Is Otis Ferry fox hunting's worst enemy?

Irish_only, Humph and Janet George I agree, you've put it better than I could.
Cptrayers I do see your point about thinking more than one step ahead (which I think is what your getting at).
 
There are foxes in the first-class farming area where I live now and nobody, so far as I am aware, takes any action against them.
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Wellif there are NO shoots in your area, that MIGHT be true! (Although from conversations with some Cambridgeshire hunting folk, I understand that Cambridgeshire is not overly endowed with foxes!) However, EVERY game shoot in the country takes regular and efficient action against foxes - usually by stealth and at night - with snares and rifles. In fact I remember a very active LACS member from that area who left LACS when he came to the conclusion (from working in forestry) that there was FAR more snaring on properties that didn't have hunting, than on farms/estates that welcomed the hunt. As he felt snaring was FAR worse than hunting, he left LACS to join Jim Barrington's Wildlife Network.

As you are such a good friend of Robin Page, you will know that Robin supports foxhunting - to the degree where he has appeared in public debates supporting hunting. Robin is a devoted conservationist and KNOWS predator control is essential to conservation, and believes foxhunting is the most humane and environmentally friendly method of fox population management!
 
That's most likely because the farms in Cambridgeshire (forgive me for assuming that's where you farmed) are so enormous that they have stripped out all hedgerows so as to enable their oversized farm machinery space to manoeuvre that they have no wildlife whatsoever as their environment has been decimated.

If that's the hygienic and lifeless countryside that you seek to create throughout this green and pleasant land (albeit with an ill, mangey and ailing fox population), then that boosts my reasoning for being avidly pro hunting.

Janet, thank you for posting that. That's fascinating - I never knew that the storming of the house of commons was unplanned as such. Your post was not only interesting but enlightening.
 
Irish_only, Humph and Janet George I agree, you've put it better than I could.
Cptrayers I do see your point about thinking more than one step ahead (which I think is what your getting at).
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I just can't see an end to it SueEllen, and it's not a nice picture either way. There just doesn't seem to be any middle ground for anyone to meet on. It really does seem to come down in the end to "we believe it's right" and "we believe it's wrong". In an argument like that it would be normal to leave the status quo, but unfortunately for hunters with hounds Labour wanted some votes and it was popular with Labour voters. It's a right can of worms now, and no mistake!
 
oh come on how can you say death isnt swift with hounds ? , we come up to this again and again , have you ever seen a fox killed close up i.e within 3ft of you at ground level ? is it not very quick ? [/quote]

Thank you Skiddaw Lad, you've said exactly what I would have said! Equally, shooting foxes doesn't differentiate between the healthy fox and the ill fox, therefore not offering the natural selection that hunting does and it relies heavily on having a good shot.

With hunting with dogs, the fox either escapes unharmed or it dies, a quick and complete death. If shot at, the fox either survives, the shot having missed, it survives wounded, probably to die a slow and painful death, or, if it was lucky to have been reached by a good shot, it has instant death. Fox hunting eliminates that miserable middle option.

The prolonged chase that you talk about is not necessarily stressful, I've seen masses of video footage of foxes being hunted where they stop to calmly look around, assess the situation and react accordingly - that's hardly the panicked image that you portray of a hunted fox. As I said before, the fit and healthy foxes will get away.

Although I abhor the lack of natural selection that it affords, I agree that GOOD shooting and lamping probably results in a swift death but I fear the increase in shooting foxes that a continuation of the ban will attract as this will undoubtedly result in a reduction of the quality of the shot and thus an increase in the injured foxes suffering mindlessly in agony for days until the gangreen takes over. Sadly there is no guarantee that foxes will always be shot at by good shots.

Bad hounds hunting a fox will mean the odds of survival of that fox are greater, whilst a bad shot aiming at the fox will most probably result in an injured fox. You said it yourself, that "good shooting" and a "decent lamper" and sadly that's the stipulation which cannot be guaranteed.
 
"That's most likely because the farms in Cambridgeshire (forgive me for assuming that's where you farmed) are so enormous that they have stripped out all hedgerows so as to enable their oversized farm machinery space to manoeuvre that they have no wildlife whatsoever as their environment has been decimated.

If that's the hygienic and lifeless countryside that you seek to create throughout this green and pleasant land (albeit with an ill, mangey and ailing fox population), then that boosts my reasoning for being avidly pro hunting."

Yes, I farmed in Cambridgeshire (and still do on a very modest scale) and all three of my farms have the exact layout (with hedges, etc.) now as they had at the time of the respective Inclosure Acts.

