is this a phase? i need help to get over it!

Just seen your reply to another thread in new lounge in which part of it you state;

" I have also got competitions planned for the next three weekends and competed the last three weekends too"

I hope for your mares sake that you are talking about competing another horse - given that she is behaving in this manner and screaming at you that she can't cope.
 
Having read through this post where on earth were you allowed to compete her as a 3 year old ? I suggest you follow the majority of advice and give her a lovely holiday until spring and maybe go away and learn some horse sense
 
Having read the other replies, watched the videos and read some of your other posts I would suggest that she really needs a break! The 3 year olds I have dealt with have all been on a professional competition yard where they were broken as 3 year olds, and by this I mean started on the lunge, then with a rider quietly in the school in walk, trot and canter, not really worrying about where their head is etc, trotting over poles and little fences in the school then hacking quietly in walk and trot with another horse. They were ALL then turned away for about 3 or 4 months then bought back into work in the late spring of their 4 year old year.
 
Also you mention in another post about going in at the deep end in BE100 - if this relates to the horse being discussed in this thread OMG:eek:

You are going to wreck her & sorry if that sounds harsh!

I have a 4 year old who is lunged & gently schooled & through a post I put up about "not being worked enough" I realised the length of what I was doing was too much & have cut back! Its a marathon not a sprint..
Take today for example, good grooming session followed by 15 mins free school followed by introducing her to a bit of In hand show work & that was more than enough for her. We have done 1 show this year to get her used to atmosphere & may take her around a SMALL course of jumps in a month or so but thats it - she needs time to mature.
 
Auslander said:
Interesting response. Do you not feel that the reason for her behaviour should be addressed, rather than just suggesting she bashes 'it'. This is a green 4 yr old who was out cross-country schooling, and competing as a 3 yr old, and has not had a break. I suspect she would come back a much happier and more amenable character after a good holiday.
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My 4 year old can nap, but I dont let him get away with it and for now hes forgotten. I agree it needs a break but I personally would have a week to improve the napping and give the horse a break after
 
OP you seem to have gone very quiet, so I assume you are going to ignore all of us now that you don't like the advice.....however.....

Give the horse a BREAK. Turn her away for the winter, let her grow up and be a horse. This poor mare is trying to tell you she is struggling and getting spurs dug in her ribs for it.

She is a BABY. Take the advice for the sake of your mare. there are enough broken down young horses both physically and mentally around, right now you are on the road to creating another one.
 
Cheiro1 said:
OP you seem to have gone very quiet, so I assume you are going to ignore all of us now that you don't like the advice.....however.....

Give the horse a BREAK. Turn her away for the winter, let her grow up and be a horse. This poor mare is trying to tell you she is struggling and getting spurs dug in her ribs for it.

She is a BABY. Take the advice for the sake of your mare. there are enough broken down young horses both physically and mentally around, right now you are on the road to creating another one.
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My thought entirely!!
 
