Is it true the BHS puts a black mark against your name if you complain about an exam?

As far as I have been able to work out, from watching/training with BHS trained people and from reading the syllabus for each exam (at one point was considering taking them), is that the BHS has 'one way' for riding and stable management, and for the purpose of their exams at least, you either do it their way or not at all.

The aim behind it, is that everyone who has taken their training is safe to work with horses incl riding client's horses. It's not so they can compete successfully, or bring on youngsters etc. Those things require adaptability, and the BHS does not entertain that idea in its official teachings. Those of us who do school youngsters, or who ride in higher level competition, are probably far too used to adapting to the situation and the horse, so would have to concentrate hard to do things the BHS way for an exam.
 
An interesting thread.

I haven't been involved in BHS exams, etc., for more years than I care to remember (and have forgotten far more than I remember!), but can it be compared to taking a car test? I know that I drive differently to what is probably acceptable in a car test environment; my driving is safe and effective and I do a lot of it, but I doubt I'd pass the test again without reassesing what and how and having to concentrate on the actual actions and position.

ETA: sorry, I realise that the thread is about blackballing, about which I have no knowledge, but the comments re. who could/should etc. pass was interesting.
 
Sounds a bit like the driving test quota myths to me.

I have no doubt that some exam centres are better than others - so if you're having problems failing under a particular examiner repeatedly, and you're sure your riding is to standard why not try a different centre?

The lame horse thing was interesting - I am studying at an equine college at the moment and we have one who the vet (and whose owner a vet med student) recommends that your ride through the lameness (although I'd call it stiffness) - maybe it was a similar situation to that?
 
I don't know anything about black marks against your name - seems unlikely, I have passed BHS exams and have been a member for about 30 years.

So when my daughter took her riding and road safety, through the PC I thought nothing of it. Excellent training.

Spectators were allowed on the day, I was surprised. Some parents were reminding their children of what to do. My daughter was doing very well, without reminders. I did observe from a distance through a car window. 100% written test, excellent simulated road and road test. She failed.
The examiners were blunt to the point of being rude. The trainer was flabbergasted and tried her best to get the decision changed. I thought my daughter was great, she thanked the examiners and left. We said there would be an appeal and the PC and I thought we had done that.

When I heard nothing, no confirmation of a fail - just nothing. I rang the BHS. They said no appeal had been launched, the paper work was fine, even though the examiners had failed her on something on the paperwork which was different from what we had been told on the day. Even the other parents thought the best candidate had failed - strange.

What really bothered me was that we thought there would be a formal appeal, but the examiners didn't give us the right information to do this, the BHS was unhelpful. Our PC doesn't do their riding and road safety anymore. It was an expensive fiasco. I think there are better ways forward for most riders than BHS exams.
 
I took my BHS exams years ago, and to be honest I thought they were a bit of a farce! In my stage 1 exam one chap dismounted the wrong side, did not run his stirrups up to trot up and the lack of knowledge during the theory section was amazing, however, everyone passed!! In my Riding and Road Safety exams, I gave what I thought was a foot perfect ride, and got 100% in the theory section. When we came to the debrief, one of the lads observing told me I did not look over my shoulder before signalling - I did - the examiner said "yes she did, I saw that from where I was stood" and I was allowed to pass - the observer was a young kid who had no experience of horses and had been drafted in to help by his mum, who was also taking the exam... Stage 2 saw people dropping lunge lines/whips and still passing, and stage 3 was just a joke! A friend of mine passed her PTT and Stage 3 and is terrified of handling horses on the ground, and as quiet as a mouse when teaching - the kids run riot with her!

