Is the black gene dominant over the appaloosa one?

SpottyTB

SpottyTB

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I am considering breeding out of my chestnut roan appaloosa mare, her dam was a bay thoroughbred and her sire is a knabstrupper. So even though there is no appaloosa breed there, Gem came out with an appaloosa look rather than knabstrup. If i put her to a homozygous black, would i get a black foal or is there a high chance i'd get a spotty foal?

:) confusing one eh!!


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The gene controlling the spotty coat pattern is so complex it gets very confusing. Very roughly speaking, as your mare had only one parent who carries the spotty gene the highest probability of passing on the spotty coat colour when using a solid coloured sire is only 50%
 
Black and the spotting genes are two separate genes, so you can have a black spotted horse. However the spotting patterns or more correctly the amount of white they produce will have an effect on the black base coat covering some, part or all of it.

But the amount of white is the difficult bit as well as the pattern likely to be inherited!!!
They have had a lot of trouble locating the genes for the appaloosa spotting, I was told that they were 6 months away in 2003!!! Luckily I had the sense not to hold my breath!! Even though they are on the brink of testing they cannot be sure if the genes in the test are the actual genes or marker genes for them!!! I hope that with some testing I might be able to shed some light on that. I doubt very much that they will look any further as it is so complex.

It entirely depends on what genes are in the mix and if your mare has enough white modifiers to crop out so to speak. When you say roan I am assuming that she has the varnish effect where the coat fades each coat change with more white appearing? Where that white is appearing are there any spots appearing as well?

Her Knab father, was he a leopard spot or a white born as the call them (fewspot or snowcap)? A lot of the white modifying effect seems to depend on the amount of potential white a horse uses for its own colour and that it "stores", so the theory goes that foal of a fewspot out of a solid that is itself very white will go on to produce less white than a foal from the same mating that is minimally marked, as it has some white modifiers to spare that it hasn't used, if that makes sense it is in credit!

It could be that she is just a varnish which means she is on the very edge of colour as far as appaloosas go with just the mottled skin and the fading of the coat, in that case a black with minimal amounts of white on him would probably lessen the chances, certainly the old English TB lines are probably neutral for white modifiers, so something along those lines would considerably lessen your chances. But one forum member got two spotted foals from very conservative stallions out of her apparently solid mare!! Black is supposed to let less white through than chestnut but I am a not convinced about how far that goes.

With appaloosa genes you can never say never and if you wanted it you wouldn't get it and if you didn't you would!!!!
 
Had a look at the picture and looking at that I think that she is only a varnish so the likelyhood of colour drops quite a lot if you are out crossing to a solid colour breed, do you know was her father born an all over leopard or was he a born a blanket that faded like she is doing now?.

I doubt the genetic test will help you a lot because it is, as I read it only able to determine homozygousity in appaloosas, and your girl will not be that. The project are unsure if it is the actual genes that they have located or marker genes, all they know is that the genes that they have found are present in all the visually attributed homozygous appaloosas they have tested.

(P.S Sheila Archer, is the researcher on the project the Dr is Rebecca Bellone)
 
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KarynK said:
Had a look at the picture and looking at that I think that she is only a varnish so the likelyhood of colour drops quite a lot if you are out crossing to a solid colour breed, do you know was her father born an all over leopard or was he a born a blanket that faded like she is doing now?.

I doubt the genetic test will help you a lot because it is, as I read it only able to determine homozygousity in appaloosas, and your girl will not be that. The project are unsure if it is the actual genes that they have located or marker genes, all they know is that the genes that they have found are present in all the visually attributed homozygous appaloosas they have tested.

(P.S Sheila Archer, is the researcher on the project the Dr is Rebecca Bellone)
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I think, looking at pictures of her father as a 3year old, he was born all over leopard spot, as in the pictures he's white with the spots but they are all defined and there's no like varnish/roaning/blanket spot affect to him..

I was considering putting her to the oldenburg - santo hit, he's homozygous black, and that would be perfect but he's £550 and with all the others costs on top i'd like to save a bit just in case of emergency.

there is also a more local stallion, he's a 17hh bay, he's just started competing so obviously isnt as proven as santo, but he's a beaut! So i suppose its a risk i'll have to take with the spots, i think the foal will be a beaut anyway!!

