is my vet being unreasonable?

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JenniferR

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I would be interested in opinions here please as I'm not sure whether I'm being unreasonable or the vet is. My horse went lame 18 months ago. Scans and x-rays taken by vet practice 1 and I was told they were clean as a whistle, nothing to see. Horse not quite right but improved after a week of bute but still 1/10 lame. 2 months ago horse goes more lame again on same leg. By this time I have changed to vet practice 2. Before we spend money on nerve blocks, more scans and x-rays etc (no longer insured for this leg), I ask for a second opinion from vet practice 2's orthopaedic consultant on the original scans and x-rays taken by vet practice 1. This takes over a month. Consultant has now reviewed the images and wants to talk to me about them. He will not talk to me on the phone. I must go to the hospital 100 mins round trip to see him as he wants to tell me face to face. He will not see me for 10 days. I've asked to know how serious the problem is as horse still lame and i'm worried. I am not allowed to talk to the consultant and he will not communicate in any way other than an appointment at the hospital in 10 days time (I've asked 3 times now). In the meantime I am imagining the worst!
 
Gosh, that does sound stressful.

Just a thought; if the old vet has made a seriously bad judgment call, or has missed something very obvious, or the new vet suspects negligence, then I would imagine this isn't the sort of conversation you'd have over the phone.

If the horse was in serious pain or imminent danger, I'm sure they would be providing care right away.

It could be something like horse needs xyz treatment and will be fine, but X-rays were never clear and vet needs to talk to you in person to discuss how you'll handle that.

If it is something that is going to turn into a legal dispute, you'll be glad that everything has been done correctly and properly though.
 
Thanks for your reply and reassurances. I'm not interested in getting into a legal dispute but that had crossed my mind too. Just want to know what is wrong with my beloved horse, how serious, what the future holds. Knowing that vet knows but won't tell me for days and days is torture! Perhaps the wait will be character-building! They are very good vets so I guess I just need to be patient.
 
Showing you the actual issue visually will help you, which is what i hope vet2 is implying.
 
Well, maybe seeing the issue might marginally help but I'm not a radiographer or a vet so probably not a great deal. When I smashed up my own knee, seeing pictures of it didn't really do much for me then either. I want him, the expert, to look at them and work out what to do. If he says he can see bone spavin (hypothetically) on the x-ray, I expect he can. I'm quite prepared to believe him and I'm not going to come to a different opinion to him when looking at them as I've no idea how to interpret x-rays. Now anything to do with managing the condition, yes please, I'd love to be educated, but x-rays aren't going to tell me, a non-expert, much. That's what I'm paying him for.
 
I would be cross too, I would prefer to be told what the issue is on the phone and a reason for having to make a 100 mile trip and a 10 day wait.

It may be that the consultant is a particularly eminent one? The same can be true of human consultants, that their time and expertise is so in demand that patients have to be assembled for them at a certain time and place?

It may be that he wises to show you something on the X rays?

Personally I think it more likely that the 1st vet has missed something, and they would prefer to see you in person to minimise the chances of you taking legal action, but that is probably just the cynic in me!

Perhaps email the consultant, and explain that you do not wish to travel (presumably without the horse) as you too are busy, and you would rather he explain on the phone. It may be just that the vets has a "system" and you have just been routed through the "normal channels".

The only other thing you could do is vote with your feet. If that vet does not offer a service you are happy with, then you pay for the service, so you do have a choice. I would be too curious to not go to the surgery though.
 
I'd ask him for his report in writing and if he won't provide it, don't pay because you haven't got the results. You're the customer.

I personally would not have accepted the delay you've had so far. Too busy to review a lame horse's case for a month? He shouldn't have taken the work on then.

I strongly suspect he's trying to protect a fellow vet.

Regarding not looking for compensation, please remember that if the initial investigation had identified the problem, the insurance would have paid out for the treatment you might now be told is necessary.
 
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Have you asked him why he isn't prepared to discuss with you by phone? And why there has to be such a delay when you have a horse clearly in pain? I would do it by email and press him for a response in the same medium - either his response to those questions or his diagnosis and prognosis/treatment options, so then you have a record. Phone calls are difficult because they can say whatever they like, in an email it has to be more considered.
 