I did my exams in my gap year on a day release college placement, and I did them to allow me to teach freelance through uni and make some extra pocket money. However, I have never registered myself as a BHS instructor as I don't see the point, the entire system is farcical! One of my instuctors, who has competed at top national level, ridden in the RHA for 9 years and is a superb horseman, failed his Stage 3 riding section twice! He is far more accomplished than I was!
 
zoeshiloh said:
I took my BHS exams years ago, and to be honest I thought they were a bit of a farce! In my stage 1 exam one chap dismounted the wrong side, did not run his stirrups up to trot up and the lack of knowledge during the theory section was amazing, however, everyone passed!! In my Riding and Road Safety exams, I gave what I thought was a foot perfect ride, and got 100% in the theory section. When we came to the debrief, one of the lads observing told me I did not look over my shoulder before signalling - I did - the examiner said "yes she did, I saw that from where I was stood" and I was allowed to pass - the observer was a young kid who had no experience of horses and had been drafted in to help by his mum, who was also taking the exam... Stage 2 saw people dropping lunge lines/whips and still passing, and stage 3 was just a joke! A friend of mine passed her PTT and Stage 3 and is terrified of handling horses on the ground, and as quiet as a mouse when teaching - the kids run riot with her!

I did my exams in my gap year on a day release college placement, and I did them to allow me to teach freelance through uni and make some extra pocket money. However, I have never registered myself as a BHS instructor as I don't see the point, the entire system is farcical! One of my instuctors, who has competed at top national level, ridden in the RHA for 9 years and is a superb horseman, failed his Stage 3 riding section twice! He is far more accomplished than I was!
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Sounds as if your experiences pretty well mirror those of my friend !
The BHSI & FBHS who approved her to go forward to the stage three couldn't understand how she could have failed, & like yourself she considers the whole a farce.
 
i had a friend who passed her 1-4 first time but fell off in the practical jumping exam of stage 3. she passed because of the quality of the rest of the exam and how she handled and accepted what went wrong, so maybe they dont expect perfection?
 
zebedee said:
Sounds as if your experiences pretty well mirror those of my friend !
The BHSI & FBHS who approved her to go forward to the stage three couldn't understand how she could have failed, & like yourself she considers the whole a farce.
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There are a few points to note about sitting BHS exams;
When all candidates enter, they think they should pass, or they wouldn't enter.
Not all candidates are pass level - so some will fail, even if their mummies/daddies/paid riding instructor all say they are the bestest, most fabby little riders. :p
No spectators are allowed - and candidates are not the most objective of judges, particularly once they have failed.
And a serious point - people can be riding at, say Stage 2 level at home on familiar horses, but nerves and the requirement to ride different, strange horses can often affect them so badly they fail.
I have seen students, who ride at Stage 3 - 4 level at home, fail their Stage 2 exams through abysmal riding (and yes, I could watch, as I wasn't a 'spectator').
A lot of the whinging about BHS failures is simply sour grapes from lazy people who know the price of everything, the value of nothing and expect to be rewarded for little effort. They fondly imagine they are the next eventing superstar, spurred on by the dreams of mum and dad...
I always believe that the point at which you decide whether you believe in exams is when you sign up for them - not after you have failed. Similarly, the point at which you believe in a dressage or show judge, is when you sign up for the class in the first place - it is disrespectful and shows a lack of moral fibre if you sign up, then bitch about them afterwards.
So there! :p
S :D
 
LivingTheDream92 said:
i had a friend who passed her 1-4 first time but fell off in the practical jumping exam of stage 3. she passed because of the quality of the rest of the exam and how she handled and accepted what went wrong, so maybe they dont expect perfection?
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They don't expect 'perfection' or some ritualistic BHS way of doing things. They just want to see workmanlike behaviour - so getting back on after you fall off, sorting out your lunge horse if its naughty, etc.
Most BHS examiners have worked and are working (the role is part time and poorly paid), in the equine industry in various roles so have a good knowledge of what a practical equine instructor or groom needs to be able to do.
All this stuff about weird BHS ways - it's just nonsense. :D :p
S :D
 
Spectators were most certainly allowed at my daughter's BHS r&rs. Many of the parents prompted their children and weren't reprimanded - I was surprised to say the least. I went away.
 
I have my Stage One Care as I thought it would be a good idea when I bought my first horse to brush up on the basics. I did pass so my opinions are not sour grapes but I have to say I was shocked by the way that the exam was run. As a qualified secondary school teacher used to organising exams I was appalled at the slightly ad hoc way in which the exam was run.