Any of you guys breeders? :D would love to ask some questions about costs and general breeding..
 
I think that you might be lucky with that and if you pick stallions with not a lot of white it won't do any harm but usually if you will get colour and how much it's part of the fun, but with you that might be different!!!

My TB mare has proved neutral for white modifiers when I have bred her so I tend to have to pick good colour producers for her. I bred two supposedly homozygous appaloosas together and got a solid (bit of a shock spent ages that night looking for some white other than her bloomin legs!!!) she did exactly what your mare is doing last year, but she was bred for performance so I wasn't at all unhappy with the result!!! So it's really pot luck.
 
The THEORY (not yet proven) behind the spotted colouring is this:

There are 2 sets of genes involved, Lp and Patn, Patn provides the pattern and Lp 'Lights it up' Soo

lplp / Patn Patn = Characteristic with no roaning (stripy feet and sclera but nothing else - pattern with no lights)

Lplp / Patn Patn = Spotted (leopard or blanket - pattern lit up)

LpLp / Patn Patn = Fewspot/snowcap (lights too bright drown the pattern)

Lplp / patn patn = Appaloosa Roan (lights with not pattern)

Further to this is is suspected that there are several options on Patn and the different alleles here are what says 'cover the whole body' (fewspot/leopard) or 'cover part of the body' (blanket/snowcap) and the different combinations of Patn offer the different sizes of blankets.

So your mare would be Lplp / patnpatn as she is app roan (btw appaloosa spotted, british spotted pony spotted, knabstrupper spotted, noriker spotted ect ect ect are all the same genes). So if you breed her to a non-spotted (no Patn to give) you will PROBABLY get a 50% chance of a app roan foal, if you breed to a spotted (with Patn to offer) then you may well end up with a leopard, blanket spot, fewspot or snowcap depending on the genetics lottery.

http://www.appaloosaproject.info/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=15&MMN_position=70:70

A new DNA test will be available soon for Appaloosa or leopard-complex coat pattern. A disorder known as congenital stationary night blindness (CSNB) a condition making it difficult or impossible to see in relatively low light has been directly linked to the leopard complex in Appaloosa horses. DNA test for the LP mutations can also provide clear information as to CSNB.
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Info on the latest on the Lp test

There is some evidence that black supresses white markings so a Black based horse will express smaller ammounts of white than a Red based (chestnut) horse with the same white pattern genes.

There are other controllers on how much a white horse shows as well so it is not that one cannot get a loud patterned black based horse more that if one horse was black and the other was chestnut and they carried exactly the same white patterns, white supressors and/or white boosters then the chestnut would express more white.
 
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Tiny Fluffy Coblet said:
The THEORY (not yet proven) behind the spotted colouring is this:

There are 2 sets of genes involved, Lp and Patn, Patn provides the pattern and Lp 'Lights it up' Soo

lplp / Patn Patn = Characteristic with no roaning (stripy feet and sclera but nothing else - pattern with no lights)

Lplp / Patn Patn = Spotted (leopard or blanket - pattern lit up)

LpLp / Patn Patn = Fewspot/snowcap (lights too bright drown the pattern)

Lplp / patn patn = Appaloosa Roan (lights with not pattern)

Further to this is is suspected that there are several options on Patn and the different alleles here are what says 'cover the whole body' (fewspot/leopard) or 'cover part of the body' (blanket/snowcap) and the different combinations of Patn offer the different sizes of blankets.

So your mare would be Lplp / patnpatn as she is app roan (btw appaloosa spotted, british spotted pony spotted, knabstrupper spotted, noriker spotted ect ect ect are all the same genes). So if you breed her to a non-spotted (no Patn to give) you will PROBABLY get a 50% chance of a app roan foal, if you breed to a spotted (with Patn to offer) then you may well end up with a leopard, blanket spot, fewspot or snowcap depending on the genetics lottery.

http://www.appaloosaproject.info/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=15&MMN_position=70:70



Info on the latest on the Lp test

There is some evidence that black supresses white markings so a Black based horse will express smaller ammounts of white than a Red based (chestnut) horse with the same white pattern genes.

