Is the tide turning?

We sing from the same song sheet I think Weezy
wink.gif


Alas the trend today (as with everything it seems) is that there is no time to wait for it to come together. It has to happen immediatly and the fastest way to get that is to drag them down onto the bit (as opposed to INTO an outline.. is how i like to think of it). Theres no wonder classically trained horses tend to be fitter and active for many more years than those trained through more "modern" methods.
 
General post not directed at you T.

Whilst this was a 'dressage' type thread, or at least it's gone that way, don't you find that it's the same in all disciplines, take the show jumper that can only run to it's fences and can't shorten in related distances for example. (no offence to you SJs at all but you've all seen them!)

It's the foundation in all areas I think that is sadly missing with so many riders, they just want results and they want them now, maybe it's my age but what has happend to good old patience and listening to your horse?
 
I totally agree with you TOG (being an SJer to boot
tongue.gif
) - I dont allow a horse to run to a jump, I want my horses to have gears within EACH gait - I want a horse that responds INSTANTLY to leg aids and to seat aids, I want a horse that yields, is soft and round, engaged and light - I want a horse that will jump in 3, 4 or 5 strides, whichever I dictate - I always say that I am no dressage person, I am not, I do not compete in that discipline, but I want my horses schooled well - coming from behind and engaged - no, I dont pay as mch attention to the "overall" picture as a dressage competitor would, but thats not to say I dont aim to achieve the same results

Without foundations the house falls down
laugh.gif
 
Agree completly. I dont know a whole lot about SJing to be honest, but I think its a trend running throughout the horse world - everything is rushed.

Sadly also, there seem to be (in my opinion!) less and less good trainers out there who do teach more traditional methods.. I think they're getting so disillusioned by the latest modern trends that they're tending to retire to their own worlds and just doing their own horses.
 
I totally agree! I taught a lot in Spain, I even have my AI (long story) but I wont teach anymore - why? because a lot of what I believe in isnt "mainstream", is contradicted by a lot of "valued" and "respected" instructors and I refuse to do a quick fix - hey ho!
 
My instructor also teaches the way you describe and I have had to relearn everything however the results speak for themselves. I believe the tide is turning albeit slowly.
 
[ QUOTE ]
My instructor also teaches the way you describe and I have had to relearn everything however the results speak for themselves. I believe the tide is turning albeit slowly.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's great to hear!
smile.gif


The sad thing I think is, as riders, most of us are open to whatever our instructor's tell us. It seems that it is a large proportion of instructors who's minds are closed.

For some reason many seem to feel the need to appear "all knowing" and infallible. They don't have lessons themselves, don't go to conferences etc.

I think if anyone asked my advice about finding an instructor now, I would say, ask them what conferences/clinics/demos they've been to, and who they personally have lessons with.

I'd ask this not to test the quality of the people they see/be taught by etc, but just to test that they are still open and willing to learn.

I'd much rather have an instructor who appears to have a ponder about an issue from time to time, and tries things WITH me rather one who appears to always be so sure they know without thinking!

Oh and also I think that Weezy's line "make the rear do the work and the rest WILL come!" should be tatoo'd on every instructor's forehead!!!
grin.gif
grin.gif


Ok that may be harsh, but I may consider having it written in big letters along the side of my lorry!!!
grin.gif
 
Both my trainers get me to work both my horses long and low, not LDR but near enough - all this is done whilst keeping the hindleg active and results in the horse stretching and work through from the hindleg, across the back and down into a soft low contact. opening and closing your fingers to allow a giving contact on the reins is a totally different concept to seeing people going around swinging off their horses heads and riding on a long rein holding thier hands by the waists which is SO often seen in people when trying to get their horses 'round'.

I agree in that all movement starts from behind and if there is no 'engine' behind then there is going to be nothing in front.

I think there is so much pressure in the 'young horse' classes these days that everyone is out looking for a 'quick fix' to get their youngster up to scratch in time for the qualifiers. I personally dont agree with rushing youngsters, it will all come with time and if the youngster has the talent in the first place then why rush it through the basic stages.
 
[ QUOTE ]
i went to Danes, it was FAB
grin.gif
grin.gif
Got another one in two weeks time. I never realised Andrew and Dane were based together until we turned up and saw Dane there!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh good glad you had a good time!
Andrews not been at Danes long, Kirsty Meopham used to be based with them too! x
 
[ QUOTE ]
I totally agree! I taught a lot in Spain, I even have my AI (long story) but I wont teach anymore - why? because a lot of what I believe in isnt "mainstream", is contradicted by a lot of "valued" and "respected" instructors and I refuse to do a quick fix - hey ho!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Weezy I just read this! That's the crux of my rant I suppose
smile.gif
Sue often feels very like you, but she keeps plugging away as she enjoys teaching grass roots riders, and I suppose she sort of tries to get her ideas across one rider at a time.

I think it really is time that more people who think like you and Sue start shouting louder and MAKE things mainstream.

For a start a new ACCEPTED timescale for competing a horse could be broadcast to the general riding public. Ie one that is not governed by age, but by training level!

