Is long reining really that important

[Brambridge04]

if they lunge well?

 

[JanetGeorge]

if they lunge well?

Put it this way: we back about 40 horses a year - our own, and other people's! Never had a failure yet, and never had an unhappy owner - or buyer!

And we don't long rein - at all! Not saying we never would - but I don't believe it's a necessary part of backing - and in some cases it can be counter-productive! (It's also too much like hard work - all that walking!! )

Why do I think it's counter-productive?? Because far too many horses come onto the forehand and behind the bit as a result! Because some horses can't tolerate the long reins and 'run on' - meaning you HAVE to pull to stop them! And because it's very difficult to balance the forward aids - so that a horse moves forward properly from behind!

There are a few (a very few!) people who can do it WELL! Most people shouldn't even attempt it IMHO!

 

[Dancing Queen]

i didnt long rein mine, but mine was so easy to do! this one i think may cause me a few more problems - he is a bit too clever for his own good!

 

[Brambridge04]

JanetGeorge - Just would like to say thank you for your previous bitting and lunging advice, she now totally accepts all tack / bit and is happy and very wet mouthed when bit is in and take it first time. She is also lunging like a little star and walks and trots but is having a few issues with stand (just keeps walking) but gets it after told a few times.

Has been sat on and was fine, just want few tips on getting her used to leg contact etc....

 

[Sportyspots]

Personaly I think it's invaluable. Too many people can't hack out on own, have nappy horses etc and long reining teaches them independance. I'm very much in the minority as I long rein before lunging as I don't want to do circles too early and find it easier to then lunge with 2 reins as can use for steering, breaks etc and already have voice control. I also start lateral work on long reins before even getting on youngsters. Going back over 20years ago I worked for a large breaking yard where we did weeks of long reining in strings round the roads. We also did lots round pen work before anyone in UK had heard of Monty Roberts. However having read many of Janet Georges posts I have a lot of respect for her, I'm just an amature and don't have people paying me to back any horses let alone 40 odd a year!

 

[spacefaer]

I've always long reined mine - I find it useful in teaching rein aids and as a previous poster said, independence in walking on in front of me. I find that if the horse is used to voice aids coming from behind them, then they're more prepared to accept them once you're on top and encouraging them forward.

I'm lucky in having quiet lanes and a farm to walk round with them, so they get used to being out and about, away from the school.

Having said that, I'm sure there are horses who don't need it, and don't benefit from it, as Janet George has said. It may also be a breed issue, as I've mostly started TBs or near TBs, not ID types who are generally more accepting and civilised!

I've nearly always been backing my horses by myself (or with non horsey mother on the ground) - don't know if that's an influencing factor too, in that I have no one to help lead them out ..... I start by lunging with 2 reins, then straighten them up and walk off to one side or them, then behind them.

 

[JanetGeorge]

JanetGeorge - Just would like to say thank you for your previous bitting and lunging advice, she now totally accepts all tack / bit and is happy and very wet mouthed when bit is in and take it first time. She is also lunging like a little star and walks and trots but is having a few issues with stand (just keeps walking) but gets it after told a few times.

Has been sat on and was fine, just want few tips on getting her used to leg contact etc....

That's a good start. Important NOT to use your legs much at all when starting - you want your horse to be 'light' to the leg. I HATE it when I see people on youngsters kicking so hard the poor bu**ers are grunting!!

Give a light squeeze and use your voice aids - and hype them up a bit (sound excited) if she is slow to respond. We will have a helper with a lunge whip behind a youngster going free to encourage them forward rather than have the rider kick!

With reinforcing the 'stand', use your neckstrap. Pull on that (NOT the reins) and repeat the verbal command. They soon 'get it' and it's very handy if they DO spook and take off (bloody pigeons!) - you just pull the neck strap and say 'whoa' - leaving mouth alone.

Too many people can't hack out on own, have nappy horses etc and long reining teaches them independance.

I'd agree it has its uses if done properly - the problem is too many people CAN'T do it properly. I used to do it - years ago - just found it didn't give me any real advantages. And now I have a gammy leg, I can't walk fast so it's out altogether! Can't say I miss it - I'd rather ride than walk!