At one point we were all sat round in the tack room and the examiner was asking us questions as a group. We had to go round the circle all listing things that we would check when a horse was turned out into a field. We all gave our answers and then it came back to my turn again. I said that I couldn't think of any more and that I felt we'd given a thorough list. The examiner looked shocked and said would I not check to see if there were any holes in the fence? That had been the very first thing that I had said as we went round the circle! Thankfully the rest of the group instantly backed me up and the examiner admitted that she'd forgotten what had been said!

The rest of the exam continued in much the same way, she didn't include some things which we were part of the basic syllabus and then asked us to identify and describe the uses of certain feeds and tack that we weren't expected to know at Stage One. Thankfully I did know the answers but some people in the group didn't which I thought was thoroughly unfair.

In any other professional exam the examiner is expected to stay rigidly within the syllabus and what has been taught. You can't just ask different questions on the day because the test centre happens to have interesting items in their tack room.

Although I did pass my Stage One it certainly put me off doing any more of the exams. Its a lot of money to risk on the whim of the elderly woman who is your examiner and her interpretation of what you should know.
 
MrSpam said:
Spectators were most certainly allowed at my daughter's BHS r&rs. Many of the parents prompted their children and weren't reprimanded - I was surprised to say the least. I went away.
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Oh yes, sorry I should have made it clear I was referring to BHS STAGES exams, and therefore was excluding R & RS exams, Horse owner tests etc.
S :D
 
absolute diva said:
I have my Stage One Care as I thought it would be a good idea when I bought my first horse to brush up on the basics. I did pass so my opinions are not sour grapes but I have to say I was shocked by the way that the exam was run. As a qualified secondary school teacher used to organising exams I was appalled at the slightly ad hoc way in which the exam was run.

At one point we were all sat round in the tack room and the examiner was asking us questions as a group. We had to go round the circle all listing things that we would check when a horse was turned out into a field. We all gave our answers and then it came back to my turn again. I said that I couldn't think of any more and that I felt we'd given a thorough list. The examiner looked shocked and said would I not check to see if there were any holes in the fence? That had been the very first thing that I had said as we went round the circle! Thankfully the rest of the group instantly backed me up and the examiner admitted that she'd forgotten what had been said!

The rest of the exam continued in much the same way, she didn't include some things which we were part of the basic syllabus and then asked us to identify and describe the uses of certain feeds and tack that we weren't expected to know at Stage One. Thankfully I did know the answers but some people in the group didn't which I thought was thoroughly unfair.

In any other professional exam the examiner is expected to stay rigidly within the syllabus and what has been taught. You can't just ask different questions on the day because the test centre happens to have interesting items in their tack room.

Although I did pass my Stage One it certainly put me off doing any more of the exams. Its a lot of money to risk on the whim of the elderly woman who is your examiner and her interpretation of what you should know.
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I've got a hunch you've never worked with Edexcel then :p
ETA: Virtually everyone passes Stage 1 HK & C anyway - it's designed to be a gentle introduction. If you found it challenging, best not continue.
S :D
 
Shilasdair said:
I always believe that the point at which you decide whether you believe in exams is when you sign up for them - not after you have failed. Similarly, the point at which you believe in a dressage or show judge, is when you sign up for the class in the first place - it is disrespectful and shows a lack of moral fibre if you sign up, then bitch about them afterwards.
So there! :p
S :D
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I passed all my exams first time, so I am certainly not bitching about it being unfair from that point of view - what I think was a farce was that other people passing the exams alongside me really shouldn't have, and friends/instructors that have gone to take the exams since have failed, yet their riding/horsemanship far exceeds my own. There just does not seem to be consistency.
 
No. I've always avoided Edexcel like the plague!

I didn't find it challenging, it was all fairly mundane. I just felt sorry for the people that failed. As you said, its designed to be a gentle introduction. If you fail it should be because you weren't ready, not because they've changed the rules.
 
BHS exams are very different from actually riding a horse effectively in competition. I used to work with someone who had competed at 3* with some sucess, and she failed her stage 3 riding first time out. I get that someone can balk on the day, but when the comments you are told are 'shows a lack of basic understanding of riding xc' you do somewhat wonder.

I think stage 3 is more about looking good than being good, whereas stage 4 is far more like you actually work when you are improving horses.

