Is there a future for this horse.... ? (Long sorry!)

Blythe Spirit

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Is there a future for my horse? I own a nice little 15hh coloured mare (Of unknown breeding) I was bringing her on and she was going great guns until she had some injury in the field and since November has not been right. As you may recall from my previous posts my vet swears she is sound and that her performance is now poor simply because I am not riding her well enough. I have how had three instructors look at her and each one thinks there is an underlying problem (and says I am riding at least well enough not to be causing the issues) – possibly one that was there all along but that was brought out by the traumatic injury (which I didn’t see – but a fall which basically broke every strap on her rug). And now my once happy all rounder is often upset when asked to work correctly. – I am going to collect some video evidence to add to my armoury and get a second vets opinion– eg asymmetric action and toe dragging when walking down hill, not tracking up in trot, unwillingness to lengthen, hind legs filling in the morning, stifle catching slightly when moving in stable, inability to urinate standing on tip toes (As most mares do) she either tries and her legs tremble or stands with one foot flat, 4 time canter, and shakey legs when standing with hind legs extended esp. after a long road hack etc.
But most of the professionals I have had give their (non vet) opinion seem to think there is an issue which will not be easy to resolve and probably a weakness which will prevent her from doing the dressage and jumping I had hoped to do.
As I have previously had a horse who turned out to have kissing spines and OCD who I decided to retire from ridden work but could not afford to keep I have already done a lot of thinking about what to do with a young but unsuitable horse. In the first case I think I made the wrong decision and loaned and then sold her on as a companion/in hand show horse – although she is now in a good home I know she has been in some terrible ones in between and with hindsight I would have had her PTS.
Now this is a slightly different case – my current horse can certainly be ridden just not very much, very hard or very ‘well’ ie she finds real work on the bit and forward very hard now. BUT she has some nice qualities. She is well schooled and thus light to the leg and the hand. Ie a very ‘easy’ ride. Her paces are super comfy. She is never strong or joggy. She is a peach to hack with another horse being 101% in traffic and other situations. She is total love to handle being slightly timid but she never pulls away, drags, barges or even walks out of the stable when the door is open until you tell her too. You can box her up and take her places by yourself without the slightest fuss hassle. Etc She never ever bites or kicks even if she hates what you are doing to her.
However she can be aggressive with other horses – though some she likes. I have never seen her actually hurt anything but she is just mean – chasing away with teeth and heals. She is not easy to hack alone. Not impossible either – I usually hack alone but I wouldn’t want to if I was a novice rider as she often has a plant and would spin if not pretty firmly directed not to. She would no longer do much dressage – forward and round has become a struggle for her. Although she was working at Novice level getting 70 + % in every prelim I took her to (about 5) She also has lateral work (But again its not much use to her if not forward and round – but means she does gates etc I guess). She could jump coloureds and small XC but I have not tried since the injury as IMO if the canter is not comfy for her whats the point in jumping.

IF It turns out this horse is not going to get better and is not strong enough to do what I want to do. Do you think she has any chance of a decent future with some kind polite rider who wants a comfy gentle small horse to hack out with friends a few times a week and not much more?
OR do you think letting her go will set her up for mistreatment down the road and I would be better to PTS as I should have done with my other horse.
I have no financial means to keep her as a pet, she is 8 and I am at livery where I can afford a horse for me and my husband but no pets (They don’t really have facilities for pet horses either there not being enough turn out for a horse with nothing to do but stand in a small field all day) Also I work 9-5 so owning a happy hacker is not practical in the winter – any way, although I am a happy hacker my real passion is bringing them on for dressage and tinkering with low level jumping. So if she can’t do that she is not the horse I really want. I know that will sound harsh to some but that’s how I see it. They are very expensive to keep forever when they are young but unsuited to what you want to do.
 

L&M

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A very hard one to answer without a proper diagnosis. If you don't know what is wrong, how do you know if her condition will worsen?

She sounds like she has some good points and it is feasible that you could find her a home, but don't think it would be fair to loan/sell her on until you know definitively what is wrong with her.

If it was my horse I would be getting an opinion from another vet, and make sure they see her ridden, as this is where her issues are more apparent.
 

pinklilly

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If she was mine I'd be wanting to get to the bottom of whats wrong with her, I'd be sending her for a full lameness work up, if the usual vet isn't helpful I'd get another.

Have you had a physio to her? Or tried time off?
 

kal40

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If she was mine I'd be wanting to get to the bottom of whats wrong with her, I'd be sending her for a full lameness work up, if the usual vet isn't helpful I'd get another.

Have you had a physio to her? Or tried time off?

This goes for me too. I would like to find out what it was before I made a final decision. I would always wonder if there had been anything I could do.
 

Blythe Spirit

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Oh I will certainly do that previously to selling or loaning her - I am just in the process of videoing things vet is unlikely to see in person (eg hill work) and then deciding who my second opinion will be with. I hope I will know more after that. To be fair I hope I can get her right as I like the mare and she was quite promising for what I wanted. But it's looking increasingly unlikely and those memories of her being happy and forward and light etc seem more and more distant.
 