There are other controllers on how much a white horse shows as well so it is not that one cannot get a loud patterned black based horse more that if one horse was black and the other was chestnut and they carried exactly the same white patterns, white supressors and/or white boosters then the chestnut would express more white.
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Oh god, sounds very complicated! I guess i will have to try my luck with her, it may not happen and i might just realise it's cheaper to buy a yearling to make 16.2 then breed her!

Thank you, its all very interesting! :)
 
Sorry to hijack, but I'm curious about the use of the term "Appaloosa" to describe colouring rather than breeding. Is that standard here? My understanding is Knabstruppers (which barely exist in North America) are in no way related to Appaloosas but perhaps I've got that wrong . . ? And what of "breeding stock" Appaloosas that are - at least obviously - solid coloured?

Or is this like the "Paint/pinto" thing, where the proper name for a specific breed has become a generally used name for horse that look similar?
 
TarrSteps said:
Sorry to hijack, but I'm curious about the use of the term "Appaloosa" to describe colouring rather than breeding. Is that standard here? My understanding is Knabstruppers (which barely exist in North America) are in no way related to Appaloosas but perhaps I've got that wrong . . ? And what of "breeding stock" Appaloosas that are - at least obviously - solid coloured?

Or is this like the "Paint/pinto" thing, where the proper name for a specific breed has become a generally used name for horse that look similar?
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Ahh I can't answer that but I can babble, gems dad is Danish knabstrupper - which I read somewhere is basically Danish warmblood with a fancy colouring! I think knabstrupper is a colour and can be bred into any breed,but saying that I've never heard of a TB knabstrupper lol - ever though I suppose thats what gem is.. ( as mum is tb and dad knabstrupper)

Looking up Appaloosa it is a breed (very araby/quarter horse like) but with a spotty affect whether that's just mottled skin on nose and around eyes and White stripped hooves or full on spots, ie: blanket spot, few spot and so on...

Appaloosa's can't be a leopard spot they have to be one of the above.. (I think!!!)

The only mention on gems passport of an Appaloosa is the society the passport Is with.. Colour is: chestnut roan and breed is: riding horse (or though I prefer the term tb X or tb x knabstrupper - sounds more special/athletic)

Like I said I can woffle but there may be some meaning to my nonsense.. Sure someone smarter will correct me!!
 
Knabstruppers and Appaloosas are def two independent breeds.

Knabstruppers have a breed standard that they have to adhere to and certain requirements that their pedigree has to meet in order to have a Knabstrupper passport. There are mare and stallion gradings held for Knabstruppers, which breeding stock have to pass before their offspring can gain head studbook status (just like a traditional warmblood studbook). Although they are often spotted, solid coloured Knabstruppers are eligible for head stud book if they fulfill the pedigree requirements.

Afraid I know very little about the Appaloosa breed so can't help there.
 
Tarr Steps – over here everyone tends to refer to a spotted horse as an appaloosa regardless of ancestry, not really surprising when the vast majority have not got their heads round the fact that a buckskin is not a dun but a bay palomino!!! We don’t even differentiate paint patterns generally they are called either piebald (black and white) or skewbald (any other colour and white) And there’s more!!!!
Basically you have your Knabstruppers as above

The British Appaloosa Society who have their own registration rules to form a breed, some of their horses are from or have American bloodlines and there is the

ApHC UK an ApHC affiliate that hold an American register for UK based horses registered with the USA and a UK register, some of those are eligible for USA registration and some not.

There was a spotted horse and pony society, which are no more an their registration was based upon colour alone I believe.

You are right though that solid appaloosas have a vital role to play in maintaining the spots!! But I now know that some solid appaloosas are in fact not total solids but in a dormant type state. Mottled skin can appear anywhere inside (some apps have spotted teeth) or outside the horse, so registration rules dictate visible mottling, be it skin or hooves, but in reality a solid appearing horse might well be an appaloosa capable of either cropping out with the right solid mate or helping to rejuvenate the leopard pattern if bred to a white appaloosas, as indeed the solid appaloosas do as well, they bring back the spots to white horses and I sometimes wonder if the ApHC realise this when they charge more for registering "solids".