I used to ride with a FBHS along with some of his WP who were training for their 3. Comments like 'that was great, really good riding, but if you do that in your 3 you will fail' were very common! If you rode your 3 SJ like you would ride a competition, then there are plenty of things you could fail on.

Add in the fact that the horses are not always up to the job - in my stage 1 I was given a horse who 'does not canter on the [whichever] lead' - that was what I was told after my riding by one of the staff (I brought the horse back to trot 7 or 8 times to get the right lead - the other person who rode the horse just let it canter on the wrong lead) - yes, the riding centre's fault not the BHS, but the BHS using the yard as its exam centre should have a higher standard.
 
teapot said:
It wouldn't surprise me to be honest.

The stupid thing is that given what they require in terms of how to ride, even the GB eventing team probably wouldn't pass their Stage 3. Make of that what you will...
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My friend rides dressage very well, at a high level, she wanted to become a BD accredited trainer, but had to do her BHS exams in order to get it. She went to a training centre to make sure she knew what to do for the exams, she was riding one horsein the arena, and the trainer said in short 'stop riding the horse, to pass your exams you need to basically sit there!!!' make of that as you will!!!!!

My own experience of them was 1) did my riding and road safety at about 15 yrs old? (a while ago now!!) and the examiner marked an answer as incorrect. I questioned her about it, and in the end had to go and get the highway code and show her SHE was wrong!!! Her response, 'oh I didn't have my glasses on'!!!!! WTF!!!!!

Funnily enough I then was failed on my stage 2!! straight afterwards!! they told me I failed on my jumping (I was the only one to get 3 clear rounds!!) because I didn't fold into my jumping position before I reached the fence!!! again WTF and I'm not likely to either!! At the time I was jumping affiliated tracks!!!

So no not a huge fan of the BHS exam system, honestly not sour grapes, but I do think the examiners need to go on annual refresher courses, techniques change with the time, you may have folded into a jumping position before you reached a fence in the 1920's!!! But no longer!!

I'm sure others will have had good experiences, and don't want to say the whole system is wrong, but alot of people I speak to have had similar experiences. The exam I failed only had 2 people pass! Surely the price of the exams you aren't going to have 12 people pay for an exam that they're not confident of passing???!
 
competitiondiva said:
My friend rides dressage very well, at a high level, she wanted to become a BD accredited trainer, but had to do her BHS exams in order to get it. She went to a training centre to make sure she knew what to do for the exams, she was riding one horsein the arena, and the trainer said in short 'stop riding the horse, to pass your exams you need to basically sit there!!!' make of that as you will!!!!!
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You will fail your Stage 1 and 2 if you ride a horse in an outline. You aren't expected to be able to do that. Maybe that's a fault I don't know. But in in those exams you basically are meant to show you are in an independent seat.

I failed my Stage 3 jumping 1st time for having a defensive position. If you are not in the BHS "light forward seat" you WILL fail. Hence I expect these "pros" failing. Like Mrs M said it's comparative to your driving test. You here drives with their hands at 10 and 2?
 
Shilasdair said:
There are a few points to note about sitting BHS exams;
When all candidates enter, they think they should pass, or they wouldn't enter.
Not all candidates are pass level - so some will fail, even if their mummies/daddies/paid riding instructor all say they are the bestest, most fabby little riders. :p
No spectators are allowed - and candidates are not the most objective of judges, particularly once they have failed.
And a serious point - people can be riding at, say Stage 2 level at home on familiar horses, but nerves and the requirement to ride different, strange horses can often affect them so badly they fail.
I have seen students, who ride at Stage 3 - 4 level at home, fail their Stage 2 exams through abysmal riding (and yes, I could watch, as I wasn't a 'spectator').
A lot of the whinging about BHS failures is simply sour grapes from lazy people who know the price of everything, the value of nothing and expect to be rewarded for little effort. They fondly imagine they are the next eventing superstar, spurred on by the dreams of mum and dad...
I always believe that the point at which you decide whether you believe in exams is when you sign up for them - not after you have failed. Similarly, the point at which you believe in a dressage or show judge, is when you sign up for the class in the first place - it is disrespectful and shows a lack of moral fibre if you sign up, then bitch about them afterwards.
So there! :p
S :D
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None of the above describes my friend who is a superb horsewoman, sympathetic, balanced, able to get a tune out of anything, & one of the most down to earth 'unwhingy' people on the planet.
She jumps nationally, as a child competed (& won) at HOYS - & has never had a 'made' horse or pony brought for her in her life.
 