We take our just backed out with a sensible companion (usually another 3 year old who has been backed 6 weeks longer!) When it's safe, baby goes in front! They never nap - napping is learned behaviour - we make sure they don't learn it!

 

[millitiger]

mine are all started with long reining and no lunging at all really.

it is horses for courses- I don't like youngsters going around in circles but like them to have some muscle built up before sitting on them so mine are long reined around quiet roads/fields.

It also teaches them left and right before I get on which I find very handy.

 

[ofcourseyoucan]

i long rein mine for miles! i have a lolipop route which i use when breaking/backing. about 2 miles. they all long rein round the loop half roads half bridle path. once established on lunge and long rein i jump on half way round and ride back. all my babies hack out alone totaly unfazed, with good brakes and stearing! but yes it does depend on who is long reining. and the horse. no breaker is the same as the last! i always long rein in the menage and field before venturing out to establish the steering and brakes!

 

[bigboyrocky]

nope, i really dont see the use in it... think ive long reined 2 horses in my life?

 

[lialls]

Janet George or Bambridge can you point me in the right direction to find the info that Janet gave on bitting if its on a post please?

Janet George whats your process for backing youngsters then? I really like the sound of what you've said and would like to know more. Can PM me if you perfer

 

[Brambridge04]

It was on a pm. I will forward it to u. X

 

[JanetGeorge]

Janet George whats your process for backing youngsters then? I really like the sound of what you've said and would like to know more. Can PM me if you perfer

I don't mind sharing! The process itself is incredibly simple. The hard bit is assessing each individual's real temperament (laidback horses can actually be very frightened - and nervy types often take it in their stride) and judging the right time to move on.

I start with groundwork, of course - teaching the horse to lunge, initially on a cavesson, and working on a short rein but a large circle (lots of walking )

At this stage they learn voice aids - walk, trot, canter - and whoa! (Whoa being MOST important!) Once the lunging is starting to come, a roller is introduced, then a saddle. This stage normally takes between 1 and 2 weeks - depending on the individual. Partway through the lunging stage, teach horse to stand at mounting block while you get on and off mounting block, fiddle with stirrups, lean over, jump up and down, etc. etc.

All has to be calm - and repeated over and over. Every day there's a repeat of the previous days - and NO new step until everything horse has already done is calmly accepted.

When time comes to get on, that is the only time the process may change - depending on an assessment of the horse and his likely reaction to 'the predator on his back'. We have 3 different ways of dealing with the first sitting up/going forward - and if we pick the wrong one, someone ends up on the floor!

One is for helper to lead horse forward - initially on quite a small circle (easier for control) - rider holding neckstrap. This doesn't suit some horses, particularly those with 'trust' issues - they can't 'escape' - so they buck! We don't like bucking!

The second is to send the horse straight out on the lunge - rider again with no reins and just hanging onto the neckstrap. Because the horse can run, he doesn't buck. Once he's run a few circles and realises the 'predator' is still there but not hurting him, he slows down and your half-way there.

And the third is for the rider to act completely alone - no helper - gets on - lots of patting and talking and encourages the horse to turn one way or another with a combination of voice and an open rein. Again, horse is kept on a small circle - in walk - initially. That works well with big, forward going horses who are unlikely to be 'held' by the helper if they really panic - and it keeps their focus on the rider (who is always the person who has done the groundwork and who they have some trust in.) With the first two methods, it doesn't really matter if the helper or the rider is the one who has done the groundwork.

Once they've accepted the rider, it's just a case of using your voice aids - accompanied by the lightest of leg and rein aids, to get them going forward with a degree of confidence and control. We use the neckstrap a LOT - it's the main 'aid' (with voice) for stopping. And we'll use a sensible helper with a lunge whip to encourage forward movement if horse doesn't get the message. As soon as they'll walk, trot - and a teensy bit of canter - in the manege with reasonable consistency, they're out up the drive and around the yard, and then into the big, wide world with a sensible companion. Our own youngsters are fed from a tractor or land-rover, so they tend to be unfussed by traffic - visitors we do a bit of work on the farm first - hack them up the drive past a stationary tractor or car with engine running, then past same vehicle moving slowly etc.

Most take 3-4 weeks to get to the hacking out stage - my home-bred youngsters a bit less - and a horse that someone else has tried to back and screwed up, often rather longer.

