Is position everything?

N

not_with_it

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 April 2002
Messages
4,019
Location
Yorkshire
Visit site
After looking through recent issues of H&H I have noticed that a lot of dressage riders have appauling positions. Now I have always been taught to sit correctly and I can notice a difference in my horse if my position slips. These people are competing at medium and above and winning.

Instructors always drill it in to people that your position affects everything but if you can get to advanced with a bad position does that mean that position isnt everything?
confused.gif
 
Balance and feel is more important IMHO. The perfect position should make your balance much better, but we are all a bit differently put together and can't always acheive it. However anything to far from perfect won't help at all and getting closer to perfect will in almost all cases improve your balance and riding over-all. So a good position is important, but not everything!
 
Your position does help, yes. Balance and the feel of the horse is important, but not everything I suppose.
But if those people can compete at a high level and win, they must be doing something right, or just have a dream horse!
 
I don't know K&R, You look ar Michel Robert, Ludger, Marcus F, Marcus E, Ben Maher e.t.c they are all immaculate riders.

Re. dressage, I agree if you're talking about the lower levels (medium/advanced medium e.t.c) there are some dodgy positions reported in H&H but if you look at the worlds best they are beautiful riders so yes I think position matters.
 
Well look at tim stockdale for example - top top rider who i adore and think very highly of - but rides with very hunched back.
Cant think of any other specific examples but watching olympia for example - top riders who obviously are v successful - i saw lower legs disappear over the horses back (well not quite but you know what im saying) i saw hunched backs, heavy hands, one rider (cant remember name, was foreign) (fairly hefty) practically chucked himself out of the saddle over every jump
And yet it obviously works for them?
 
My dressage instructor is an amazing rider - she can make most horses go better for her than anyone else. However she looks like a sack of potatoes when riding! She has a feel for a horse and knows just what to do but she doesn't look pretty.
 
But K&R eventers jump a max of 1.30m showjumping, the SJ'ers are jumping over 1.60m, it would be interesting to see how many eventers lower legs slipped at that height.
 
[ QUOTE ]
But K&R eventers jump a max of 1.30m showjumping, the SJ'ers are jumping over 1.60m, it would be interesting to see how many eventers lower legs slipped at that height.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree - can't imagine being able to keep legs from going at the height
crazy.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I agree re. pics in H&H I've looked at some of the "lean back & brace with heels coming up" positions and thought how mortified i'd be if they printed one like that of me!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, or toes up the horses nose. I too would be so humiliated if I saw myself in H&H looking pants.
 
I think you have to have been taught the correct position before you can adapt it dependant on which horse you are riding. Geoff Billington has an appauling position on the flat...however...you can't fault him over a fence, and in his discipline that is what counts!
 
The Spanish riding School say that before you should be allowed to influence the horse, you must be able to sit on it without influencing it, and that's my view.
Once you have achieved a secure balanced position, you can use legs, arms etc to get what you want, but you need to be able to sit near enough perfectly first.
Saying that most people have body differences so that has to be taken into account, it's a damn sight easier to get that perfect position if you are skinny with the long legs of a six footer!
I think ensure your weight is central, your bum is the thing you are sitting on not tipping forwards, and the basic line from elbow to bit is there.
When riders train they lift their arms, move their legs to extremes sometimes to encourage the horse to comply, it's creeping into competitions but the likes of Isabel Werth sit beautifully and don't seem to do a lot of incorrect aids either.
 
I'd be inclined to say maybe not everything buts its a pretty big contributing factor.

The example springing to mind is the recent pictures of CCJ in her lesson that HenryHorn posted up. I couldn't achieve what she is in the pictures, because my position doesnt compare to hers. However, a lot rests on how your horse has been taught. If its been taught 'correct aids' from a 'correct' position, and you suddenly start giving it less correct aids from a less correct position.. you're going to have communication problems and not achieve what your asking because of a lack of understanding.
 
It's an interesting one which I've noticed a couple of times. I don't know anything about dressage so cant really comment

Show jumping - look at Will Funnell & Tim Stockdale for example. Not the world's prettiest but get the results

Eventing - Mary King - prime example of going xc defensively but look how consistant she is.

Isn't Lucinda Green an advocate of sit back and down going xc?
 
Lol! Position does have a huge amount to do with horses way of going, but doesnt necessarily mean you have to be classically perfect, just in the right balance with the horse, which the classical position obviously is the "optimum" position to be in! However, looking at top riders in any disciplines, the positions vary so much, it depends how every individualis built, so what position they have to be in to be effective, soft and in balance so the horse can work correctly.
 
[ QUOTE ]
severnmiles...can you pretty please make you siggy smaller as its dragging the page across out of view!

Thankies!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that better?...........if not........tough
tongue.gif


Only joking, let me know if thats better.
 
Nice question,

The classical seat is a useful means to an end, it's a very good position to be in to learn communication and balance but it isn't essential for either so once you've learned how to feel and control both those things you can depart from the classical seat without compromising either, and arguably enhancing them in some cases.

The dressage rider getting an advanced performance from an appalling position is a nice trick because it creates an apparent anomaly which causes you to re-evaluate what you've been taught and forces the conclusion that rather large deviations can be made fromt the classical seat without compromising either communication or balance. It would be unhelpful to imply from this that position in unimportant and more productive to think about the reasons why it must be possible and what it tells you about how riding works and therefore what aspects of position are important and what doesn't matter very much.

The reason all sorts of positions and flapping that would make my instructor growl like a wild dog doesn't affect balance is that the mechanical effect on the horse is deceptively small provided you stay in the saddle. Arms are too light to have much effect on rider balance and anything you do with your upper body can be balanced by doing something my instructor would describe as the work of satan with your lower leg - and vice versa. So there are lots of high-stabiltiy and rather comfortable rider positions which allow adequate aiding that are a long way from the the classical seat.

What does matter is that you know how to balance. Recently I've noticed the phrase 'core stability' creep into the horse world which is really good news. Its a concept that has been central to dance training for centuries and learning balance is very similar in both disciplines. If you've had ballet lessons you'll be well familiar with the concept of alignment which is the same for the classical seat as it is for dance: you maintain without unecessary effort the vertical line between ear, hip and ankle. Whereas in dance it especially well known and taught that if can control your centre (ie tummy) everything else follows, balance when riding has never been taught in this way. The point here is this: lets suppose you watch two riders one very experienced and one novice with apparently identical "bad" positions and flappy limbs to the point that my instructor would be snorting like an enraged badger. The experienced rider would have core stability and so would be in control of what they were doing, the novice rider wouldn't have core stability and wouldn't be in control. The clue is to look at the centre of the rider!

Its also interesting how the aiding is possible but I think I should shut up now...
 
I think also that the photo's are just a moment in time and with some of the people pictured the camera may have just caught them in a bad moment.

Anyone who competes where they have photographers like Andrew Gilham who takes several shots of each person doing their tests knows that the chances are that some of the piccies will look great and in some you may look like you've never actually sat on a horse before!!

However I do think position is important and can't think of any top class dressage riders who don't sit well. (Someone will probably think of one.)
wink.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top