i've written this about 5 times and keeps being too long so. I'm asking for help with a napping issue but every post i write you all bring it back to turning her away - this is not always as easy said than done with some horses. she suffers awfully with UFP - there is no quick fix for this, no medication she can take the vets have spoken about an operation but have not advised this due to her age and it is not known if there are any complications later on in her life - their advise was to work her this is why she was backed in the first place i spoke to my vet about this and he had no problem. i also do not live in an ideal world and its not just as simple as 'just leave her in the field' I'm sorry but its not. i am able to give her a week or twos holiday every few weeks and she had 5 weeks off whilst i was away june/july and after this she was locking in the mornings. call me selfish but I'm not willing to see her in this sort of distress if i can help it? immobile until she can free herself? for future reference her work load is as follows sunday:out/hack monday:day off tuesday:day off wednesday:lunge thursday: lunge/day off/hack friday:lesson saturday:hack. since taking you advise from my last post and her 5week holiday, i've backed off her in the school and we've gone back to basics and i can and instructor can tell a huge difference in her way of going but i wasn't asking about this - i was asking for help with her napping - this is not something i want to encourage which is why I'm asking for help! but by asking for help i get shot down? i know my horse better than any of you she is not an unhappy, stressed horse quite the opposite the farrier only commented the other day how relaxed our horses on the yard were. she is not at all nappy at home and loves to hack is actually better on her own - i've taken her out a few times to other venues and she's been nappy before starting and has then been better but I'm asking for help - not carrying on regardless as some of you are thinking i am. last time you suggested i started taking her to dressage but now i am - I'm asking her to perform which i shouldn't be doing? i never take her in aiming for a win - infact the complete opposite, i don't have any expectations and i don't push her she's napping she is young and she's pushing the boundaries like they do. her tack is fine, her back is fine and her teeth are fine. i do not have her on a strict competition routine aimed at a certain event on a certain date - i have no plans and take each day as it comes she is a very happy horse with a lot of variety she hacks, she has lessons, she goes out, she goes to the beach, she lunges and she spends the rest of her time in the field being a horse. i do think now when i was a working pupil she was pushed too hard too fast but what did i know - i was there to learn? and you expect them to do whats right - who was i to argue with them? and to clear a few things up no i am not aiming her at a BE100 i have never eventide so why would i go straight in there? i don't jump her between competitions she has jumped a total once at home since bringing her home in april from the working pupil - i do not have a course of jumps so could not possibly tell you if she naps at them at home - which is why i take her out - i don't go out to be competitive on her i take her out to see the courses and fillers ect which is where she is napping and I'm asking for help! i cannot afford the £45 to hire an arena with jumps for an hour swell as hiring transport. i have not competed her 6 weeks in a row she had show jumping on sunday and dressage intro b next sunday we'd entered before we put two and two together (before you tell me this is cruel to take her out two weeks in a row, she has had monday and tuesday off, i lunged her today and she'll have tomorrow off too as i have to work)one of the showing dates was cancelled where we were going for in hand anyway, one is a fun ride on the 30th and two dates were dressage for another horse. i don't do sitting trot on her, I'm useless at it anyway, yes when she's napping in one of the videos i did sit its hard to rise when she stops every time you do and i was just trying to keep her forward the only time i've sat to her. it may have been wrong but once again I'm asking for help, constructive help to get over this or as you would probably put it help to stop me ruining my horse for life. you'll probably see this as defending my self and you'll see me carrying on the way i was distressing my horse even more and ruining her. but there are faults in most of the comments making me out to be this monster owner who only cares about competing - i don't, couldn't careless. i just enjoy her and she is happy in her work. if it was a 5,6,7 or 8yo napping like this would your answers be the same? why is it because she's four she's distressed or in pain is it impossible for a four year old to push the boundaries to see how far they can get? i've had enough of explaning myself to people who don't know my horse again your creating images of me as a horse owner from bits of posts that don't show the whole picture that are far from the truth and i obviously can't say anything to change your opinions, i appreciate the help you have given me re less schooling more hacking and if you are concerned for her welfare please do ring some one to report me or come and meet us yourself and you will find a happy content horse who yes does have her issues she's been a stubborn bu**er since she was a year old. i do take on any advice i receive, i am very open minded and try a lot of things if you would give me a chance to prove myself.
 
There is working and there is working a horse - exercise to stop her from locking and keep her muscled is one thing, and what you seem to be doing is entirely different.
There is no simple answer to her napping that we could just give you over the internet. You need to look for triggers, analyse your riding, her behaviour and the environment. Obviously, neither the spurs nor the smacking her around (erratic at best) a course of jumps is sorting the issue for you, is it? So maybe it's time to try different tactics, no?
 
so schooling her once a week is too much? because thats all she's currently doing the rest is work on the lunge hacking and days off? i never smack her around and probably don't get tough enough with her which is why it appears I'm letting her get away with this behaviour and turning her into a potentially dangerous horse. i never said the course of jumps was solving the napping i said this is where she naps and how can i over come it? I'm all for constructive criticism but none of the comments above are constructive - 5 pages of people telling me how I'm currently ruining my horse when I'm asking for help I'm asking to try different tactics but no one has offered any - In my original post i asked whether i should be coaxing her through this quietly or riding her more forcefully and determined as i experimented with on sunday but did anyone answer this? its all about how I'm a cruel owner who works her horse into the ground, she's going to be ruined and quite obviously a welfare case because i can't give her 4 months off to vegetate in a field?
 