And I can assure you that, where I live now (in the Fens close by the River Cam) is as rich in wildlife as anyone would wish.
 
"P.S. We're getting way away from Otis Ferry. How about I volunteer to be fox hunting's worst enemy? "

Too late - sadly there are at LEAST 10 MFH's already doing the job far better than you could!

"unfortunately for hunters with hounds Labour wanted some votes and it was popular with Labour voters. It's a right can of worms now, and no mistake! "

Actually, that's not quite true. Blair and his 'inner circle'were ready to let the bill, as amended by the Lords, go through, but they were facing a rebellion from their back-benchers on an important issue, so allowed the Parliament Act to be used (quite incorrectly!) to push the original bill through - to BUY back-bench support! (Which is why we ended up with such a useless bit of legislation!)
 
Does anyone have any stats for what proportion of fox deaths used to be from hunting with hounds, snaring and shooting? Likewise, some stats on numbers of foxes which die later from gunshot wounds are crucial to this discussion. I have ridden in the countryside for over 30 years and lived in an area with very active lamping for 19 and I have never seen a fox injured by gunshot, just plenty of healthy ones and some road kill.

I always understood, perhaps wrongly, that one of the main arguments put forward for continuing hunting with hounds was that so few foxes are actually caught? It that was true, then it would not support the argument for resuming hunting with hounds on humanitarian grounds, but is it true?

Humph I include the chase in the definition of the kill to judge whether it is swift, purely on the basis of the foxes that I have personally seen running when I have hunted. They looked to me as if they were running for their lives and on that basis I decided that fox hunting was not for me. I notice also that you do not comment on digging out and putting terriers in. And we haven't discussed cubbing, where the cubs are trapped inside a copse by a ring of riders and the hounds are put into the copse to kill as many as they can. None of those can be described as a quick death, surely?

I get the point on natural selection, but I see it balanced by The Gunman's point that he is shooting the actual fox causing the farmer's problem. I get the point about death from after-effects of shooting but see it balanced by repeated chases throughout the lifetime of a fox and the possibility of being dug out with spades or dragged out by terriers to be shot or thrown to the hounds.

I see the chasm between antis and pros but I see no way to close it :confused:
 
Skiddaw Lad, The Gunman described how he lays in wait at the place the fox attacks. That's how he knows it's the right one.

Cubbing? Well people have been saying how the fox has a 70% chance of escape, but no-one has mentioned cubbing, where riders surround a copse and make lots of noise to drive cubs back into a copse when they are trying to escape the hounds that have been put in to kill them. It's not balanced to mention 70% escape of adult foxes without mentioning cubbing.

I take your point that foxes have gone somewhere to hide and die, but I am confused about why you are seeing them under hedges and my friends and I are not, (if they are there) when we ride all over the hills.

"Cruel" is not a word I have ever used in this discussion, so please don't quote me as having done so.
 
Skiddaw Lad, I nominate you as Otis Ferry's replacement. From what I gather, you are a normal countryman, with whom I would imagine people can relate, obviously well educated in the ways of the countryside and bursting with knowledge and able to put your point across fluently and without antagonism. Janet, how can we get this man in the public eye?
 
MR. WOOLLARD, try answering my questions for a start, if you wish to become an MP then you will need this ability! also, try coming to the hilly regions of Wales where sheep farming is sacrosanct, find out the opinions on the ban etc. you might have a more informed view on sheep farming.
 
Skiddawlad you don't ride, and therefore you may not know that because we are on horseback wild animals do not fear us and we see many kestrels, buzzards, one kite, barn owls, little owls, foxes, badgers (including red ones), stoats, mink (unfortunately), deer (wonderfully) and hare (magically) at close range. If I can spot a 4 inch long leveret nest in long grass, then it is a mystery to me, if there are foxes lying around dying of gunshot wounds, why in 19 years I have never seen one.