But we don't work to a time-table. It takes as long as it takes. Once they're hacking, we have several useful 'assets'. 700 acres of woodland immediately opposite, where they learn to go up and down banks, over fallen trees, and NOT be scared of pheasants! And an unadopted road with a ghastly surface which no-one could drive up at more than 20 mph - even in an ATV!! It has donkeys, horses, flapping tin sheets on shed, farm machinery on verges, and a pack of very noisy and disobedient bearded collies. By the time a youngster will hack up THERE calmly, he'll go almost anywhere!

 

[lialls]

Thank you Bambridge and Janet. It sounds simple how you've explaned but its all about timing and reading the horses ture feeling and terperment which is the hardest part I guess. Thanks again.

 

[Brambridge04]

I also today did lots of hopping about with a foot in stirrups (as if i was mounting but not actually mounting)

 

[JanetGeorge]

It sounds simple how you've explaned but its all about timing and reading the horses ture feeling and terperment which is the hardest part I guess.

Exactly! Backing is simplicity itself - but it's the judgements and assessments you have to be constantly making that determine success/failure/broken neck!

One little story about how we got it wrong - AND with one of my own home-breds. Charlie (ID SH) was 3.5 years, 17hh, and was probably THE most laidback youngster I'd bred. He was a dope on a rope. Showed NO worries about the process up to the time the rider mounted. So we went with Method 1. I was the 'helper' on this occasion. Rider in saddle, no problem - I was patting him and talking to him. One step forward and he EXPLODED! I was flat on my back with 17hh horse bucking above me - managed to roll clear - rider sat about 8 big bucks before exiting stage left!

We thought about it - and remembered one incident when he was 2 - the only time he'd EVER misbehaved - over something he didn't understand. We figured he'd been concentrating on me - and lost focus on O. Suddenly, O. had disappeared and there was a monster on his back. So we went for Method 3 - he never put a foot wrong from then on. He was hacking out within a fortnight - and escorting other breakers 2 weeks after that - the original Mr. Laidback.

It was a salutary reminder that you can NEVER take anything for granted!

 

[Cedars]

Bumping this post - any further ideas? I'm REALLY not feeling this longreining lark....

 

[LouS]

I don't spend much time behind them but I do long line on a circle, kind of like lunging but with two lines but obviously much more scope to change direction etc. I have them nice and loose I don't hold the horse in just use them as a guide and its good for self carriage etc but as already said it is hard to do properly, people seem to get in a mess and hold the horse too tight etc.

I wouldn't back one without doing it but that's my personal preference, I'm good at long lining! Lunging has its place but I like the fact I can pretty much ride them from the ground with long lining and have more control over direction etc. I long line everything, not just babies, I love it.

 

[Cedars]

If you longrein on a circle, are you using a saddle or roller?

I am shockingly awful at it, nervous about being stood behind her, feel like I'm yanking on her mouth when I want to be teaching her a soft feel. I'm holding her quite tight, she's not really listening to my voice like she does on the lunge.

Need to decide whether just to pay my instructor to do it, or whether to just scrap it all together and go straight for riding.

 

[be positive]

You can use a saddle or a roller, I would get your instructor to come and get you going, if you are not confident the horse will know and lose confidence too. Its probably why she is not listening to you, long reining on a circle you can get them going more forward, do turns, go in and out, do straight lines when you want, its much more interesting than lungeing but does take confidence to do well.

 

[Goldenstar]

Long reining as in two lines lunging no I don't think it's important .
Long reining as is behind the horse taking it out and about with a helper , very good if your yards situation makes it safe but not essential unless you are breaking driving horses in which it's vital.

 

[Cedars]

You can use a saddle or a roller, I would get your instructor to come and get you going, if you are not confident the horse will know and lose confidence too. Its probably why she is not listening to you, long reining on a circle you can get them going more forward, do turns, go in and out, do straight lines when you want, its much more interesting than lungeing but does take confidence to do well.

My instructor has been 'starting her off' every time, then handing the reins to me, at which point Puz visibly loses confidence and goes all wibbly wobbly which I can't correct very well.

I want to learn how to do it at some point in the future, but not sure whether learning on a horse that is learning to is the right idea! Think need to get instructor to do whole sessions with madam.