Thankfully trip isn't quite so far, Red-1, 100 minute round trip not 100 miles! horse is not hopping lame, otherwise I would be making more of a fuss. 1/10 lame in field and 2/10 on outside of circle in trot. I was originally given a choice of a phone call or a face to face consult. I chose a phone call and timed it for my day off, but the vet's secretary said it could be any time after 12 and before 5.30. As I don't have mobile signal here, that would mean that I would have to sit by the phone all afternoon. Asked if we could narrow it down and at that point was told surgeon had changed his mind and now only a face to face would be offered. I've asked 3 times if he could give me a brief idea what the problem is and how serious it is before that meeting, but his secretary won't let me speak to him and says she can't tell me because she is not a vet! She just keeps telling me not to worry but I am because this all seems to add up to something major wrong.
 
JenniferR said:
Well, maybe seeing the issue might marginally help but I'm not a radiographer or a vet so probably not a great deal. When I smashed up my own knee, seeing pictures of it didn't really do much for me then either. I want him, the expert, to look at them and work out what to do. If he says he can see bone spavin (hypothetically) on the x-ray, I expect he can. I'm quite prepared to believe him and I'm not going to come to a different opinion to him when looking at them as I've no idea how to interpret x-rays. Now anything to do with managing the condition, yes please, I'd love to be educated, but x-rays aren't going to tell me, a non-expert, much. That's what I'm paying him for.
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I always believe in getting vets and doctors to show me x rays, send me test results etc. They are not that difficult to understand if the vet is talking you through it. For example who in the first vets said clean as a whistle? could have been anyone who glanced at them. I am afraid vets are far from infallible. Don't just believe them on face value, dig a little and get all the facts.

I wonder why he needs 10 days? what is he going to do in that time for example sort it out with your first vet?

I also wouldn't find the delays acceptable. I would e mail the practice manager (copy to the consultants secretary) and explain you are unhappy at the month it took to get the plates reviewed and now further unhappy about the 10 days until you can see him. It may be that it took them a month to get the tests from the previous vets. Ask them to treat this as a complaint and arrange for an immediate meeting. Point out that you are not satisfied with such a time delay when you still have a lame horse.

I would definitely visit even though it is time consuming and I would have a very long list of written questions so I didn't miss anything. Be prepared for your responses to all eventualities. Take someone with you and make sure they take notes. I would suspect he wants to meet you if there is a problem with negligence to smooth over the matter and to see if you are going to take it further. It is far easier to do that face to face. If that is the case say nothing however charming he is. Go home and think about it when you have the facts. Ask also for a written report. No written report no cheque to pay the bill.
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The xrays and scans were sent pretty immediately from first vet, paddy555, as I chased it up and they were at second vets the next working day. I was surprised 1st vet released them though. Good idea about insisting on a written report. I will definitely do that. Not sure I can bring myself to make a complaint though. Not very good at rattling cages and having changed vets once, want to stay with this one long term.
 
JenniferR said:
The xrays and scans were sent pretty immediately from first vet, paddy555, as I chased it up and they were at second vets the next working day. I was surprised 1st vet released them though. Good idea about insisting on a written report. I will definitely do that. Not sure I can bring myself to make a complaint though. Not very good at rattling cages and having changed vets once, want to stay with this one long term.
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They are your X-rays they have to release them if you ask .
The 2nd vet may be about to go on holiday it's that time of year
I have to say for a horse who has been lame that long I would have sat and waited for the call or been down to the surgery straightaway .
 
The fact that the vet's refuse to discuss the problem with you, and over the 'phone, must raise an eyebrow or two. It could be for any number of reasons, and whilst guessing is a pointless exercise, it would seem that perhaps you're new to the practice and if they haven't yet presented you with a bill for the work to date, or you've yet to settle the account, it may be that they're withholding what you need until you have a meeting. I'm quite sure that you will honour your debt, but they may not! . There are those, who when receiving bad news seem to think that the vet should share in their sadness and release them from their debt, though it doesn't sound like you're amongst them.

It may also be that the consultant used is a referral and just because a client fails to settle their account, that won't release the practice concerned from the debt. That's all just a shot in the dark, so perhaps a simple 'phone call to clarify that particular aspect may help.

