Is 'join up' abusive?

I don't dislike people like Monty Roberts at all and believe they would probably use join up in an appropriate way for each horse, but the trouble is someone who doesn't know anything about the rest of the methods will see it on TV or whatever and think 'wow that's amazing I will try it on my horse' and lo and behold it will probably work, if 'work' is simply to achieve what they saw in the demonstration. However, since they don't know anything about whatever other methods they use around join up, they will go back to more familiar things like lunging, and the horse will get confused as GW describes above.

I do send horses away from me for bad behaviour, like biting, barging me in the field etc, and they usually shuffle back with head down and act respectful, I think that does mimic mare behaviour a bit, but I wouldn't make them run round and round for no good reason so I can 'forgive' them. It seems like a really selfish thing to do actually 'look, he loves me and wants to follow me!'.

I also wonder about horses who become so attached to their 'leader' that they are a bit lost without them, how sad since their owners might only be there an hour or two a day, wouldn't it be better to encourage independence...
 
Would a better analogy be repeatedly sending your dog out of the room until it started to show submissive behaviour?

My dogs would be confused and upset if I tried that, as they wouldn't have done anything wrong to be punished for.

If a horse in a herd sends another horse away, there will be a reason for it-either the chasing horse has poor social skills and doesn't like anything (as mentioned above), or doesn't like it's space being invaded by the horse it's chasing or the chased horse has done something wrong and is being excluded for that reason. How does the horse doing join-up know why he's being chased? If your horse is being a bolshy git and you chase him off, then he probably gets why, but if you lead him nicely into your round pen, let him go then chase him, he's going to be a bit confused, surely? As for lungeing, I think most horses can tell if they're on a line or not.
 
' Caol Ila - If you metaphorically send the guy away and act distant, he will want to come back and be with you, whereas when you act "clingy" and clearly want him around, he's not as interested.

Then I got older and wiser, met a lovely man, and realised that this is a rubbish analogy for a relationship and you really need to just not date douchebags.'

This made me laugh a lot, and so true!

I had a boyfriend who did a lot of 'join up' type antics sending me away and me coming back like a kicked puppy, makes me cringe! Glad I realised that does not make for a healthy relationship!
 
Not a fan of join up or Monty Roberts went to a demo he was doing fairly recently and I have to say was surprised at the amount of head yanking there was with the pressure halters. I thought it was excessive and not something I would allow with my horses ever.

As well as being extremely boring to watch,it is pretty easy working any horse in an enclosed small area, and from listening to the cases they were showing it took weeks on end to get anywhere with them and I think you would be able to do it in this time frame with sensible handling and backing methods, I would love to see the horses they spent all the time yanking without the pressure halters on though.
 
So the next question might be 'is riding abusive?' Surely a horse thinks he has a predator on his back the whole time?

Next question - 'Is jumping a horse abusive?' Have you watched how many 'yanks' in the mouth competion horses get as they come around the corners or into the fences?
 
Bundle20 said:
So the next question might be 'is riding abusive?' Surely a horse thinks he has a predator on his back the whole time?

Next question - 'Is jumping a horse abusive?' Have you watched how many 'yanks' in the mouth competion horses get as they come around the corners or into the fences?
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This is relevant to 'join up', why?
 
Bundle20 said:
So the next question might be 'is riding abusive?' Surely a horse thinks he has a predator on his back the whole time?

Next question - 'Is jumping a horse abusive?' Have you watched how many 'yanks' in the mouth competion horses get as they come around the corners or into the fences?
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Wagtail said:
This is relevant to 'join up', why?
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if you over analyse everything we do with horses you can pretty much label everything as abusive.;)

I don't think of join up as cruel or abusive but i think it is hugely overused and possibly over rated. As a tool to use with wild untouched mustangs is probably it's best use, with the majority of handled horses it's unnecessary. I don't really rate any method which is based on a set of actions which are applied to each and every horse regardless. Horses may all have the same instincts but they all have different personalities and i don't think join up takes that into account.
 