Shilasdair said:
There are a few points to note about sitting BHS exams;
When all candidates enter, they think they should pass, or they wouldn't enter.
Not all candidates are pass level - so some will fail, even if their mummies/daddies/paid riding instructor all say they are the bestest, most fabby little riders. :p
No spectators are allowed - and candidates are not the most objective of judges, particularly once they have failed.
And a serious point - people can be riding at, say Stage 2 level at home on familiar horses, but nerves and the requirement to ride different, strange horses can often affect them so badly they fail.
I have seen students, who ride at Stage 3 - 4 level at home, fail their Stage 2 exams through abysmal riding (and yes, I could watch, as I wasn't a 'spectator').
A lot of the whinging about BHS failures is simply sour grapes from lazy people who know the price of everything, the value of nothing and expect to be rewarded for little effort. They fondly imagine they are the next eventing superstar, spurred on by the dreams of mum and dad...
I always believe that the point at which you decide whether you believe in exams is when you sign up for them - not after you have failed. Similarly, the point at which you believe in a dressage or show judge, is when you sign up for the class in the first place - it is disrespectful and shows a lack of moral fibre if you sign up, then bitch about them afterwards.
So there! :p
S :D
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We are quite aware that you are very pro BHS, and I would love to support the system, but my own experience of the exam system is that it is very outdated, I am not aware that the examiners have to do any annual refresher courses to update them on techniques etc.. some of the things they think are correct, where in their times, but things change. If I am wrong then I hold my hands up and say 'excellent' I'm glad they do do refreshers, unfortunately 3 examiners I have come across must have missed their refresher courses for the past umteen years!!!!!

And when a 15 year old has to correct an examiner and show that they were in fact correct out of the highway code, there is something very wrong!.......

I would love to be able to hold the BHS exam system in high esteem, but it is obvious from others on here that everyone has found the same flaws...... I am not knocking anyone who has achieved the exams, but when you have competing candidates out there winning who can't pass there is an issue, and I seriously doubt that you can pass that off as nerves!!!

If I compete and don't win and I can understand why then I hold the judge in high esteem for seeing that, but some of the excuses/reasons I've heard from the examiners begars belief which is why people are bitter. It is not sour grapes because they believe they are better than they are. (I agree there will be some like this, but not the norm!)
 
my ex boss took her BHSAI and was going to do her stage 4 and BHSII exams. She went round a xc course and the examiner failed her for being weak and ineffective across country!!
She had been round Badminton 9 times and had represented GB at 2 World and 1 European Championship in eventing!
She loved telling people that story, and that is why she wasn't any more qualified than an AI !!
 
Afraid I do not have anything to do with the BHS at all.

The two worst yards I have ever experienced were BHS "approved" yards, and I had lessons from one BHS instructor who got on my horse and beat him up in a massive confrontation, it turned out he had a sore back and that's why he was hesitant into the jump.

Then 2 days later he thrashed a riding pony so badly it was covered in weals all over and couldn't be touched for a week

On the other hand my dressage instructor was BHS - and she was absolutely lovely and sensitive to the horses.

But the negative experience outweigh the positive.
 
Shilasdair said:
Given that BHS exams do not permit spectators, the only source for all these tales of great riders failing, and uphauling riders (:D) passing are...the aggrieved riders.
Hardly an unbiased source of evidence.
S :D
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I worked at a BHS examination centre for stage 2,3 and 4 and with the exams in the outdoor school and knowing all the horses for 4 years I can safely say some of the horses were not up to standard for the exams. Often many were rejected by the examiners who have to ride the horses or have them ridden first but had to keep the ones they rejected as we had no others. Some were simiply too crippled or stiff to perform the movements required, some were too green to jump the courses expected of them and some bucked for england regularly planting the most balanced and secure rider including the FBHS. Yes some of the complaints may not be vaild but I can sure as hell say some more than likely are!
 