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Exercise her, not school her. Leave her to mature and come to your way of thinking.
That's all I can tell you; but you have a vet and a farrier and an instructor advising you, if they say different and that advice suits you better - just do as you do.
 
You need to get her on your side, I think her first outing over-faced her and she has not got over it. Some fun rides with optional jumps, do just a few once she is really thinking forward and keep the pressure off, she needs to think it is her idea of fun. Back off over the winter and school quietly out hacking, get her nice and sweet, moving off your leg, as she improves her strength she should gain more confidence aim for her to be taking you forward at all times.
In the spring a pairs hunter trial or xc schooling with the same plan, get her moving forward and just jump a few fences that are inviting and easy for her, you really need to keep everything so simple that she feels it is so easy and never gets stretched physically or mentally when in new places.
When you are ready to try a competition again go just for a clear round as small as possible, poles just off the ground that she can trot over would be perfect for getting her going, ideally go somewhere and just ride round without any need to do more than a few practise jumps and not even go into the ring.
Breaking the pattern of behaviour will do more in the long term than trying to ride through it and only doing half a job as whenever she is under pressure she is likely to revert and the napping will become even more habitual.
 
How about this - if she is happy at home and doing the routine things that you do without any napping, then just stick to that. It would seem that the trigger for napping is taking her to shows, so simply take the stressor away - don't go to shows for the next few months, then you won't get any napping and so you avoid the problem. (If you do this and 6 months/a year down the line she is still napping, then that's another issue.)

If you stop the shows and therefore remove the stressor, you will take the pressure off, essentially turning her away mentally as people have suggested. You can still have fun at home - do nice long hacks, get some books like Kelly Marks perfect partners, or Sally Swift's centered riding and practice some of the exercises from them, building up your relationship with the wee mare. Then when you finally do take her back out and about, you will have much better building blocks to work on. Jump small things at home for fun, making grids out of whatever you have to hand, just odd poles on buckets if need be (!) keeping her thinking forward and fun - just do whatever she seems to enjoy. Pony her around on a loose rein like a western horse, teaching her to turn from your seat and make tight turns around objects - I still do all of this with my backward nine year old, just to keep him interested and fresh - its really good for you too!

I understand no shows might be disappointing and boring, but just letting her be a baby for this winter in her comfortable environment, will pay off in the long run. You look like you love her to bits and this could be a chance to really cement your relationship.
 
Everything that be positive said. She looks quite tight and up in her neck too. I'd be hacking and hacking, loads of getting her to stretch down, take you forward and build her back muscles up so she is working correctly. Fun rides, hill work, getting her used to seeing as much as you can out and about. I'd also dump the spurs and loosen the martingale. If she needs one at this age, something isn't right. Use a neck strap if you need to
If she keeps napping and arguing she is just going to get more and more sour, make it fun for her
 
I don't think anyone realised she had locking stifles so that's why you had 5 pages of people telling you to give her a break.

If you need to keep her in work for that, I would stick to hacking, incorporate hills if you can to help her strengthen up and ditch the schooling.
Personally, I would swap it for long reining as I don't like lunging but I know lunging is good for stifles.

I know you say you can't afford arena hire but if you must take her out this year, take her out less often and do the arena hire.
My horse is a 6yro and he is only doing arena hire now as he can have a nappy streak and I want to give him the best possible introduction to competing- which for now means getting him used to working and jumping away from home and I will bring in the other people/horses/tannoy later :)
I only take him out every 5-6 weeks as it is expensive, but IMO, better than taking them out more often and having battles.

You need to break this cycle as napping can so quickly become an ingrained habit; foreceful riding doesn't work with 99% of mares so you need to think a little more outside the box and try to avoid a confrontation in the first place if you can.
 
I have just read some of the replies.