Re the relationship between spotted breeds, I believe in time with some mitochondrial DNA research that you will find the common ancestors of all modern spotted horses, probably back to China and those pictured in the cave paintings. We know that the horses that arrived in America with Cortez were not PRE’s but a common ancestor, the English Hackney’s forebears “Hacas” along with some of the “common horse of Spain”, these were probably the source of North American spots, since Haca’s did not come in spotted coats. The common horses could well have got their spots from Northern Europe or via North Africa in the Moorish occupation of Spain???

Now re the LP theory it is actually one of many theories and is flawed once you start to look very closely.

Example 1 a true fewspot, born white with a few spots from two appaloosas, under the Lp model it would be LpLp Patn Patn bred to a blanket leopard Lplp Patn Patn producing a solid lplp patn patn. This was actually brought to the attention of the project in 2003, but it was not considered and the rather annoyed owner was told that the horse must be grey, which it was terribly obviously not in any way, when that was pointed out she was told that the horse was “some other type of leopard”, whatever that means. (It is also a bit disconcerting when someone can make a basic error in taking a look at a fewspot and declaring that it could be the opposite base colour to that which it is proven to be by the over 100 progeny it had produced.)

Example 2 A solid mare owned by someone on this forum, no stripy hooves, no sclera so under the model lp lp patn patn bred to a solid brown TB stallion from a very conservatively marked family who produced a varnish appaloosa who cropped out aged 1 or 2, that was a bay/brown, she then did it again with a different stallion producing a chestnut. So two different lplp patn patn matings produced an Lp lp patn patn.

Example 3 Mine! bred from two LpLp Patn Patn’s under the model who turned out Lplp patn patn.

The problem was that the initial research was incomplete when the major part of the theory was formed and not all offspring of the key stallion who was chosen were reported upon. To really understand how the complex genes that make up the spotted coat patterns work, you need to look at a lot of progeny from total out crossing to breeds with not a lot of white. Another problem is trying to visually attribute homozygosity, it doesn’t work especially with solid appaloosas and snowcaps. There is another theory put forward about visually homozygous snowcaps being poor colour producers, to explain the away they are called false snowcaps!!!

The chestnut thing really doesn’t hold when you look at some of these out cross matings. One stallion in North America with extensive use and many crossings on to TB’s will produce a very similar amount of white be the foal bay or chestnut (he himself has proven to be ee AA). At one point is was suggested that chestnut not be bred from or all colour would be lost???

It is so very difficult even bordering on the impossible to truly understand what is going on if you are looking at the resulting foal of two parents contributing probably 3-4 genes each for the patterns and basic mottled skin, which is essential to the patterns, plus the white modifiers. That becomes more and more difficult if you do not at least consider those individuals that are not meeting your theory.

I prefer another model originally proposed by Jeanette Gower and progressed by Lynn Harrison, it makes more sense with what I am seeing.

If you look at solid out crossing to Fewspot and extended snowcap stallions you begin to see that the patterns are different and not the amount of white. One prolific stallion has produced an overwhelming proportion of these type of matings as near leopards that also have the varnish and turn leopard over time. His son however produced mainly snowcaps, his mother was one and his grandmother on his fathers side. There are lines in America that only produce leopards especially in the old foundation lines, a huge proportion of the horses in Ulrich’s herd were just leopards, near leopards, spotted blankets and of course with leopards solids are an inevitable by product. It could well be that some of these horses were homozygous for the leopard pattern itself, there were very few snowcaps or fewspots. Equally there are some stallions that only produce snowcap patterns and from these crossed onto solids you get your false snowcaps.

It is a very complicated inheritance and to be able to say 50:50 chance when you are working with all those genes is far too simplistic a model.
 
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KarynK - I am so glad you came on board with this one. You always have the answers, just wish I had the intellect to understand them, but I shall continue to try .....
 
Thank-you, KarynK. :) I understood about a quarter of that ;) but much appreciated, none the less.