CobsGalore

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I don't think you can make a decision until you actually know what's wrong with her surely?

Have she been seen by a physio?

I'm surprised you are riding her if you think she is in pain/something is out?
 

Blythe Spirit

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She has had treatment and I am now supposed to be in the re-hab stage - vet advises to ride her - and no one - three professional riders/instructors who have all seen her suggest otherwise. I have a very specific rehab programme I am following inc schooling exercises, lounging exercises and hill work. No decent physio will see without referral from a vet. I have been following this programme for 3 weeks now and I am thinking its not as effective as I hoped so a second opinion will be sort and hopefully a more definitive diagnosis.

Of course I can't make a decision until I have followed up all these things you are quite right but my point was IF the diagnosis is that she is permanently weakened ie unsuitable for competitive dressage or jumping but not a total write off would there in principle be a home for a horse like this - ie does she have a chance of finding a happy useful life with someone or not. I am not parting with her tomorrow or until I have a fuller picture of the problem she is facing
 

L&M

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So if she has had 'treatment' and now in re-hab, what diagnosis has this been based on?

Sorry if I sound a little confused or have missed something......
 

Blythe Spirit

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Sorry I didn't want to repeat a lot of previous posts but in short - end of October last year she fell in the field which I did not see and this may (or may not) be the cause of all this. Vet Diagnosed a sprained fetlock and medicated the joint - she had two weeks off and returned to work. However after a week or so her performance deteriorated gradually and her stifles started to lock up (they always have a little bit but it suddenly got more serious) in December i got the vet to take another look. he said she had very painful hamstrings (Though did not know why) she was taken to the vets practice and had three weeks of treatment - painkillers, inferential treatment, massage etc and then controlled exercise in hand, in lines and on the treadmill. I gave her another two weeks of in hand rehab plus some turn out as directed when she returned home so all in all 5/6 weeks off ridden work. I was told to resume riding and I did so. At first - well first two sessions or so she seemed OK, pretty much as she was (as much as one can tell in a 10 min ride). Then performance started to deteriorate again so I got the vet again who watched me ride and concluded that she was fine and just being a cow and that i just was not riding effectively (He said even a dressage horse will go like a donkey when badly ridden) and suggested i get some lessons and continue working her - quite hard he said to build up strength in quarters. he also advised me to do hill work and to find a school with a better surface. So I have been boxing out 3 nights a week to school on a good surface and to do hill work at weekends. And I got some lessons - two out of three instructors think there is an unsoundness issue about which I should get a second opinion and the third thinks there is an unsoundess issue but its not worth wasting money on more vets and i should just try riding through it. She rode her for me and she did manage to get her moving forward better than I can all be it with a few bucking fits chucked in (which she does not generally do with me). So the vets 'diagnosis' is that horse suffered strained hamstrings after fall which was made worse by riding and now is sounds all be it being ridden badly.
 

el_Snowflakes

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What a shame. I would get a second opinion from another vet without hesitation. If your mate had a bad fall it's quite reasonable that she has an injury. Also would ask vet to recommend a qualified physio to work with her once you have a proper diagnosis. Best of luck- hope you get to the bottom of this ;)
 

Blythe Spirit

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Sorry I'm completely confused too. What was the diagnosis?

Did the vet say how long she will be in rehab for before you notice a difference?

What was the prognosis?

He does not really know what the 'diagnosis' is just what was presenting (ie painful hamstrings) and he had no idea of prognosis as he claims she is OK - just not being effectively ridden
 

Abacus

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It does seem a little odd to specify a rehab programme for a horse with an undiagnosed problem. However I do see that there are some conditions (e.g. mild kissing spines, locking stifle, probably lots of others) which benefit from work and only become apparent when the horse is out of work for some time. So it may be the case that you follow the programme and she comes sound. If she were mine I would want to know the root cause of course.

As she has had rest from the injury and not come right, I can't see that turning away for longer will help, unless she needs even more time to get over the specific injury in the field. I can see that she might have something wrong which will go away again with work.
 

Blythe Spirit

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Thanks - its been very frustrating as basically I keep saying there must be a reason my once happy horse is now not happy and keep being told by the vet she is fine and I just can't ride. I did point out that i have been the only person to ride her all along and she was happy enough with me previously. vet says she has learned to exploit me because of her time off and does not now see why she should work hard for me. I have certainly gone as far as I can with this vet - all three instructors say I ride her just fine and she is probably in some pain somewhere or at least remembers being in pain. I would try a bute trial but i don't have any.
 

CobsGalore

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I'm so sorry, sounds like you have both had a rough time of it recently.

I would definitely be getting a second opinion from another vet. I personally think that she is trying to tell you something, not being 'a cow' as your vet put it.

I would also be looking at getting a physio out. Sometimes they pick things up that vets overlook.

I don't think I would be working her hard until I got to the bottom of the problem though.