Once you've established that their requirement that you attend their clinic isn't because they don't consider that your 'known' to them, then I'd point out that a lengthy drive to see them to be told what can just as easily be given over the 'phone, isn't on. In your shoes, I'd research the practice, find out who the senior partner is, speak to them and point out that their current policy is making life difficult; you could lay it on a bit thick, taking time away from a busy business or a job where being an absentee has your employers in a position where they can't find suitable cover, that sort of thing.

To answer your opening question, 'Yes it may well be that you're vet's being unreasonable'. To me is sounds as though the consultant is being a wee bit precious, but without the facts from their side, it's difficult to know. Will you post a reply when you can and let us know the diagnosis and perhaps the reason for such apparent intransigence? It must be very worrying for you, you have my sympathy, and the stance taken by the practice concerned isn't helping matters.

Alec.
 
tbh I think as a new client and wanting him to review the x-rays etc from 18 months ago I dont see that him wanting to meet you face to face to discuss the issue is a big problem - and vets are busy, I don't expect to get an exact time to get a phone call. I can quite envisage a vet whose new, unmet client is demanding being phone at x time deciding it would be easier just to book a consult time and do it all face to face.
What's 100min if it gives you answers? Then you can plan where you go next. Your other option of course and more sensibly would be to book your horse in to see him let him see the lameness and the pictures together. I presume you are expecting to pay for the consultants time in revieiwn gthe x-rays etc?
(Bear in mind as well in the nhs this is how it would work!)
 
Susie, it isn't about the inconvenience. I just want to know what's wrong with my horse. I've been with this practice for a year now so not that new a customer and all my bills for my 3 horses are paid. 10 days of torturous waiting when horse is lame and on box rest is my issue. I would be quite happy to drive 200 miles right now to find out. I made it clear that I would be happy to do the potential 5h wait for a call if it was more convenient for the vet. I made a very polite and very tentative enquiry whether the 5 hrs could be narrowed down a little. I was not the least bit demanding and probably never will be! It was the vet who decided to withdraw the call option not me. If I'd known they would do that, I would never have asked!
 
Alec Thank you for your kind thoughts. All bills are paid and I've been a customer for over a year so I hope they are not worried about payment.I will indeed post when I have the answer (if there is one!). Maybe I have to drive over there and be kept in suspense for so long to be told he can't see anything either!
 
It seems kind of pointless to review 18 month old X-rays if the horse has been sound in the interim. Even if the new vet has seen something it could be completely irrelevant to today's lameness.
 
I don't think you are being unreasonable at all, anyone in your situation would be apprehensive I'm sure. Is there a receptionist or someone who might be a little bit more empathetic towards you and maybe find out the reason for the face to face on your behalf? I would be tempted to call and say you are getting worried and could they perhaps put your mind at rest by explaining their process, its certainly not unreasonable. Good luck and i hope whatever they mystery is all about is straightforward and there is a good prognosis for your horse.
 
FfionWinnie said:
It seems kind of pointless to review 18 month old X-rays if the horse has been sound in the interim. Even if the new vet has seen something it could be completely irrelevant to today's lameness.
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Totally agree! A lot can change from a physiological point of view in that amount of time - both for the better or the worse. Also, new matters may have arisen in the interim.

Personally, I would not have wasted my money investigating a current lameness based on 18 month old information.
 
Possibly not, but it seems to have turned up some information of interest otherwise the surgeon wouldn't want to talk to me. Unless he just wants to ensure a fee for telling me there is nothing to see! It may seem an odd starting point but the logic was that there already existed a full set of scans and x-rays of the leg from stifle down. She is lame in exactly the same way as before. It seemed a relatively cheap and trouble-free (ha,ha) way of checking something wasn't overlooked, before we subject the horse to nerve blocks and spend a fortune (leg no longer insured) on more scans and x-rays. If something significant has been overlooked then possibly there is some way of getting someone else to pay for her treatment because I was told there was nothing to see and just get on and ride her and see what develops.
 
I think taking a look at the old xrays was a sensible starting point, if nothing showed there would be nothing to speak to you about, but if something was overlooked or as a comparison if new xrays showed several places of interest, as they were available it seemed a sensible approach bearing in mind that the lameness is similar and the limb is not insured.

