting horse and rider saftey and then I get told all this.
Needless to say when I went and done my stage 2 he was one of the examiners and I failed!!!!
 
berry said:
I had a disagrement with an examiner when doing my riding and road saftey. He told me I had failed because I didnt put my hand up to thank a driver for slowing down and because I had caused traffic to stop as my horse had spooked and reared up!!!!!
The horse they put me on was very fresh that day, they set us off a minute apart so the horses could see the horse that went before them. The horse I was on had apprentley never hacked out by its self so was very eager to catch up with the horse infront. When I explained that the reason I didnt take my hands of the reins to thank the driver was because the horse was plunging down the road and I didnt think it would be safe, I acknowledged the driver and nodded to say thankyou but apprentley that is'nt good enough. And when I said I could hardly help it that the horse spooked and reared and I thought I handled the situation preetty well he said I should of got off the horse and lead it passed the traffic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I went it to a big rant about how the BHS are supposed to be promoting horse and rider saftey and then I get told all this.
Needless to say when I went and done my stage 2 he was one of the examiners and I failed!!!!
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Sorry slightly OT but when I took my riding and road saftey I was told not to thank drivers with my hand but with a nod of my head.

I think the problem with exams is they are very subjective, what is a good rider? Someone who has a perfect position and looks good or someone who doesn't look that great but can get a tune out of the horse they are riding?

I have never done a BHS exam but I have done my PC exams and atm I am contemplating weather to do my stage 5 or my A test. So I will be following this post to see wheather this is true.
 
Don't think there is a stage 5 unless I'm wrong... And Pc B test will only get you in at stage 3 level to start with.
 
SusieT said:
I suspect you would find the GB event team would pass...unless you cna clarify someway that the think the BHS will penalise them
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Given that they don't approach jumps in their forward light seat that could be interesting as it's a big part of the BHS training. Daisy Dick's jump position certainly wouldn't be seen as good in the eyes of the BHS or Mary King's overtly defensive position...

It's my biggest bug bear about the BHS exams personally as riding's about be effective, not pretty looking.

And yes I know the BHS system pretty well before you ask.
 
I think its true what Geoff Billington says, if the poles stay up then youve had a successful round and it doesnt really matter what you look like as long as you are effective.
 
SusieT said:
Don't think there is a stage 5 unless I'm wrong... And Pc B test will only get you in at stage 3 level to start with.
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No there is I think. And I know I can go in a do my stage 3, but as my B test is equivelent to most of stage 3 and some of stage 4 it seems a bit pointless doing things I have already done so I think I'm going down the A test route.
 
Kokopelli said:
No there is I think. And I know I can go in a do my stage 3, but as my B test is equivelent to most of stage 3 and some of stage 4 it seems a bit pointless doing things I have already done so I think I'm going down the A test route.
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The highest stage exam is 4. List is down the side of here: http://www.bhs.org.uk/Training_and_Qualifications/BHS_Examinations_and_Qualifications.aspx

And from looking at the direct entry, even your A test only gets you into your Stage 3. There is no direct entry into Stage 4 through the PC exams as far as I'm aware.
 
boogles said:
So true yaddow

Surely it is better to be a more effective rider with a "unique" style, that to ride "the BHS way" and not feel comfortable enough to get a tune out of a horse?
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Absolutely agree, when you watch the top showjumpers from here and abroad their styles are so different but equally effective, and i wonder if they would pass BHS exams???
 
right, so its conjecture then, you think they wouldn't pass as opposed to know that they've failed..
I suspect you would find they would pass no problems as stage 3 really isn't that high a standard of riding.
Regarding 'unique' style. IMO once you can ride soft and effectively you will be riding in a fairly widely respected position on normal horses. You may have a unique style for difficult horses but many people who *think* they simply have a 'better' position are actually not as good as they think they are..
E.g watch the dressage for the big riders- no odd positions there!
 
SusieT said:
right, so its conjecture then, you think they wouldn't pass as opposed to know that they've failed..
I suspect you would find they would pass no problems as stage 3 really isn't that high a standard of riding.
Regarding 'unique' style. IMO once you can ride soft and effectively you will be riding in a fairly widely respected position on normal horses. You may have a unique style for difficult horses but many people who *think* they simply have a 'better' position are actually not as good as they think they are..
E.g watch the dressage for the big riders- no odd positions there!
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The first thing i would ask is if you are a showjumper? secondly you are heavily on the side of the BHS so imagine you have taken the exams or you are an examiner, if you are neither i would suggest you dont have the full facts.

I have taken the exams, am an instructor and compete showjumping and dressage which are completely different to each other in style and outcome, and still believe the examiners are biased against some people, it would be interesting if you can proove this is not the case.
 