The amount of guilt I've carried because I keep insisting my 17.1 heavyweight at 6 is not yet ready for even prelim dressage tests (we have done 2, but only for him to experience an arena) is unreal! I'm made to feel like I'm wasting him, being a coward etc. I know it's rubbish, but the majority around me don't seem to!
 
I have read the whole of this thread and to be completely honest I am lost - who are these awful trainers....? I have always been taught to ride from behind into a contact (the horse takes the contact not the rider).
 
i am an insturctor and when teaching on a riding school with novices you are more inclined to teach the person more than the horse. however as they move up the stages and have thier own balance it switches round. i keep my mare on the riding schhol that i used to teach on as it is a livery aswell and run by a showjumper. the owners now teaches a lot of the livery kids jumpoing but is always going on at them for their flatwork and to be fair to them they can all go out and do prelim dressage well. thyey are all quiet riders and we put the hporse into the outline using leg to hand. we let them take the contact and we do not force them into it. it used to take me a half hour lesson just for my mare to take the contact and keepo it there i the walk. i also have Pippa Funnels DVD from when she was doing demonstrations on youngsters and one thing she said was that they have to support themselves and we have to balance ourse;lves. the horse was not made to carry itself plus an un balanced person on top.
 
I agree tbh. Inside leg - outside hand just isn't difficult and it makes perfect sense. With no outside rein or too little you will not be working through.
I know a few people who seem completely muddled with a more 'classical' way of riding and whose horses are generally above the bit, on the wrong bend and in a fixed pace with no gears and no concept of a half halt.

It really shouldn't be this complicated. Two things I have come to realise:
1. Pull to stop push to go - however clever your trainer is, if people cannot get on your horse and use basic aids - it's not well trained.
2. Dressage is really hard work, if you end your lesson cool calm & collected claiming that "it's the horse that should be doing the work" (as I increasingly see) then you aren't riding properly and you will make no progress....
 
what you are saying is that the horse has to be in self carriage, which is an important aspect of dressage - yet a lot of horses (especially riding school ones) arent due to whatever reason (lack of schooling/downhill built etc). To get self carriage the horse has to be working from behind and into a consistent contact which includes the rider having a nice relaxed elbow and upper arm..............
 
[ QUOTE ]

2. Dressage is really hard work, if you end your lesson cool calm & collected claiming that "it's the horse that should be doing the work" (as I increasingly see) then you aren't riding properly and you will make no progress....

[/ QUOTE ]

If by work you mean - re Emerald2006's point, work to balance yourself - which until you're fit and strong in upperbody is tiring, then I agree.

If by work you mean working with your leg/seat to push a horse to keep going then I strongly disagree.
 
Firstly, Im using quick reply - this isnt aimed at Cosmosam
wink.gif


On the point of teachers - there is a huge variation in the trainers in this country. While some, many probably, teach people to ride from back to front, the variation for me comes down to whether or not they teach you to focus on the head and neck. For some the *goal* is to have the horse "on the bit" - or whatever you wish to call it. For others self carriage will be the result of correct riding only and therefore the *goal* becomes that correct riding.

Some trainers - and their students - are so focused on what the horse's head and neck are doing that everything else pales into insignificance. Learning to ride a horse in correct self carriage is very difficult but people dont appreciate this. The result is for people fixing their horses head, using gadgets to hold it in place etc and the result of this is the neck curls in and the rider is happy. Everyone wants a quick fix. People also seem to feel pressure into complying with this. They dont always know why they want their horse "on the bit" - but everyone else does it and therefore they should to.

For me it all comes down to what you want to achieve. Are we aiming for this:-

http://www.freunde-hofreitschule.at/images/common/intro.jpg

Or this:-

http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles2/diagrams/forehand200.jpg

Someone mentioned that the term "classical" has become confused slightly and have seen people claiming to ride classically with their horse above the bit. To be honest, yes, you probably have. I know of several good classical trainers who would much rather see a horse above the bit than with their outline broken at the neck. My horse will often warm up above the bit because I dont concern myself with what his head is doing.

I certainly dont jump on and immediatly expect him to be working correctly so what should you do at this point? Allow the horse to hold his head where he feels comfortable while you warm up and get him moving from behind? Or do you fiddle with your hands and get them "onto the bit" WHILE you warm up even though the chances are that he isn't initially working correctly?

When I have the back end working correctly and everything else in place, only then will he offer self carriage and yes, his outline is often higher than my fellow liveries because for me, his poll needs to be the highest point with his head on the vertical.

I find it interesting that when the FEI set the standards for dressage they would penalise for the outline being broken in the neck and the horse being ridden overly deep. Now they award marks for it... the rules are being bent around new training methods and not the other way round.

Quote:

2. Dressage is really hard work, if you end your lesson cool calm & collected claiming that "it's the horse that should be doing the work" (as I increasingly see) then you aren't riding properly and you will make no progress....