Good luck
 

Blythe Spirit

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Thanks 'CobsGalore' going to give her one more week whilst I get some video of her and then a second opinion. I don't think she is being a cow either - although she can be nappy out hacking by nature she is timid and wants to please and was very very easy to train and bring on. compared to what she was doing she is not being worked hard - just work to try and strengthen weaknesses - ie gradual transitions and long and low trying to get some swing back....
 

ester

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The cynic in me thinks your vet strung you along with a rehab program meaning a stay with them in the first place rather than doing sufficient diagnostics/refering if they weren't able to diagnose themselves.
 

L&M

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Gosh - that i is a long list of problems and you have my sympathy now I understand the situation better. I also think your vet is being very unfair on blaming your riding......what a cruel thing to say to somone in your position!

Going back to the original question I doubt very much you would find a home for her with her current condition. I think your options are:

1. Get another vet's opinion

2. Carry on as you are and hope the rehab programme works - if it does then you can look at re-homing her.

3. If she doesn't come right, pts as she does not sound very good 'companion' material from your op.

Sorry not to be more helpful x
 

ihatework

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I think I would want a diagnosis on her first.

But essentially she doesn't sound dissimilar to one of my horses.
He had an accident on a horsewalker and damaged his sacroiliac.
I spent 15 months giving him time off and then bringing him back to fitness and assess what he was/wasn't capable of long term and I came to the conclusion that his best chance of a long term useful life was as a light hack.

It took a while to find him the right home, probably nearly 3 months in total, but we got there in the end and it seems to be working well. He has 1 danilon a day just to keep him ticking over.
 

Blythe Spirit

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The cynic in me thinks your vet strung you along with a rehab program meaning a stay with them in the first place rather than doing sufficient diagnostics/refering if they weren't able to diagnose themselves.

Thanks, I can see your point - it crossed my mind too _ but I try to resist cynicism -as i am getting more and more cynical the older I get and I am only 39 so I'd best watch out lest I become a really grumpy old woman! :)
 

Blythe Spirit

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I think I would want a diagnosis on her first.

But essentially she doesn't sound dissimilar to one of my horses.
He had an accident on a horsewalker and damaged his sacroiliac.
I spent 15 months giving him time off and then bringing him back to fitness and assess what he was/wasn't capable of long term and I came to the conclusion that his best chance of a long term useful life was as a light hack.

It took a while to find him the right home, probably nearly 3 months in total, but we got there in the end and it seems to be working well. He has 1 danilon a day just to keep him ticking over.

thanks that's quite encouraging in some ways :)
 

Bobbly

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Did anyone actually see her fall? I might be that she has damaged more muscles than you thought. Especially up through her front legs and chest hence the not wanting to lengthen strides which would of course also impact on lots of other muscles not just her hamstrings, maybe she did the 'splits' like an old racehorse picture? My friends mare did this in Spain slipping on concrete and ended up having to come back to me here, she was not fixed for quite some time, end of October is not so long ago really?
 

Pearlsasinger

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As I said on your previous thread, I'd sack that vet and find out what is really wrong with this mare. Then you can make a decision about her future.
It is quite possible that an experienced rider would be prepared to take her on as a happy hacker and work through her nappiness when hacking alone - all happy hackers are not novices! But I do think that if you want to secure her future you would need to loan her and be prepared to take her back if necessary, even if only while you find her a new loan home.
 

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Vets can't get to the bottom of everything, even if you do have a bottomless pit of money to throw at diagnostics. then if something is diagnosed it doesn't mean this necessarily a clearcut explanation for everything so assuming it is fixable, which it might not be, you won't necessarily get back the horse you had after treatment.

Have you tried just turning her away? Then maybe start again with the rehab stuff? It does sound like in the long term you need to find out for sure that she's comfortable, happy and able to stand up to fairly low level work, then market her for that if you want to sell. I'd be worried about selling something with a real mystery health problem though which might worsen, it might be more responsible to just have her pts if you can't sort her out for yourself or so she's a good prospect to sell.
 

Wagtail

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I would turn her away for at least a year and not even think of riding her until after that time and then bring her back very gradually.
 

Blythe Spirit

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As I said on your previous thread, I'd sack that vet and find out what is really wrong with this mare. Then you can make a decision about her future.
It is quite possible that an experienced rider would be prepared to take her on as a happy hacker and work through her nappiness when hacking alone - all happy hackers are not novices! But I do think that if you want to secure her future you would need to loan her and be prepared to take her back if necessary, even if only while you find her a new loan home.

Yes good point about not all happy hackers being novices - she is not so hard to deal with after all i have hacked her alOne 100 times myself and enjoyed it despite the occasional plant!

Rode her tonight and not happy lots of tail swishing then just when i was finished i picked up reins just to walk off and she had a proper temper tantrum head tossing tail swishing jibbing bouncing grunting. I tried to just swing her into a loose long trot but with only some sucess - ok its second opinion time only question is who to use.
 
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