Is this abuse?

IMO no I dont think they are cruel. If my dog behaved like that first one then she would get alot more than just a choke collar pulled tight round her neck!
 
I can see your point, but these dogs are dangerous, potential killers. This is there last chance of being 'fixed' before being pts. I know a horse can kill but it doesnt have the same instincts as dogs, a predator. If a horse was fighting to this degree, & the horse in the Parelli video wasnt, I'm sure anything & everything would be tried even if it did go against the grain.
 
It's interesting really. I posted this because I had a long converstion with a canine behaviour expert at lunch today, who explained in detail why Cesar's methods are abusive, and how his "behaviour" theories are flawed. If you Google a bit there are some pretty powerful arguments against what he does, enough to make me think twice anyway.
I've seen this "last change before pts" argued before, normally in relation to some drastic remedy applied by Monty Roberts. I suppose the question is, when there are other ways to deal with these supposedly dangerous animals that wouldn't put them through so much fear and stress, is it right to carry on regardless? Or does the fact that people think the animal is dangerous and might hurt them justify them using any remedy on them, even if it is cruel?
Is the real reason that people are prepared to have their animals treated this way simply that they don't know that kinder methods are available that would be just as effective? Are the owners also accepting the word of one trainer re behaviour and training as gospel without checking to make sure that what they are being told is sound? This is what it is said Parelli students do isn't it?
 
i remember seeing this one on the tv and this was VERY agressive, I think its not cruel, i think this dog needs to learn its place in the pack. I dont think being kind to this dog is going to make it less agressive at all, i think it needs to be put in its place.
its different with horses - they are flight animals and you dont usually get anywhere as a human putting a horse in its place with violence.
- dogs are prey animals and are part of a pack, they need to know where their place is within that pack - dont forget we allow these animals into ours homes - who lives with an agressive horse in their house?
 
I hear these days that it is becoming a popular belief that the only ethical way to train any animal is with CT and only +R... cues aren't ever -R anymore, some new fancy name for them.

There seems to be a lot of pressure and aversive to me involved in spreading the CT word though. lol
 
Your post is interesting reading. My mates a dog groomer and although obviously not a behaviourist, grooming, clipping, bathing etc often brings out the worst in dogs so she's extremely experienced as to how to handle difficult ones.

She doesn't rate him at all. She was fuming at one programme with a bulldog which he basically ran well beyond the point of exhaustion. The dog was super unfit, had difficultly breathing at the best of times and seemed really pretty distressed when he stopped. Running an animal to the point of exhaustion doesn't 'teach' them anything and is absolutely no guarantee it will lead to a dog which is more pliable to train simply because it is absolutely knackered.

I've seen a few - one with a german shepherd - and thought Caesers whole body language was very nervous. I've got GSD's and think it was pretty much GSD behaviour - coming up barking very closely etc and not the huge drama he was making it out to be.
 
I don't use CT at all, I don't see the point, but then I'm a horse person. I think it might be more relevant with dogs... hmmm...
The behaviourist I was talking to uses a mixture of positive and negative reinforcement. It's very difficult to train an animal with purely positive reinforcement.
Interesting that I just spent a couple of hours reading around the internet this afternoon (it's too bloomin' cold to be outside!!). Already I can see that there are some very respected behaviourists who basically say that Milan's "pack talk" is discredited, outdated behaviour theory.
Really, I started this post because I could see so many similarities with this and topics about Parelli and Monty. It is so easy to believe that the biggest, loudest and most famous person must be right. Rather like Parelli etc, I'm starting to think that if you look into the topic a bit more closely, there are much better trainers than Milan. Trainers who are well capable of dealing with these dangerous dogs.
 
No dog ever, ever deserves this sort of treatment: I have owned dogs my entire life, all of whom have been rescues suffering with a combination of emotional and physical trauma, neglect and cruelty - and to see clips like these make me absolutely furious.
All one needs to do is monitor the dogs' behaviour and body language: whining, running away from the man, tails between their legs, bodies low to the ground, trying to hide from him and fearful eyes when near him ... this isn't training and this is no expert. This is a bully and a cheat. Anyone who can watch someone inflict this method upon their dog doesn't deserve to be a dog owner, yet at the same time I pity them for accepting this man's methods just because, being an apparent "expert" must therefore make him right. It doesn't.
 
[ QUOTE ]
i remember seeing this one on the tv and this was VERY agressive, I think its not cruel, i think this dog needs to learn its place in the pack. I dont think being kind to this dog is going to make it less agressive at all, i think it needs to be put in its place.
its different with horses - they are flight animals and you dont usually get anywhere as a human putting a horse in its place with violence.
- dogs are prey animals and are part of a pack, they need to know where their place is within that pack - dont forget we allow these animals into ours homes - who lives with an agressive horse in their house?

[/ QUOTE ]
same!
shocked.gif
grin.gif
 
These are dangerous dogs. Dogs are totally different to horses, they are predators not prey animals. I dont like the use of shock collars but I do think his method of making a dominant dog submit works and helps gain control over them. I would like to know how on earth other trainers would handle them.
 
When my lab bitch had pups she became very aggressive to dogs passing our gate. It became really bad and she meant business. If she could have got at the dogs on the other side of the gate I dread to think what the outcome would have been. This behaviour went on for some time and I tried distraction, bribing and yelling at her, to no avail, she was going to kill them if she had the chance. What made it worse was the fact that she was the softest lovliest girl ever and a brilliant mum.

One day I was at the gate with her lead in my hand ready to put it on to go for a walk and a dog passed by. She started growling, well roaring really and throwing herself at the gate in a frenzy. Without thinking I whopped her with the lead across her rib cage. Not something I would dream of doing normally. She stopped immediately and sat down.

She has never displayed the aggressive behavior since. She does a short bark to let me know some other dog is about but no growling, no agression and remains calm.

I do not recommend what I did but, sometimes extreme measures do work. Dogs can be very dangerous and I think Ceasar does a good job. sometimes not very pretty but the dogs are often a step away from being PTS.

Jane
 
I don't think it is abuse as such. I personally don't have the experience in training very aggressive/difficult dogs to say whether it was completely wrong or not. In general I hate all of these dog training shows (particularly that stillman woman) as there is very rarely a quick fix for behaviour problems and it gives people at home the wrong impression.

Although I do believe in using lots of positive re-inforcement I had a very similar experience to why worry. My cat had deceided to start howling in the middle of the night. I tried lots of behavioural methods and read about every book on cat behaviour going. Eventualy I lost my temper, grabbed her by her scruff shouted at her and smacked her very hard. Now I know you should not smack cats but it worked. She hid under the bed for about an hour then was quiet for the rest of the night. Silence for 5 days then she started again. I chased her beneath the bed where she hid for 5 mins, coming out and asking to be friends. Occassionaly she will start this up and she just needs a verbal reminder that I am not happy and she will stop.

I am not a cat beater. It was one hard smack and I still feel guilty. She was not sore when I stroked her the next day so perhaps not that hard a smack. When you have not slept for a month you get to the end of your teather. Interestingly I would never have tolerated that sort of disruptive behaviour from a horse or dog but cats are strange creatures and forgiveness is not high on their list of priorities
tongue.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top