Yes, it is hard work although I consider it to be more a matter of self discipline than hard work but I dont get off at the end of every session looking like ive done three rounds with mike tyson - unlike some people who spend an hour fighting with their horses head. My aids are light and my horse responds to subtle changes in weight so once Im "riding fit", I dont particularly find it physically exhausting on a day to day basis. Yes, a certain level of fitness is required but I dont see why you need to be physically exhausted to claim to be making progress.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that when the FEI set the standards for dressage they would penalise for the outline being broken in the neck and the horse being ridden overly deep. Now they award marks for it... the rules are being bent around new training methods and not the other way round.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just to pick up on this and to offer you some crumbs of comfort - I have had to work incredibly hard with my new horse to prevent her going deep and breaking in the neck (was used for showing before I bought her) - I have finally made headway with this but it certainly was heavily criticised on my test sheets.

Perhaps all is not lost
smile.gif
 
1. It was me who claims to see people riding above the bit. That's because they ARE riding their horse above the bit. Not warming up which we all do with horse in a loose free outline. But riding a horse which is supporting it's head with it's Brach muscles & is not working along it's topline at all.
2. Where do you people meet these trainers, who are focussed completely on head & neck, not at most of the competitions I go, certainly I haven't met a trainer for years who wasn't trying vainly to get Sienna & I to work correctly from behind? Allthough the trainers I use would not allow me to let Sienna work off the contact or not on the bit when our efforts are in getting a horse (completely the wrong shape for dressage) to work uphill.
3. Where do you come across horses who cannot go on the bit, and riders who work really hard fiddling to get them on the bit. None at my yard, or at any of my 'conventional' friends. The only ones I know are in the yard of a local 'classical' trainer who allowed her horses to go two years off the bit & then when they had entirely incorrect musculature tried to get them to drop their noses and go 'on the bit'..
 
[ QUOTE ]

2. Where do you people meet these trainers, who are focussed completely on head & neck,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm yet to meet a trainer who ADMITS to this, but I have witnessed the people they teach ride like this.
 
Current judge training in the UK is focussed very heavily on horses not being behind the vertical. There is a real emphasis on not rewarding horses which are overbent... All to the good .....
laugh.gif
 
One final point: most horses that go above the bit resist the bit action actively. But a lot of the "Look-Mama-No-Hands!" Classicist actually ride their horses above the bit with such little effort to make contact, that the horses have nothing to resist in the first place. These horses can be everything from totally inverted to looking fairly good but in a natural outline. The latter is, of course, better, but the truth is, the horse is still above the bit. For the horse to be on the bit, there needs to be contact, and the horse must yield the muscles at the poll and accept the contact. The bit must lay across the tongue (and possibly the bars) and not be against the molar teeth (because the horse's nose is out due to tense poll muscles).
 
Of course there needs to be a contact and Im not in anyway disputing this.

What Im saying is that when I hop on my boy on a daily basis, I dont expect him to be in self carriage from the first step. It takes him (and me!) a while to get moving, get him stepping under himself and get him working forwards and it is only at this point that I then expect him to start rounding correctly, offering his back and proceeding to move into self carriage. Thankfully these days it doesnt take us too long to reach that point.

When Im warming up, I dont ride with no contact (with exception for an initial walk round), but nor do I panic if he's above the bit or feel the temptation to fiddle with my hands to put him "on the bit". Im not an advocate of having reins like washing lines on the basis that this means im not interfering and therefore I must be being nice. IMO this is equally damaging as many other methods because the chances are high that the horse is speeding round getting deeper and deeper onto its forehand. My horse isnt inverted when I warm up as I think he's at a point in his training where we're beyond that and I think *crosses fingers* my basic position is good enough that he doesnt find the need to brace against me, but he will be slightly above the bit and I would much rather this than him being hyperflexed.

If, after we have warmed up, he's resisting, then the problem is with me - not with him - and for me, that problem wont be solved by twiddling about with his mouth.

Dont get me wrong, I believe classical riding is open to the same misinterpretation as any other method (and maybe this is where the washing line reins because its "kind" idea comes from). As such, just like any other method people should be seeking lessons along the way
 
I would just add to this that most top riders dislike the phrase "on the bit" and prefer to subsititue "on the aids".

There's clearly a reason they choose to change the wording, as the very term places undue emphasis on the "bit" in terms of a correct shape.
 
I've always ridden with the inside leg/outside rein brigade, but am having proper dressage lessons for the first time in years and have been told to ride pretty equal with both legs and hands for straightness, to concentrate more on the rythym and keeping the horse forward, and that I was using too much inside rein allowing the horse to use me as her 'fifth leg'. It all seemed so alien, but my mare as responded hugely.
 
It's so reassuring to hear things like this
smile.gif


As you say, our horses soon tell us what they prefer!

I've seen and felt the improvement in my share horse and watched George bloom myself, and I've also seen my friend's who changed instructors and went to Sue and the improvment in them and their horses!

One mare in particular even became happier to handle and in her stable etc. Sue said because she's now happy in her work, she's happier in herself.

Speaks volumes IMO
smile.gif


Good luck with your training
smile.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top