CinnamonChristmasCookie
Fais pas chier!
This.
It's not criminal damage, she has saved you a job and to be honest, anyone would want a hasp/padlock, so she's saved you a job.
Is this criminal damage?
- Thread starter Ionadiamond
- Start date
This.
It's not criminal damage, she has saved you a job and to be honest, anyone would want a hasp/padlock, so she's saved you a job.
maybedaisy
Well-Known Member
Trust me it is Criminal Damage, that does not mean the Police would take any action though.
Criminal damage is...
Damage
To Property
Belonging to another
That was damaged without lawful excuse
Intention to cause the damage / recklessness as to whether the damage would be caused
Damage
Definition of Damage
There is no specific definition of damage contained within the Criminal Damage Act 1971 and so it is up to the court on a case by case basis to establish whether there has in fact been damage taking into account matters of fact and degree. When discussing damage there are a couple of factors which should be taken into consideration however.
There is no requirement for the damage to be permanent. This could include smearing mud or paint etc on property
The damage does not have to be visible. In this case if the damage affects the proper functioning of the property then that will be taken to be damage regardless of the fact it cannot be seen.
Criminal damage is...
Damage
To Property
Belonging to another
That was damaged without lawful excuse
Intention to cause the damage / recklessness as to whether the damage would be caused
Damage
Definition of Damage
There is no specific definition of damage contained within the Criminal Damage Act 1971 and so it is up to the court on a case by case basis to establish whether there has in fact been damage taking into account matters of fact and degree. When discussing damage there are a couple of factors which should be taken into consideration however.
There is no requirement for the damage to be permanent. This could include smearing mud or paint etc on property
The damage does not have to be visible. In this case if the damage affects the proper functioning of the property then that will be taken to be damage regardless of the fact it cannot be seen.
CinnamonChristmasCookie
Fais pas chier!
Blimey. Too petty to go anywhere. It could be argued that the item has been enhanced, not damaged.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
I don't think you will get anything other than strife over this one, just be glad you got rid of someone you don't like.
Stinkbomb
Well-Known Member
Sorry but you are wrong. It was NOT the liveries intention to damage the box, her intention when she put the locks on was to secure her own property ( sensible idea ) The fact that the livery has been asked to leave is not her doing but the YO. therefore if removing the locks leaves holes it is not damage as her intention when fitting the locks was NOT to leave holes as im sure she didnt intend on moving!
maybedaisy
Well-Known Member
This could go on for ever but she has damaged the boxes and a reasonable person would know that damage would be caused by screwing into it. Yes her intention was to secure her property but that doesn't excuse damaging someone elses to do so.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
I would be peeved if they had done that without prior permission.
You say they have been given notice ?? I presume recently when did they actually drill holes in them??
Out of curiosity where did you get the boxes from ??
You say they have been given notice ?? I presume recently when did they actually drill holes in them??
Out of curiosity where did you get the boxes from ??
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
Yes she was going to secure her property !!!
Even so it was NOT her property to drill holes into into she should have asked the owner if she could first period , regardless if she was going to leave or asked to leave .
Does that mean if you borrow anything you have the right to deface it how ever you choose???? NO!!!!.
OP I would say to livery you want her to replace or repair it period!!!. She should leave things how they were found- repair things she damage ..
Now this trunk has holes in it spiders can get in ants can. dampness can , dust , thus the next person who uses it will not be pleased.
You are not in the wrong she did NOT ask you first she took it upon herself to drill into someone else's trunk for HER gain. I would give her an invoice to replace it tell her she can keep the one she damaged and you want her to replace it and return you trunk to how it was before she joined the yard.
ALL my liveries have a large chest freezer to store their stuff in NOT 1 has a lock on - no need no one touches other stuff.
ALL my liveries ask before they do anything ,
drill into stable wall for horse lick/ rug rack/ hook/ what ever , NOT one would take it upon themselves as to drill attach or anything without consulting me. Its call common courtesy .
