Is this bad news for Monty???

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Fimbacob

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I hope the link works! I am not quite sure what to make of this and would like to know peoples opinions. I am not really a fan of any particular training method, I believe what works for one horse may not work for another and all should be treated as individuals and people should use their common sense and experience as to what works best for their horse. However, this article has made me rethink a few of my ideas and I would love to know how others feel...

(I'm not a troll! Just curious!)
 
Oooh intresting study!

thanks for sharing :D hopefully this will mean that further research is done into training methods.

off to find the full article...
 
Thanks for that. It confirms my own feelings and dislike of 'join up'. The only time it is useful IMO, is with a horse that is difficult to catch.
 
That made me smile. Particularly the bit about them needing 4 cars because some horses would just stomp them - I suspect that's what Bree would do. :)

I'm not a fan of gurus, but have found his way of explaining join up easy to follow and the technique very useful for getting my horse from snorty dragon to one listening and ready to do some training.

Paula
 
I think a lot of NH methods are sound sense. But that sense deteriorates when it has to be pre-digested into anthropomorphic nonsense for sale to the general public for the purposes of making money!

I suspect chasing a horse around invokes a fear response, which horses are well adapted to cope with. Release of the threat brings relief and feelings of pleasure. How many on here enjoyed reading scary stories as kids and perhaps even enjoy being scared in the safety of their own homes as adults by watching horror movies?

Do untouched horses really read and understand the subtleties of human body language without any previous experience? Personally, I doubt it, but if it works, don't knock it. I'll use any humane training method if it gets me where I want to go and I'm not too bothered what you call it! (I don't use join up, btw).
 
Dry Rot said:
I think a lot of NH methods are sound sense. But that sense deteriorates when it has to be pre-digested into anthropomorphic nonsense for sale to the general public for the purposes of making money!

I suspect chasing a horse around invokes a fear response, which horses are well adapted to cope with. Release of the threat brings relief and feelings of pleasure. How many on here enjoyed reading scary stories as kids and perhaps even enjoy being scared in the safety of their own homes as adults by watching horror movies?

Do untouched horses really read and understand the subtleties of human body language without any previous experience? Personally, I doubt it, but if it works, don't knock it. I'll use any humane training method if it gets me where I want to go and I'm not too bothered what you call it! (I don't use join up, btw).
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My boy follows me around, it suggests he is waiting for his next meal!
Making myself LARGE will stop most horses running over me, that is common sense, but I would not try it with some of them!
Most horses are clever enough, and willing enough to tolerate, and read the trainers signals, that is all it is.
 
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Surely what the study describes is how we train horses? We apply a stimulus and remove it when the horse makes the right response? I don't get what the point was?
 
It makes perfect sense to me. Humans & cars are both different to horses, so just as likely to 'work' with one as the other. It might well be a quick way for the likes of monty or Richard Maxwell to get a new horse to respect them, but not sure it is actually necessary. It's easy to get a horses trust & respect with other methods, without having to worry about whether the response we trigger is exactly what we want. The 4 cars just re-inforce my belief join up is more about dominance than leadership. They submit because they have to, not by choice. Which is why join up, even by montys own admission doesn't work with truly dominant horses. One of mine would be classed as dangerous in terms of join up. Not through dominance, but fear aggression.
The whole body language thing is nothing new, good horsemanship relied on it long before monty was born. While monty himself may well have a better approach than 'cowboy' breaking, its not that different to English horsemanship. And I do hate the whole 'its the only kind way' marketing approach of nh. Duallys are no different to stallion chains. But because chains look harsh, & aren't marketed as 'kind' most people don't see them as a simple solution to everyday problems. Whereas every man & his dog now somehow 'needs' a dually. There's nothing wrong with an experienced person deciding that they need a dually or chain as a short term measure. But even just on here duallys are recommended for the slightest thing. Ten yrs ago, very few people used chains, so I now find it difficult to believe so many need duallys. I can only conclude that for many, they have looked no further than the nh 'kind' labelling, & haven't got the wit to realise they are just using an expensive stallion chain. Which is basically a tool for control, not leadership.
 
I notice that Richard Maxwell has done away with the round pen. I remember being surprised that he advocated doing join up before almost every training session with a youngster in his book 'from birth to backing'. Now he says he has done away with the round pen and mostly done away with join up. One of the reasons he gives is that most of his clients don't have a round pen and so it was silly using it and then sending horses back to their owners that couldn't do the same thing. And that this doing away with the round pen made him realise that join up is not at all necessary. And that it can even be confusing to a horse that is already 'joined up' with its owner.
 
I've seen this study in the past.

What really bugs me about all this scientific stuff, is the inferred assumption that horses are a bit thick. This in my view is completely wrong, when you know that horses can spot the difference between a scowl and a smile. Most researchers are somewhere else on the autism spectrum, this I feel must taint their conclusions. Mind you, I like to paint with a broad brush, lol.
Applying a lot of the psychobabble that people do with horses, doesn't mean much in the long run. Even the phraseology used gives completely the wrong ideas.
Join up specifically, I find clumsy and not a lot of use, but, there you go.
 
Interesting.
When my daughters TB was at college he was the only horse there they couldn't do join up with. The reason was he couldn't be frightened away! They tried shouting and waving arms and ropes and he wouldn't move, just looked at them like they were mad. Makes sense now. Thanks.
It might still be a useful technique for fearful horses - there's no shortage of those.
 
It's not about frightening them, but being in charge. Bree isn't afraid when I send her away, she just knows that it's non negotiable and she actually becomes more secure. When she's fresh and on her toes and pushy she's not happy at all because she's insecure when she thinks she's in control. By saying to her "actually I'm in charge, please do as I say and move away" without shouting and whipping, but with very firm body language, it takes the responsibility out of he hands and she can look to me when something scares her.

Paula
 
Paulag said:
It's not about frightening them, but being in charge. Bree isn't afraid when I send her away, she just knows that it's non negotiable and she actually becomes more secure. When she's fresh and on her toes and pushy she's not happy at all because she's insecure when she thinks she's in control. By saying to her "actually I'm in charge, please do as I say and move away" without shouting and whipping, but with very firm body language, it takes the responsibility out of he hands and she can look to me when something scares her.

Paula
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When my boy is fresh, he loves to buck and kick and gallop round the field, when in this mood, I am afraid, and don't jump on his back, bareback or otherwise. Common sense again.
 
But Paula, that just proves its not a method that works with all horses, & if its meant to be based on the language of 'equus' (sp?) surely all horses should speak it. And if we admit the fact not all speak it, then its surely flawed at a basic level?
My 23yr old would just blank you. She's a been there done that schoolmistress, & knows full well that with the majority of people she's in charge. Which is why she's a great nanny, for foals & kids alike. Because she is looking out for them. I can assure you she would ignore any attempts at join up, because she's secure enough as leader.
My other is fear aggressive. To her any hint of dominance is a threat to her life, so she'd attack to survive. She has very distinct views on the differences between leadership & dominance.
 
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