Personally, I would cut out the competing & just enjoy her at home with less pressure for a while. The money you save on entry fees could pay for arena hire/lesson every week. Give her a nice & chilled few months & then try again next year xxx
 
The reason people aren't giving you ideas for how to ride her when she is napping is because it is far more effective to find out the reason why a horse is napping and address that, than try to tackle full-on napping in a competitive environment.

You don't need to hire an arena with jumps - in fact it would be much better to hire an arena without jumps. You need to break everything down into small chunks for her - so tackle the problem of her insecurity in a new arena without the complication of asking to jump at the same time. Are there any arenas locally you can hack to to save the cost of transport? If not, it costs just as much to transport to a show, so skip the competing for a few weeks, and use the money for transport/arena hire. When you get to a strange arena just concentrate on making it fun and pleasurable for her. Don't work her too hard in there, as you just reinforce the association between new venues and stress.

If she doesn't jump courses at home, it is a huge leap to go to a new venue and go round a course. You don't need a proper course of jumps to practice at homes, lots of people improvise. Whilst you don't want to be doing tons of jumping at home, when you go back to jumping her, you can set up a very small improvised course using as little as three jumps. I'd start off very small and in trot and just work on getting her to pop around happily without having to drive her, and concentrate on keeping her straight, getting good turns and keeping her willingly forward (especially when going away from the gate and/or other horses) and in a good rhythm. There is no point in increasing the height until she can negotiate a small course properly. If you don't have fillers than you can improvise by putting other spooky things under the jumps - I've used artificial flowers, plastic plant troughs, sheets of plastic etc. just to get a horse accustomed to jumping more than just poles.

I'd also suggest you read one or two books on horse psychology because it does sound like you really need to understand how your mare thinks and why she does what she does.
 
Locking stifles: I don't think you mentioned this before. If you are under vet's orders to keep her in a certain amount of work then, of course, you need to keep going, but I would keep it just hacking, up hills if possible and as much turn-out as possible. I would mention one thing to you, the napping on top of the UFP may be indicative of a more serious problem. I had a horse with stifle OCD whose symptom was locking patelas but we didn't realise the extent of the problem until he was nerve blocked. Is she insured? Can you get a referral to an orthopaedic specialist to rule out more serious issues?

The napping: people have been strongly advising you to avoid confronting the napping head on because she is quite young and is justified in saying 'no' to too much competition/new work and, to put it bluntly, you are losing the argument which is setting a behavioural precedent. Again to be blunt: you are teaching her to turn away and rear when she doesn't want to do something.

Practical advice with the napping is difficult because you may get yourself seriously hurt, but since you feel people are not helping here it goes:
1. Wear a BP and a neck strap
2. Keep your legs long and use them effectively, i.e. subtle aid, strong aid, big boot, back to subtle aid. Keep your back straight and be sure to give with the hands the moment she goes forward (forget about outline). Stay in rising trot, you are not sending her forward when you sit you are using your back to block with your hands.
3. The first time she hesitates, giver her a good tap with the whip (hold onto neckstrap, sit up!), if she bucks give her another tap for bucking - your reaction has to be instantaneous.
4. If she spins, unspin her, don't complete the circle, i.e. if she spins to the left, open the right hand and unspin her, don't allow her to continue all the way to the left to return where she was.
5. If she tries to rear keep her head and neck bent to one side, it's less easy for them to rear this way. However make sure you do not unbalance her too much as you can make her fall.

In conclusion...get a professional to do all this for you while you do the stuff she enjoys! Also do it while schooling so that you do not have the pressure of a competition. I appreciate money is tight but if you can afford to compete you can afford to rent an arena instead (45 quid for renting an arena sounds very expenssive, perhaps there are better deals elsewhere?).
 
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my horse has sticking stifles and lots of hacking is the way to go. Also walking or trotting over poles with one end slightly raised so he has to pick his feet up. I was told that lunging isn't great for th as it puts pressure on the stifle so maybe try long lining instead.
Giving your girl a rest from comps sounds like a good plan then go back next year and see how it goes. Good luck :-)
 
Just a general comment re: locking stifles.

One of mine suffers from a (very mild) locking stifle and I find I can only lunge her once a week - any more actually makes the problem worse. I also tend to keep her in work because of this but if I want to her to have a break I switch to gentle hacking and back off the schooling/jumping/competing so that she can wind-down mentally.