A few more points;
R & RS exams aren't run by BHS Stages examiners...so the chances that you would be rude to a R & RS examiner then be failed on your Stage are nil.
And you wouldn't 'fail your Stage 1 or 2 for riding in an outline' - although you may fail if you spend your time obsessing about the horse's head position :p which is easily done by novice riders (I have spent a deal of my time staring fixedly at the back of many a horse's ears).
Finally, contrary to CompetitionDiva's assumption, instructors who want to remain on the instructors' register do have to attend refresher courses (and they always seem to hold them in the draughtiest indoor school on the coldest day of the year).
I don't consider myself 'very BHS' at all; in fact years ago I applied for the job of BHS Development Officer in my region, was shortlisted out of 200 applicants to the final four, and went to the interview purely to tell them exactly what I, and my fellow equine industry workers thought of them! :D :p Strangely, they didn't employ me... :p
I just prefer proactive people - those who see a problem and try to solve it - rather than those who whinge ad nauseum without actually doing anything to help.
S :D
 
I do hate to point this out but:

a) Just because you compete at affiliated level does not mean you're an fantastic and faultless rider. Eg... Intro shows? Walk and trot tests? BE 80s??? So 'my friend failed and he competes at BSJA' to me is a load of rubbish!

and Whoever said that the B test involved elements of stage four is clearly overexcited about getting the B test. Yes it is difficult but it is not stage four. AH test is around stage four. B test is similar to stage 2/3. And there is no BHS stage 5.
 
Shilasdair said:
A few more points;
R & RS exams aren't run by BHS Stages examiners...so the chances that you would be rude to a R & RS examiner then be failed on your Stage are nil.
And you wouldn't 'fail your Stage 1 or 2 for riding in an outline' - although you may fail if you spend your time obsessing about the horse's head position :p which is easily done by novice riders (I have spent a deal of my time staring fixedly at the back of many a horse's ears).
Finally, contrary to CompetitionDiva's assumption, instructors who want to remain on the instructors' register do have to attend refresher courses (and they always seem to hold them in the draughtiest indoor school on the coldest day of the year).
I don't consider myself 'very BHS' at all; in fact years ago I applied for the job of BHS Development Officer in my region, was shortlisted out of 200 applicants to the final four, and went to the interview purely to tell them exactly what I, and my fellow equine industry workers thought of them! :D :p Strangely, they didn't employ me... :p
I just prefer proactive people - those who see a problem and try to solve it - rather than those who whinge ad nauseum without actually doing anything to help.
S :D
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Well said and totally agree with you
 
I passed my AI 21 years ago and as I have said in previous posts, it really has been one of th most useful qualifications I have. For a start, people recognise the fact that you are qualified to a certain level, which generally makes you employable. I haven't sat for the however many years thinking 'I'm qualified - fantastic!'. I have worked regularly with several professionals over the years to continue my training and make myself a better and more educated and effective rider and handler. Most of the trainers I have worked with have BHS qualifications and have built on them. These include accredited trainers in dressage and eventing
 
My riding and road safety test was a complete shambles. I was given a borderline pass for "explaining the diagonals wrong", which I am 99.99999% sure I didn't cos it wasn't a difficult question for me, its just one of those things that you know the answer to in the same way you know what trot is, or what bay is (although could have confused the lady by not giving the exact same word for word answer everyone after me who only learned the answer the week before to pass the test gave). Im sure other factors like the horse doing a mini rear with me on the road also contributed, but she only told me about the diagonals thing.
There was also a bloke accompanying her who was supervising the theory who gave half the class (who would otherwise have thoroughly failed, one girl got 1 the first time) the answers when they got them wrong. If it happened now I would have reported it, but as a child you dont really understand how to deal with it,

That said, Im still thinking about doing the stages cos the AI seems like the best way to get in to teaching, and I cant really hold those 2 people against the entire institution. I also dont think that they are any more flawed as examiners/an exam board than any other Ive sat exams with, and that didnt stop me taking GCSEs/Alevels/degree/professional qualifications, although I think the fact that you dont meet the examiner face to face or receieve any direct feedback from them probably stops a lot of the complaining about the terrible system for those tests.
 
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