SusieT said:
You may have a unique style for difficult horses but many people who *think* they simply have a 'better' position are actually not as good as they think they are..
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sounds like a "dig" to me! So you are then saying that say John whitaker / Mary king and Geoff billington are "not as good as they think" ? They ALL have what I would call a unique style to their riding.
 
They have a common base of stability and ability to be light on the horse.
I am talking about lower level riders FWIW - who use it as an excuse as to why they don't pass BHS exams because obviously their uniqueness is not appreciated...
I have no link to the BHS whatsoever, I just find it amusing to see people making up all sorts of excuses to make themselves feel better.
You will find that the riders you mention will all be able to ride a normal horse in a 'normal' way. As I say-watch the dressage, or the warm up of sjers.
BUT I did say (maybe not as clearly..)-if you have a personality clash with an examiner and they have failed you, it is worth going to sit it under another examiner and getting their opinion as people are only human.
regarding competing sj and dressage-funny how you say that. I am an eventer and see the three phases as working together in harmony, with a different position for each but the same end goal.
 
SusieT said:
They have a common base of stability and ability to be light on the horse.

Yes they do but they do not have the generally accepted BHS seat so I dont really get your point.

Also I think most people who have achieved the BHS level 3 would be quite offended that you say it isnt that hard, perhaps if you had a go you may see a different point. By not doing it your self and being judged by others how do you know you have the right position and seat and how would you feel if you were told you dont meet the standard as you obviously think you do.
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yaddowshad said:
Today I was told by an instructor that if the examiners hear you are unhappy about them they will actually black list your name and you will continue to fail your exams no matter how good you are.

A friend of mine has failed stage 3 5 times and yet she competes reguarly and wins numerous shows, however she did have a fall out with an examiner (not in an exam) and it was hinted at that she would never get her 3.
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Well, my inside info isn't current - but when I was at the BHS complaints about exams - or examiners - were taken seriously and investigated. No examiner could -at least officially - 'blacklist' a candidate (except perhaps to his/her close friends)

The fact that someone competes regularly does not necessarily mean that they are 'correct' - or that they ride correctly on the day in the exam. The BHS exams are to 'qualify' people who will be out there teaching - not competing A Grade.

And -for the record - I failed Stage 4 jumping for 'excessive use of the whip'! :rolleyes: At the time I didn't think it was excessive as horse had already stopped 4 times with previous candidate and thrown her into the last fence. He was clear with me to the same fence - and started throwing on the anchors 8 strides out so I gave him two good ones - he didn't stop! I was pretty pi**ed off about it at the time but with hindsight, one would almost certainly have been enough and as the BHS is primarily a welfare organisation, it CAN'T be seen to be encouraging riders to be whip-happy!
 
I am qualified to the level of BHS Stage 3 actually..
And whilst I myself do not claim to be an excellent rider, for a decent rider it is not that hard, but you do have to be decent to pass. Any old riding school pupil would not be able to for example. You obviously have a gripe with the system. Why not go along and watch some exam riding and see if you can pick up on the flaws that cause failures, and you will see what I mean. You are obviously not getting what I am trying to say regarding lightness and non interference so I think we may continue on our merry ways.
 
In a previous incarnation, I had quite a lot to do with BHS exam training, and have heard endless excuses as to why candidates failed.
Usually, the truth is that they were not good enough.
I have failed some BHS exams - I was not good enough (and sometimes I was very bad indeed :D). The key is in not wasting time trying to find excuses - instead I tried to get better, learned from my failures, and tried again.
S :D
 
I have a friend who is in her 50's, taught in a large riding school and ridden most of her life but never taken an exam. Because of her job she is having to take her stages, shes paid for this so she thought why not.
The center that she takes her training uses badly fitting tack, ' thats what they come with', pulled a horse out of a stable for a lesson which she pointed out was lame, 'we have to work through that' and has not real concept of health and saftey and risk assesment.
She was told she would fail the lunge part of the test using the horse that was lame and the badly fitting tack because the lunge line was not straight.
She waits with enticipation to fail her next stage. She hopes then her boss will let her off the rest.
I think if I really wanted to do this for a living I would go to Markfield or Talland and take so proper sport coaching exams which would could cover a number of jobs
 
Why does she not complain tot he BHS? I have found them very good when dealing with a complaint I made regarding a riding school-after all if no-one complains and the horses are 'sound' when they inspect-then how will it be sorted otherwise?
 