The whole "Paint/pinto" thing used to drive me mad, as it really isn't just semantics, but there really aren't any common spotted horses that aren't Appaloosas in North America so this particular confusion simply doesn't come up. (It's quite restful to not have to make sense of eternal forum conversations about pinto coat patterns, too, especially since they seem to keep coming up with new ones!)

Appaloosas are also rarely used for outcrossing, although there are a few people breeding warmblood crosses (none of which would be accepted in many of the major studbooks since they won't accept anything with "stock" breeding. . . even though I know there are horses with QH breeding that looked the part and have been approved in as "unknown") so there must be a fair number around that look solid but have Appaloosa genes rattling around in there. There are definitely solid horses with Appaloosa characteristics and that "look" to their skin and hooves.
 
Hi JoBird the trouble is every time I think I have my head round it I see something els and have to go back to giving myself a headache!!!!

But basically if you think of the patterns as being separately inherited, The basic is the mottled skin then you have the patterns

Anything with coloured spots = Leopard pattern
Anything with a dribble of white or a white blanket as snowcap
and anything that starts solid and varnishes out as varnish alone, then it begins to make much more sense.

Then you have to think that there are composites, so a spotted blanket with varnish will eventually look like a leopard.

Also you can have a snowcap with leopard.

But in order to get the extensive whites you are seeing all three together plus of course the Lp which I prefer to call Ap - the breed gene if you like that gives the mottled skin and or sclera, plus probably sabino type markings as well. Trouble is with extensive whites you don't see that unless they are wet!!!!

TarrSteps Personally I hold with the theory that Lynn put forward re how appaloosas got to the Pacific Northwest, she thinks that they arrived in the "Dormant state". The Nez Perce were in effect the last on the list for horses and I cannot see having been traded up from Mexico that all the tribes in between would let go a loudly spotted leopard!! So they probably had one or two crop outs and started breeding with the colour as well, so the rest is History and they were very enlightened horse breeders. This would work well with the percentage of "colour" in the herd observed by Lewis and Clark in their diaries, that most were solid, with others more like spotted blankets, the sort of patterns you would get with low colour producing patterns and a lack of sabino type markings. It appears that it was the breed that they favoured and the colour was a bonus for ceremonial and prestige matters.

Unfortunately it all fell apart when us lot got there and started settling on their lands!!! When the appaloosa was saved in the 19th century a they were largely a mixture of ranch stock and the result of breeding heavier types probably bred by the Nez Perce for their new lives as farmers on reservations. With that mix into Ranch stock came the crossing with QH and Paint lines as well. The line of Bright Eyes Brother for instance has splashed white, through his dam Plaudette, and of course her daughter and his half sister Bright Eyes was registered a QH and others of Plaudette's progeny were registered paints!!

This is one of his descendants, sorry small image but you can see the face and leg markings that are typical of some in this line.
images


Yes so all the stock breeds have each others patterns and with the relaxing of the QH reg rules on white you get something like this registered QH
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It's a real shame that the racing apps have a lot of TB crossing going on but they never record the damn colours, though I have studied a family from the scanty details I got on the net!
 
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Ok.. So a simple (ish) question - using the photo of my girl, what colour and pattern is she? She has mottled skin around her nose and the 'human eye' and all her skin is spotty, one udder/teet is pink and the other is black lol!!

Always being asked what colour she is and I never have a answeR!!
 
Very interesting KarynK about the holes in the Lp theory :) that is why I stressed that it was a theory so much,

Example 1 a true fewspot, born white with a few spots from two appaloosas, under the Lp model it would be LpLp Patn Patn bred to a blanket leopard Lplp Patn Patn producing a solid lplp patn patn.
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Surely under the Lp model a fewspot is LpLp So in this case the foal (fewspot if I understood) has picked up one Lp from each spotted parent and the maximum coverage Patn genes from somewhere (that inheritance is fuzzyer).

I personally hate the use of the term 'appaloosa' for the spotted colouring and tend to refer to it as spotted, to me it is like refering to black as 'friesian' and all black horses regardless of breed as 'friesian coloured'.