My suspicions are he is going to try and cover the other vets back so will not want to put anything in writing that may point the finger or suggest negligence, they tend to stick together, unless they have "history" he may point out something when you meet then try and brush it off as probably irrelevant but needs investigating further, hope you get some answers and a treatment plan so you can move forward.
 
JenniferR said:
Possibly not, but it seems to have turned up some information of interest otherwise the surgeon wouldn't want to talk to me. Unless he just wants to ensure a fee for telling me there is nothing to see! It may seem an odd starting point but the logic was that there already existed a full set of scans and x-rays of the leg from stifle down. She is lame in exactly the same way as before. It seemed a relatively cheap and trouble-free (ha,ha) way of checking something wasn't overlooked, before we subject the horse to nerve blocks and spend a fortune (leg no longer insured) on more scans and x-rays. If something significant has been overlooked then possibly there is some way of getting someone else to pay for her treatment because I was told there was nothing to see and just get on and ride her and see what develops.
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I think this was a reasonable place to start, especially as the horse was not sound in the intervening period. To me the issue is that they don't want to see your horse again, but want to see you. That does not seem fair, when you are happy to speak on the phone. If I had transport I would rock up in 9 days time with my horse too, so anything needed to be done could be done at the time.

As the lameness has been going on for 18 months and is getting worse again not better, it may be that you will have to make a decision as to how to progress, and further investigations may be necessary for that.

When I needed contact with my vet I would email and ask for it to be forwarded to the vet in question. After a day or so I would start to call regularly until the email was answered. In this case I would like to know what necessitated my presence, and presumably the horse was expected too.

It all seems strange as it would be the separate Vet No 1 who had made the mistake-if there is one, not the current vet.

I use the email method as I was once a vet receptionist, mixed including equine, and one of my duties was to see to it that the vet did not be bothered by anxious owners. It was before email existed, but if an email is marked FAO X Vet, private and confidential, then it will likely be passed on. At least then you have a direct line of communication to explain your confusion and upset.
 
FfionWinnie said:
It seems kind of pointless to review 18 month old X-rays if the horse has been sound in the interim. Even if the new vet has seen something it could be completely irrelevant to today's lameness.
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I agree with this, and the only reason that the majority of people would do it, I think, would be to use it to base a claim against the original vet on. I think that's why he is refusing to speak to you, and you are going to find that something was missed and he is going too yete and cover the previous vet's backside.

I know you aren't insured, but I would be taking new x rays now, because you are going to need to know how much worse it's got mean time. I would be sending a very snotty email demanding to be told which part to x ray or scan, so that you don't have to redo the lot. This wait is unacceptable, especially as the horse is on box rest.
 
JenniferR said:
Alec Thank you for your kind thoughts. All bills are paid and I've been a customer for over a year so I hope they are not worried about payment.I will indeed post when I have the answer (if there is one!). Maybe I have to drive over there and be kept in suspense for so long to be told he can't see anything either!
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In that case I can see no earthly reason why they can't either pick a 'phone up or explain via e/mail their diagnosis and/or prognosis. From here and from what you've said, then yes they're being unreasonable. Have you asked them why they're acting as they are?

Alec.
 
ycbm, thanks for your useful thoughts. I hadn't really thought of it like that. I see now that I look like a litigious person looking for grounds to sue by asking, but all I wanted was to try to find out what was wrong with horse/narrow down where to look without doing the painful (and a little risky) business of nerve blocking. I've had this done before on a different horse and we've been none the wiser. I WILL definitely get new scans and x-rays done but was hoping if they had found something on old ones, that would tell me where to look rather than going down the nerve block route or doing the whole leg again.
 
Yete should have been 'try', no idea how that happened.

Your problem is you're too nice :)


I hope it's nothing too serious, by the way.
 
Your reply, ycbm, suddenly made it all clear. I now understand what vet must be thinking. He just thinks I'm the suing type. It's may be something not too serious, rather than so serious he has to see me face to face. I'll post what the vet says once I know!
 
I was going to agree that's why he doesn't want to put anything in writing, I'm not sure why he wouldn't talk to you on the phone though other than he wants to point at the bits he wants to show you?!
 
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