I have to agree with Shilasdair. I too failed a Stage exam before passing my AI. I took it on the chin and tried again when I'd done a bit more work. I also don't think that I was mature enough to pass the exam first time round. I thought I knew it all at that age... In my day you got your results on the day, and good feedback from the examiners, who would discuss anything you wanted to help you improve. Unfortunately this was altered because too many people were argueing with them - something that amazed me when I heard it - I wouldn't have dreamed of argueing with a BHSI that was examining me! Some of the posts on here that are saying the "system is not fair" are telling of how they argued with examiners about how the horse wasn't suitable for the exam etc... this seems along the same lines..

Sorry if this seems a personal attack - it isn't - just my observation, and I have a girl that grooms for me, who rides way better than me, yet she has failed her stage three twice...
 
A friernd of mine who show jumps sucessfully at national level recently failed her stage 3 ! She'd already been given the go ahead for direct entry to the exam by a BHSI & a FBHS, (not examining that day, but examiners in their own right, so we'd assume they knew what they were talking about). When she got up there she overheard one of the examiners saying to the venue owner something like 'another one thinks she can just get straight in'. After the flatwork seession they told her that her seat was too insecure to allow her to go forward to the jumping session, yet a girl who was clearly scared & hanging on by the reins in canter was allowed to carry on with the jumping part !
When my friend protested that she takes horse to break & school & has many satisifed clients, one of the examiners said 'Oh yes, you can certainly school a horse, but that's not what we're looking for here today' They even agreed that every one of the RS horses she'd ridden during the morning had improved as she'd ridden it ! There was one horse who didn't canter on the correct leg on one direction for anyone else apart from her. The venue owner even commented on it !
By the way, anyone who passes BRC levels 1 -3 (inc) in the Equitation & Horse Welfare exams can get direct entry to BHS stage 3. Can save quite a bit of time & money !
 
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Given that BHS exams do not permit spectators, the only source for all these tales of great riders failing, and uphauling riders (:D) passing are...the aggrieved riders.
Hardly an unbiased source of evidence.
S :D
 
I've sat BHS exams, I've not passed them all first time round and when I've failed I've known its because I've had an awful day and not been up to standard on that day, even though I've believed I have been riding well above standard at home.

I can't see how the examiners would know who to blacklist given that there are generally in the region of 20 candidates on each exam day, none of whom at the exams I've been at have personally known the examiners there on the day, its a very busy day with all the different sections overseen by different examiners to get through and I would be highly surprised even at the end of the day if the examiners could remember your first name never mind your entire back history. Certainly when I've resat exams the chief examiner at one in particular actually said something along the lines of she did not know if people have sat that exam before, she could have been lying of course, but why bother? I don't think the sheets you get back are any help as you can rarely figure out why you failed, (and there are no comments at all giving praise if you did well) which doesn't help if you need to work out what needs to change in order to pass.

To the person above who was talking about a lady training with lame horses, that is not the BHS itself as an organisation that is giving her a lame horse and bad equipment, it is the individual riding school. Talk with your feet and leave, don't support them, the local authority is responsible for licensing the school and should be informed they are working a lame horse, and if the school is also BHS approved then report them, if not approved still report them to the welfare department. How can the BHS be blamed for something they are not aware of? Given the staff don't appear to be very aware or well trained themselves, I really wouldn't take their word as gospel that she is or isn't up to standard as who are they to judge? They don't sound like BHSI's/examiners or even that experienced in putting people through exams.
 
The laws on data protection are pretty strict about what information you can hold in relation to individuals and about making this information available if they so request.

I find it extremely unlikely that the BHS would hold information "blacklisting" candidates.

That isn't to say that if you are unlucky enough to face an examiner that you have previously argued with and they happen to remember you they wouldn't be slightly biased. Examiners are only human and whilst they should give everyone a fair chance I suppose this could happen. Although I would expect it would be fairly unlikely as they are also professionals. It is the same as taking your driving test really, the DVLA don't hold records other than a straight pass or fail.

I think if you have a genuine objective complaint about the way an exam was conducted then you should raise this with the BHS direct. If you simply don't agree with the examiner's decision on the day then you would be wise to keep it zipped and take it on the chin, accept that your performance wasn't up to it on the day and try again after some more training.
 
I'd never waste my time doing BHS exams. I also failed my riding and road safety for not having my thumbs up..."You're not pushing a trolley you know, I'm not passing you". Turns out this examiner had a massive fall out with my instructor. I know for a fact that I did the test faultlessly as several other people told me. None of my group passed we were all from the same place. I also know several other riders who have competed nationally and are amazing riders who have failed due to personal differences with the exmaniners for some reason or another in their past.

I think the only fair way to do it is not to do it locally. But personally I'd not touch the BHS with someone else's shitty stick until they admit that these things actually happen and do something about it.
 
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