I don't think many people understand join up, or do it correctly. All this "cruel chasing horses around" :rolleyes: nonsense, that's not how it's done and if you're seeing that then you're watching someone who has no clue. Join-up should be a one-shot deal. It's not something that needs to be repeated and it should only be an option for the odd horse, not every horse. As to it being cruel, for sure it can be very cruel! Just like reins in the wrong hands, you'll always see bloody fools trying to do something with a horse when they don't have any idea why they do it or what they hope to achieve by doing it. I come into contact with a huge amount of horses and over my lifetime I've done join up with maybe 10, so a very small fraction. It's helped these horses. It's just another "tool" I have in my kit which might not come out very often but it's there as an option. Do I see it as similar to human relationships, no absolutely not. You can't compare humans to horses.
 
Pale Rider said:
Horses/humans, humans/horses. Both are so totally different and poles apart.
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This. I don't think humans and horses can be compared in the same way. A horse is a heard animal and its natural instinct is to place themselves at the top of the pecking order. For me, join up is good when you get a new horse to establish a pecking order between you and your horse. In the wild, horses don't meet a horse and are immediately mutual grooming and having a good scratch. You need the respect and bond to do these things first. But with humans, you don't meet someone and start kicking off with them or being weary of them do you? Totally different things.

Also lunging, I don't think its abusive at all.I use side-reins, double lunge the lot. Don't see my horse in any discomfort or pain. The only time she was scared was when I first got her and she hadn't had a whip used since her racing days. De-sensitized and once she worked out the whip had nothing to do with her she chilled out.
 
^ spring feather. I think that's the general consensus. It's okay if you know what you're doing, do it once and with a particular type of horse.
I think join up is cruel.... By the many people who use it without knowing what they are doing. Far too overused and badly. It's sold as a quick solution and isn't in most cases. And is often repetitively used. Personally IRL I've only witnessed teens or "absolute animal lovers" doing it with no concept of what its teaching.

Like others have said I take aspects but for different reasons, if my horse pulls a face or shows teeth, shell be backed the hell up. Not to get all cuddly bit quite the opposite. Equally ill wander away to get them to come over if no attention, if they want to come over they get scratches, I don't need to chase them for it. I don't believe any of mine and many others benefit from being chased away to then bond. In fact I know one of them would simply then go after another horse to pick on, or sulk and hoon round in a school, she doesn't do "telling offs". On a lead or lunge and its work, totally different.

I think most things can be used wrongly, spurs, lunging, whips, all have their place when worn and used by the right person and horse, but join up seems to be marketed towards completely the wrong market. It is not, in my opinion, something which should be learned off a YouTube clip...
 
Personally, I have never felt the need to do Join Up with my horses. I think many people watch Monty R on tv, think they need to 'join up' with their horse and start chasing the poor animal round the sand school without the faintest clue of what they are doing. And why anyone would think that it would be beneficial to repeatedly do join up with a horse is beyond me.
So, from that premise, I guess it could be classed as abusive.
 
What an interesting question.
I tried it with my horse once in the first week of having her following a suggestion. Only did it for about 10 minutes. Seemed to work ever so slightly.
Never felt the need to do it further/again.
 
I have only ever used a kind adaptation of join-up in order to catch new horses, basically by following them about slowly for a bit (minuets or an hour at most) then walking away from them to entice them to follow. Can't say I can see much value in it otherwise, and the whole 'show it who's boss' attitude is the biggest problem I have with all the American Miracle Trainers - Except Mark Rashid, whom I have the utmost respect for and have yet to hear a bad report about.
 
Abusive? There are many things more abusive than chasing a horse around a small circle for a bit until it gives up. Pretty pointless, in the larger scale of things, 'tho. Why not just train it?
 