The other thing that will help strengthen her stifle is hill work in walk and trot - I live in flat Lincolnshire which is not helpful (:rolleyes:) but do have some small hills which I go up and down 5 or 6 times on a hack to get the benefits.

Good luck with her, she looks lovely. :)
 
evj said:
my horse has sticking stifles and lots of hacking is the way to go. Also walking or trotting over poles with one end slightly raised so he has to pick his feet up. I was told that lunging isn't great for th as it puts pressure on the stifle so maybe try long lining instead.
Giving your girl a rest from comps sounds like a good plan then go back next year and see how it goes. Good luck :-)
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Cross posted - snap! :D
 
If she has UFP, then I can totally understand why she needs to be in work.

She doesn't need to compete quite so much though (from what I've read of what you do with her).

I personally wouldn't lunge a horse with UFP, but others may disagree.

So, you can't turn her away - fair enough. But you can give her a mental break by just hacking, and then the odd schooling day.

As for the napping - think about hunting her over the winter, it can work wonders for a genuine napper. You'll both have an enormous amount of fun. And then have a think about your plans for her next summer, when she comes back to you mentally and physically stronger after a winters hunting, and a break thereafter.
 
You didn't mention the horse had locking stifles before, which is why people say turn her away, however even with locking stifles she doesnt NEED to be competing/haring round courses of jumps etc. It doesn't change the fast she is a baby.

Back off the competing/schooling/lunging just hack her for a while. Maybe take her to some fun rides and as AmyMay said take her hunting. All things which will get her really thinking forward and allow her to grow up and build muscle without the force.

All of this is plenty to keep her moving, but without the pressure on a young immature horse.
 
All I will mention is the courses aren't tiny, they are well built am I right in thinking about 80cm? and spooky.
How about taking her to do some tiny little step over rounds, she can jump quite obviously. So just concentrate on a lovely rhythm and canter round some piddly courses, that way she soaks up the atmosphere, gains confidence and learns what is expected of her...?

This is what i'm doing with Buds over the winter, s'all about both or our confidence!!!!
 
Off the top of my head, both Brantwood and Sparsholt rent their indoor schools for schooling for a lot less than £45/hour.
 
I wondered why noone had mentioned a bit of hunting and was going to ask why although am no expert.

OP I think you need to remember that going to a show = new environment, other horses, travelling, poss more nervous than normal rider etc and therefore can be quite a lot for a youngster to deal with mentally as much as physically. If you must take her out you need to keep outings as enjoyable as possible, so perhaps just doing one dressage test, or a couple of clear rounds jumping .. although if she jumps well the first time leave it at that. It can be tempting to try and get your moneys worth from a trip in the trailer at times ;) and I think we have poss been guilty of doing that with mum's mare when she was younger but I think less is often more.

Fwiw re arena hire.. it doesn't always have to be on your own (join an RC?, some do group hire of show centres) and even if more expensive is likely to be of more value than competing her frequently as she currently stands.

Overall I think you need to come up with a good plan and stick to it for the winter then bring her back in the spring.
 
hi do you have a riding club near you, there are a couple near me which have a winter training program, which is group lessons. maybe have a hacking pony between now and xmas and then start lessons away from home, keep it fun and there is not pressure for the bell. the pressure is removed she will learn to work in different environments and hopefully relax into fun, learn to work away from others and gain confidence.
 
To me: Above comments.
But in both the napping videos it becomes clear to me that you don't have control of her shoulders. J used to do something similar and we worked through it by getting control of the shoulders. (particularly his left shoulder.) So we did a lot of effectively 'working' walk pirouettes. Ie, quarter turn to the right with stick in left hand to push his shoulders across. There is nothing wrong with tapping your horses shoulder with a stick if it has the effect of moving them across! You are not actually working towards a proper, 'collected' walk work but you do want to be able to say "I want your left shoulder here, now your right shoulder here". Worked well with him and it would be something you can have a play with at home. Make sure you keep the neck relatively straight whilst doing this!
 
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