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Honey08
Waffled a lot!
When you move on a livery yard you can't make permanant changes to a yard because you think you will never leave!! Of course you may be asked to leave at some point. Crazy to think otherwise! Yes its sensible to secure your things, but its not your right! You could provide your own lockable box, or take your things home!!
Mike007
Well-Known Member
A number of people here are getting confused betwean a civil matter and a criminal matter. For this to be a criminal matter there MUST be "mens Rea" Guilty intent. This is merely a rather petty civil matter.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
[/FONT]
It might be petty to you .
Your not the one who has had a £100 trunk damaged and defaced!
Most yard owners who spend this money on trunks for their liveries (most don't )out of kindness and thought giving these to them to use would trust their liveries enough that they don't go round penny pinching other peoples stuff, so it would not warrant a lock on . If any livery here ever ( and they wont not these ones ) think or actually take something from someone else they would be out of here. PERIOD
If your on a yard where thieving is going on and locks are needed , maybe its time you moved to somewhere where you are not in fear of your stuff going missing!!
It might be petty to you .
Your not the one who has had a £100 trunk damaged and defaced!Most yard owners who spend this money on trunks for their liveries (most don't )out of kindness and thought giving these to them to use would trust their liveries enough that they don't go round penny pinching other peoples stuff, so it would not warrant a lock on . If any livery here ever ( and they wont not these ones ) think or actually take something from someone else they would be out of here. PERIOD
If your on a yard where thieving is going on and locks are needed , maybe its time you moved to somewhere where you are not in fear of your stuff going missing!!
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russianhorse
Well-Known Member
Is this the same livery that padlocked her horse i the stable? Seems she has a padlock fetish if so, or is exceptionally paranoid
However, this is a civil matter not criminal. Ideally, the item should be left as she found it i.e. no padlocks or holes. However how long ago did she put it on the boxes? If a while and it was left unchallenged, it would probably be deemed that by not saying anything at the time, you have given her unverbal permission
However, this is a civil matter not criminal. Ideally, the item should be left as she found it i.e. no padlocks or holes. However how long ago did she put it on the boxes? If a while and it was left unchallenged, it would probably be deemed that by not saying anything at the time, you have given her unverbal permission
Marydoll
Well-Known Member
[/FONT]
It might be petty to you .
Most yard owners who spend this money on trunks for their liveries (most don't )out of kindness and thought giving these to them to use would trust their liveries enough that they don't go round penny pinching other peoples stuff, so it would not warrant a lock on . If any livery here ever ( and they wont not these ones ) think or actually take something from someone else they would be out of here. PERIOD
If your on a yard where thieving is going on and locks are needed , maybe its time you moved to somewhere where you are not in fear of your stuff going missing!!
I think this is blown out of all proportion, its a lock on a chest .... Big deal,either ask her to leave the lock intact or repair with woodfiller
i get the feeling that it was done a while ago and the op is being petty with the livery after asking her to move. if stuff was going missing on a yard i was on, id have done the same, but in fairness i would probably have asked first .If these chests are so expensive then mabe they shouldnt be in a place where they can damaged by anyone, person or horse.
As for people, borrowing your kit or stealing, it goes on in many yards which is why people put there stuff into locked boxes, lockers, with many yo not giving a toss as long as theyre getting their money. Sorry op but to me it sounds like youre making it as awkward as arse for a livery youve asked to leave.
Capriole
Well-Known Member
I think you should have a word with your liveries or put up a sign saying something along the lines of no DIY drilling/alterations to take place to anything without prior permission, if its bothering you. That way everyone knows where they stand in future.
Stinkbomb
Well-Known Member
I see this the same as erecting a tie ring or feed bucket ot the wall of a stable, then taking it down.I have had horses over 25 years and have NEVER had to ask permisson to erect a tie ring etc in a stable. I have never had any propblems either when i have moved. Im sorry but this is really petty.