Appaloosa's are horses that are registered appaloosa's generally spotted in colour and (I believe) carry QH or TB blood only. Knabstuppers are a warmblood breed who are also usualy spotted. Norikers are a cob like breed who can be spotted. Miniatures are a tiny breed who can be spotted. They all carry the same spotting genes just as a bay arab, a bay TB and a bay clydesdale all carry the same agouti genes.
 
Tiny Fluffy Coblet said:
Surely under the Lp model a fewspot is LpLp So in this case the foal (fewspot if I understood) has picked up one Lp from each spotted parent and the maximum coverage Patn genes from somewhere (that inheritance is fuzzyer). ..

Appaloosa's are horses that are registered appaloosa's generally spotted in colour and (I believe) carry QH or TB blood only.
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Sorry didn’t make that as clear as should have!! I knew what I meant !!! The parents of the mating were LpLp Patn Patn (fewspot parent) and the other parents Lplp Patn patn (both spotted blankets one with varnish one with a very slow varnish which I don’t think is the same) the foals were both solid lplp patn patn and have never changed, though both inherited white sabino markings from the fewspot. Interestingly when the same fewspot was bred to a solid the result was a very loud leopard!

I agree that the use of Appaloosa has become generalised and I think the name should be used for those of that heritage.

American Appaloosas vary a lot in type according to their use, but like a lot of American breeds they allow out crossing this has pros and cons and a lot have TB and QH blood, but the main register ApHC Appaloosas can all claim heritage from the original breed bred by the Nez Perce tribe on the Pacific Northwest in the Rocky Mountains. They were very advanced horse breeders enough so that the first explorers commented highly on the standard of the horses they bred, comparing them with fine English horses of the time. The Nez Perce practiced gelding of horses they felt not up to the grade and also used the open technique of gelding used in modern veterinary practices today, this too is documented and probably where we got the idea!

In the USA the Appaloosa Horse Club ApHC allows out crossing to purebred Arabs, Thoroughbreds and Quarter Horses. But also like a lot of the breeds more emphasis is now being placed upon foundation lines so many Appaloosas qualify for “Foundation” status, so many individuals must have so many ApHC registered ancestors in the last 5 generations, the number rises each year so the animals get more foundation blood as the scheme progresses. Unfortunately for me this means some of mine dip out as they have Canadian blood and not all their relatives are registered with the ApHC further back though they are all appaloosas and in some cases their parents are registered!!!!!.

There has been a bit of a rift between the two Clubs who have gone separate ways and the Canadians do not allow out crossing to Arabs.

There are other registries in the USA, one who’s horses claim more purity, is the Foundation Appaloosa Horse Registry FAHR. There is also the Colorado Rangerbreds, who are a stockhorse register with Appaloosas descending from certain sires. We have one in the UK.


Spotty TB I would call your lady a Varnish, I don't call it roan as there is already a roan colouring colour that does not fade so why confuse people more!
 
SpottyTB said:
Oo is that one of yours?? He/she is beautiful!!

So I'd get something similar even if it was a homozygous stallion?
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Homozygous black just means the horse will never sire red. If your chestnut roan mare doesn't carry black then even if you breed her to a homozygous black you will never get a black foal, but just bay or bay with spotted pattern/characteristics.
The sire of this spotty foal could well be homozygous black, he has not yet sired a chestnut.
 
Sorry Spotty TB just reread this and lost the chestnut bit, but looking at that picture of your mare and what look like black points under her boots and on her ears she is a bay or brown not a chestnut.
 
KarynK said:
Sorry Spotty TB just reread this and lost the chestnut bit, but looking at that picture of your mare and what look like black points under her boots and on her ears she is a bay or brown not a chestnut.
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Thank you:) - I 'be always thought the passport colour was wrong, she has got black points so yes would be bay underneath?
She used to be really really light in colour (loads of White all over-almost looked pink in colour) and then gradually got darker like she is in that photo.

As a foal she was very dark (compared with what she is) with hardly any snowflake/spottiness, she keeps changing, think she will change some more too! So she is a bay varnish Appaloosa or bay roan Appaloosa??

Would there be much point in getting the passport changed ?

:)
 
You can change the passport colour, but there is probably some cost involved, to be honest with some spotted horses the description section is virtually useless anyway because they change so much!! Mine look nothing like their passport photos as foals!
 
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