 

[be positive]

Its certainly not essential that she does it with you for now leave it to your instructor , you can continue with what you find more beneficial. There is plenty of time for you to learn, she may trust you more once she is backed and more used to instructions coming from behind her/on top.
Some never get long reining, I had one I broke that would not lunge but long reined well, he was the easiest to back and ride away I ever had.
They are all different and the most important part of working with youngsters is recognising that and doing right by each one, they have not read the rule book

 

[LouS]

Hi Cedars, I use a roller or a saddle with my broken horses. But with a baby I'd introduce the saddle on the lunge then I introduce long lining with the saddle, it is much better for them in terms of self carriage, balance etc than lunging if you do it properly.

There's lots to it but some basic points. If using a saddle pull the stirrups down to a reasonable length, I use an old stirrup leather to tie the stirrups together under the belly so they can't come away too far, otherwise your stirrups will be flying everywhere when you use your lines! I like using a roller with my more experienced ones because I can put the lines through the high ring and it starts to become more like the angle from a set of hands.

I would stay in walk until you are really confident. I never have the lines in loops in my hands, I have them trailing on the floor this way it is much easier to change direction just be sliding my hands down etc, this seems to scare people but I have not once gotten stuck/tripped over etc, you just become aware of them. Decide where your circle is and stick to it, you need to bear in mind that if you let your horse get too close to you it becomes difficult to pull them back out with the outside line so you need to do your corrections as early as possible. They do start to hold their own circle if you keep correcting them, you shouldn't be holding them tight, there is no point, they won't learn anything. I tend to cool off at the end by walking them large around the school or just looping about but I very rarely gather the reins up and walk right behind them etc. I'd rather ride them out and about, I don't like the thought of long lining something on the road, but that's my personal issue.

If you want to PM me I can show you some photos of me doing it with mine so you can get more of an idea, I don't like posting photos publicly. If you're near me I'll even come and show you!

 

[Cedars]

Lou, I'll PM you! x

 

[MotherOfChickens]

it's not essential for backing no, but if you can do it well (and it's a skill) it's very useful for lots of reasons-hacking independently;ridden problem solving; working a horse effectively if you can't ride or they can't have a saddle on; introducing lateral work; working smaller ponies; rehabbing and oh yeah-for fun. I would always want to long rein prior to backing but it's personal choice.


I don't subscribe to the reins through low rings/stirrups methods-mine are long reined through top rings or terreted rollers although when starting off I go direct hand to bit as I feel it's safer, I start off long reining in a well fitting lunge cavesson.The only one who's never taken to it with me was a 17yo who has trust issues anyway.


seriously, if you have reins through rings/stirrups to bit it's essential you introduce it in a methodical manner, that's an awful lot of torque on a young horse's mouth if things go pear shaped.

 

[dominobrown]

Intially I thought it would say it is essential, but thinking on it, I have never done an awful lot of it with horses I have backed. Always done a little but not done hours and hours of it. At work however they do a lot of it to get them out and about and seeing traffic.
I have found a lot of horses (one cob in particular) was awful on the long reins, and I could of faffed for ages long reining it, however under saddle it was much better. I do think its beneficial, however I would fight on it for ages.

 

[fuzzle]

Ive never long reined before, but ii must say i have on my 3 half year old last year, i took her to a pro showjumper for breaking in and they taught me to long rein her, omg!!!!!! i really felt it has made such a big diffrence,if your taught correctly how to long rein you can lunge them as well with the long reins it really does help with the balancing. My personal advise would be find out whom is pro in your area and ask if they could teach you to long rein, its quite scarey first time you do it but after a few goes under supervision you will be glad you did it, it helped me and i feel that it helped my horse all i can say is give it a go but please get someone to teach you first and someone to be with you when you long rein your horse for the first few times, hey no harm in trying it may work for you!!!!

 

[MissTyc]

I am a long reining addict -- I just really enjoy it and use it to teach horses stuff before they are backed and then continue to use it after backing and beyond ... I don't think you HAVE to do it by any means, but it works for me and I find it so much fun!

 

[Cedars]

I have tried a few times, I just bloody hate it!

Have spoken to LouS, I'm going to try long reining on a circle as its something I feel much more confident with xx