What I do as an unpaid voluntary job to help my community has no bearing on this discussion whatsoever. JPs are ALL ordinary people, bricklayers, nurses, teachers - try it - you might find it enjoyable to give something back to your community.
 
no, you hadn't answered my question at all as well you know,
(dare i say it, a typical politician-)you are lucky that you never had fox problems but then we are talking of a totally different way of life and terrain. the breed of sheep is immaterial- i accept the fact that you are anti hunting of course but it makes not the slightest bit of difference to our way of life and the fox population(which is a bit too healthy around here!)will be kept under control in the way it has been for generations before us.
 
do not patronise me!i know full well what you wrote on page 3, it was no answer to my questions and i couldnt care less what goes on in the House,its nothing different from how it was in the early 1900s when my great grandfather was there, ( i'm not just an ignorant welsh hill farmer you see!)i wish you a happy new year and hopefully there wont be over much campaigning on these forums.
 
probably because you dont want to , try living in south cheshire then you will find them .
you being a jp has everything to do with this , you are supposd to be an impartil judge of things but you only believe what you want and not any evidence from other people
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I do live in South Cheshire, in an area where there is a lot of lamping, a daytime shooting club, and every farmer has a shotgun and there is no fox hunting with hounds. I would notice a red creature lying half dead somewhere because my own cat is red and fox size and I would be concerned that it was him.
 
I'm so sorry Skiddaw Lad, I mistook living on the southern border of Cheshire not four miles from the Staffordshire boundary to the south of me as being in south. I am of course East Cheshire. But why there should be fewer shot fox corpses around here, where shooting is absolutely rife, than in South Cheshire, is rather beyond me I'm afraid.

It's a shame it's too frozen to hunt today or I would have better things to do with my time than sit here splitting hairs with you.
 
This is so the right place for a discussion such as this.Hunting wild animals with dogs is both archaic and barbaric and should be left in the past with other pastimes such as sending little boys up chimneys and dunking "witches"

There is no way I would vote Labour in the next election because of their appalling record but neither would I vote Tory if they intend to placate a few by repealing the hunting act. I want a party who will put a proper ban in place, a party that can think for itself.
 
better follow Mr.Woollard then!!i cant see why you bother objecting sooo highly on what is a hunting forum- you aren't "discussing"at all, you are insulting and immature in your reasoning. what i would call a wind up merchant!
 
You are showing your youth and immaturity salimali! I see no insults???? and where better a place than a hunting forum to find aggressive pro's who can only resort to name calling in place of proper recourse.
Rather like Otis Ferry , is it not!!? "Just ride roughshod over them all...soon change there minds."

I follow whom I choose. Free thinking individuals who have USED their imagination not just spoonfed tripe from birth and never had an independant thought only to follow, bleating, where others go ahead.
 
considering my age i think not,you insult hounds for a start by caling them dogs, also to say hunting is archaic and barbaric i showing your ignorance too, and you other little comments. i neither know nor care what equestrian sports you take part in and/or support but i wouldn't make rediculous comments on it as i probably wouldn't have that particular knowledge.DO NOTinsult mein saying i have been spoonfed tripe from birth and have led a very independent life thank you very much! you know nothing whatsoever about me so give it a rest.by the way, what is this name calling you accuse me of, if it was the fact you are a wind up merchant, well, thats just what you are!!
 
And from someone who lives in the neighbouring constituency to the one you intend to fight, do you really think that hunting features in the top ten priorities that the average voter has in mind. We are facing a decade of cuts and higher taxes that is pretty much unprecedented, members of the Royal Anglian regiment our local infantry regiment are being killed fighting a messy war in Afghanistan, we have MPs who can't even be trusted to do their expense forms correctly, hospital trusts reliant on donations and the main plank of your manifesto appears to rest on attacking hunting.

I'll be honest with you, I am unashamedly pro-hunting, I want to see the ban repealed. However when it comes down to it there are far more important issues in my life when it comes to casting my vote. If you don't get in touch with the realities faced by the people you claim to want to represent then I can't see you getting your deposit back.
 
considering my age i think not,you insult hounds for a start by caling them dogs, also to say hunting is archaic and barbaric i showing your ignorance too, and you other little comments. i neither know nor care what equestrian sports you take part in and/or support but i wouldn't make rediculous comments on it as i probably wouldn't have that particular knowledge.DO NOTinsult mein saying i have been spoonfed tripe from birth and have led a very independent life thank you very much! you know nothing whatsoever about me so give it a rest.by the way, what is this name calling you accuse me of, if it was the fact you are a wind up merchant, well, thats just what you are!!
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Hmmmm? it seems we may be talking mental age here, forgive my genuine mistake. And maybe a borderline aggression problem?? Memory problems? It seems the list may be endless. I think possibly caused by an overdose of living in soap land??
 
do not concern yourself anymore- i've had enough of your disgusting insults which i assume you type with a grin on your face, i am not lowering myself to your level of trivia so i am putting you on the ignore button. you i think have a personality problem with a huge gorilla on your back- anyhow, adios- find another mug to impose your vile, childlike abuse on.
 
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