Definately not abusive.
Must not forgot horse don't think like humans they don't have relationships like humans that why natural horsemanship give horses horseanality not personality...
Join up is effectively the exact same routine that happens in the wild.. Our tamed horses still function at first as wild horses... Can't forget that:)
 
I'll hold up my hands and say I tried it with one of my ponies when he first arrived, got it very wrong and ended up with a pony that still is not easy to handle

So I agree it can be very damaging

Not sure I would say abusive though

I'd never try it again thats for sure, its not as easy as watching a few videos and buying a couple of books - I was very stupid to think it was
 
Fascinating to read as have someone coming to try and join up with my foal. Since joining a herd she now understands the other horses behaviour having only ever been in with her mother before. Her issue is that as soon as she is asked to move away/ over at all then she turns and attacks people. It is impossible not to give ground when you have feet round your head and I don't think she has ever put her ears forward! She hasn't been abused, just not handled enough or with patience. In the weeks I have had her she has improved massively but does not seem to have any respect for me or my space even when getting bucketed on the backside (in fairness she had reversed up to me kicking out). I feel join up is worth a go but if it works enough to let me handle her conventionally then that's the only time I will do it, she isn't going to be treated in that way forever, just quietly and firmly handled. If it doesn't then I think again.
 
This is quite an interesting quote I found on 'tinternet 'Dominance hierarchies and dominance disputes and testing are a fundamental characteristic of all social groups... But perhaps only we humans learn to use punishment primarily to gain for ourselves the reward of being dominant'
 
Dry Rot said:
Horses and dogs are social animals, as are humans. There are surely lots of parallels or dogs and horses would not adapt so well to living and working with us..
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True.

A bit OT but feeling the need to say it lol :p

Dogs are carnivores tho, predators, they are a pack as they have more chance of bringing down large prey when part of a pack. Less effort for more food than them all going it alone and getting the odd rabbit.

Horses are prey animals - safety in numbers, the more of us there are the higher the chance the healthy ones will survive as the predators will pick off the weak and ill from the edge of the herd.

Humans are, well a totally different kettle of fish, and I for the most part have no idea why any of us act the way we do, myself included. Perhaps I need to understand my behaviour more in order to better my communications with animals....

Point being, yes we are all social creatures, but for hugely different reasons, and so I don't think we can say the behaviours from any one group - humans, pack predators or herd prey, will apply to any other group iyswim?
 
Rebels said:
Fascinating to read as have someone coming to try and join up with my foal. Since joining a herd she now understands the other horses behaviour having only ever been in with her mother before. Her issue is that as soon as she is asked to move away/ over at all then she turns and attacks people. It is impossible not to give ground when you have feet round your head and I don't think she has ever put her ears forward! She hasn't been abused, just not handled enough or with patience. In the weeks I have had her she has improved massively but does not seem to have any respect for me or my space even when getting bucketed on the backside (in fairness she had reversed up to me kicking out). I feel join up is worth a go but if it works enough to let me handle her conventionally then that's the only time I will do it, she isn't going to be treated in that way forever, just quietly and firmly handled. If it doesn't then I think again.
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I'm sure I'm teaching you to suck eggs but please be VERY careful doing this with a foal. In fact, I'm a bit surprised you've found an experienced, educated trainer experienced with very young horses for whom this is the first port of call. True, if it doesn't work you can go another way BUT don't assume "not working" will be without cost. While horses can seem endlessly forgiving, this is not always physically and mentally true.

Re the original question . . .um, don't we do a whole bunch of things to/with horses that would be termed abusive if you did them to a partner? I'm not picking fights and I think these are actually important discussions to have but horses are not people and won't benefit, long term, from being thought of as such.

As to join up, it seems to have become some mystical dance but it's one of those tools good horsemen have used in moderation to good effect (and less good ones perhaps not as judiciously to ill effect). I have used it, in context and with the training of experienced people, and it has it's place, although I don't think it's something that every horse or handler needs to do.
 
Rebels said:
Fascinating to read as have someone coming to try and join up with my foal. Since joining a herd she now understands the other horses behaviour having only ever been in with her mother before. Her issue is that as soon as she is asked to move away/ over at all then she turns and attacks people. It is impossible not to give ground when you have feet round your head and I don't think she has ever put her ears forward! She hasn't been abused, just not handled enough or with patience. In the weeks I have had her she has improved massively but does not seem to have any respect for me or my space even when getting bucketed on the backside (in fairness she had reversed up to me kicking out). I feel join up is worth a go but if it works enough to let me handle her conventionally then that's the only time I will do it, she isn't going to be treated in that way forever, just quietly and firmly handled. If it doesn't then I think again.
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Foals are funny things. They learn to respect other horses, but this is not always transferred to humans. Why should it be? They learn to move out of another horse's space, and that they are well and truely at the bottom of the pecking order, but then you can get the odd one (like yours) that thinks that they are above YOU in the pecking order. And why not? You are smaller and weaker, and they have learned that this is how it works from the perspective of a horse. I am not experienced enough with foals to offer advice on this. But what I have learned from the foal at my yard, is that I have to be MUCH firmer with him than any adult horse. He is very 'bitey', will lay his ears back and take a good bite out of you if you do not assert your leadership. He doesn't do it to me any more as he has learned that he gets a good elbow or a quick (upwards) slap with the back of my hand. But he will try it with everyone new. He's a lovely boy really, but as he is destined to be at least 17.2 hh, needs very firm handling.
 
tankgirl1 said:
True.

A bit OT but feeling the need to say it lol :p

Dogs are carnivores tho, predators, they are a pack as they have more chance of bringing down large prey when part of a pack. Less effort for more food than them all going it alone and getting the odd rabbit.

Horses are prey animals - safety in numbers, the more of us there are the higher the chance the healthy ones will survive as the predators will pick off the weak and ill from the edge of the herd.

Humans are, well a totally different kettle of fish, and I for the most part have no idea why any of us act the way we do, myself included. Perhaps I need to understand my behaviour more in order to better my communications with animals....

Point being, yes we are all social creatures, but for hugely different reasons, and so I don't think we can say the behaviours from any one group - humans, pack predators or herd prey, will apply to any other group iyswim?
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Yes, I can see exactly what you mean but instead of concentrating on the differences, perhaps think of the similarities? Then consider evolution?

If mammals have similar blood circulation, nervous systems, skeletal structure, etc., isn't it just possible that they also have some behaviour patterns in common or is Nature so inventive that it starts again from scratch with each different species?

That is what I find so interesting about the whole subject! It becomes even more fascinating when you start training different species and find that techniques that work for one can often (but not always) be successfully applied to another.

The differences can be even more interesting -- for example how horses think in straight lines! It took mine ages to realise that they had to go out at a tangent to find the gate when coming up from the bottom field. Or for a yearling to realise that just because he banged his feet on a six inch high rail, it really was possible for him to step over it if he tried!:D:D:D

Have you Googled "Comparative psychology" yet? Maybe you should.;)
 
Rebels said:
Fascinating to read as have someone coming to try and join up with my foal. Since joining a herd she now understands the other horses behaviour having only ever been in with her mother before. Her issue is that as soon as she is asked to move away/ over at all then she turns and attacks people. It is impossible not to give ground when you have feet round your head and I don't think she has ever put her ears forward! She hasn't been abused, just not handled enough or with patience. In the weeks I have had her she has improved massively but does not seem to have any respect for me or my space even when getting bucketed on the backside (in fairness she had reversed up to me kicking out). I feel join up is worth a go but if it works enough to let me handle her conventionally then that's the only time I will do it, she isn't going to be treated in that way forever, just quietly and firmly handled. If it doesn't then I think again.
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How interesting. My youngster lived with his mother before he was weaned. He had PLENTY of handling, but he was very opinionated and rather too handy with his teeth and hooves. As soon as I separated him from mum and put him in with a foal his own age, he became a MUCH nicer person and he never bit or kicked again. I imagine having another foal to 'spar' with directed his energies in a more positive direction.
 
Have joined up with many different types of horses during courses i have been on. Never using foals or under 2.

I wouldn't say it was cruel, but has to be done properly. There is a lady I know that meddles in between Parelli and other weird stuff!!!. she chases her horse most weeks up the field with her carrot stick, not in a controlled area. She wonders why the horse hates her.
 
Is "join up" abusive? Probably not.

It is possible to achieve the same result using other means? Yes.

It it preferable to achieve the same end using other means? If that means no sending away or chasing, then for me, yes :)

So the question for me isn't whether it's abusive or whether it works, but whether you can get the same outcome in a lower key and less confrontational manner :)
 
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