Littlelegs
Well-Known Member
Agree 100% with marydoll.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
I don't see what this has to do with it a tie ring is a bit different than drilling into a wooden trunk as most stables have all the ties rings already install for tying up or haynets / horses
Op
to stop this happening again why dont you put this into your terms and conditions ??
They have to sign this and agree to no diy done without prior consent and any damages must be paid for or replaced we have the latter in our contract .As meantioned we give them a huge chest freezer and the livery normally comes with a small trunk which they can lock or not as its theirs here no one locks anything
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Achinghips
Well-Known Member
This ^
henryhorn
Well-Known Member
The simple answer is it's far too late to do anything about it now, probably you should have said something at the time.
The woman should have asked your permission to drill holes, here if anyone did that to our plastic stabling for instance we would be upset too.
It's common courtesy to check before drilling holes in someone else's property, whether it be stable/wall or storage box.
I'd just be glad this person is going if you don't get on, far better to have one less livery and a peaceful yard...
The woman should have asked your permission to drill holes, here if anyone did that to our plastic stabling for instance we would be upset too.
It's common courtesy to check before drilling holes in someone else's property, whether it be stable/wall or storage box.
I'd just be glad this person is going if you don't get on, far better to have one less livery and a peaceful yard...
charlie76
Well-Known Member
Gosh, I'm glad I run my yard with a more relaxed attitude! Our liveries are given area to put their tack feed, hay and some equipment. Should they wish to have a storage trunk they purchase their own and have them outside the stable. If they leave they tack them with them. As for criminal damage!?! If that's the case I ought to call the police for every liveries who has put name plates on the door, put up extra tie rings, added tool hooks, water bucket holders, hay bars, etc- all of these leave holes when removed! My suggestion would be to call the police, see what they have to say and I think ypy would get your answer!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Without lawful excuse that's the thing might a defendant be able to argue that protecting property in a storage box given for that reason was a lawful excuse.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
PS this thread has reminded me how glad I am that OH and I broke the bank when young and bought a place where the horses are at home and none of this sort of thing can happen
All you YO's and liverys rubbing along together I salute you.
All you YO's and liverys rubbing along together I salute you.
eventer28
Well-Known Member
Keep the locks on and ask her for the keys. The next livery will be very pleased to have a lockable box, compared to just a box.
fatpiggy
Well-Known Member
[/FONT]
It might be petty to you .
Most yard owners who spend this money on trunks for their liveries (most don't )out of kindness and thought giving these to them to use would trust their liveries enough that they don't go round penny pinching other peoples stuff, so it would not warrant a lock on . If any livery here ever ( and they wont not these ones ) think or actually take something from someone else they would be out of here. PERIOD
If your on a yard where thieving is going on and locks are needed , maybe its time you moved to somewhere where you are not in fear of your stuff going missing!!
I've never known a yard yet that didn't suffer from people "borrowing" other peoples' stuff TBH. And even if you were lucky enough to find one, who is to say other people won't come thieving during the night, or when there is no-one around. Many thieves literally take anything and everything including manky old numnahs, lead ropes with knots in - anything. The only thing I leave outside my stable is my muck skep.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
The ONLY livery who took anything ( the key when she left ) left the yard. NO 1 here ever steals or borrows without asking. period .!!!
I am lucky to find one ( I own one )
We will not tolerate any one stealing or borrowing without asking.
The type of liveries we have I know they wouldnt even contemplate it .
Touch wood we have been here since 1996 and have never had anyone come in during the night,
Our house is withing the courtyard horses cant snort - winny without us or the dog hearing .
The way our yard is situated there is 1 drive and 2 yards share so either we see anyone enter or the yard which faces the drive see any 1 coming down.
casing my yard or the neighbours is hard as there is always someone and one or other yard .
Thats not to say we haven't had suspicious vehicles come down before the yard next door was built , but as soon as our sensor lights come on the dog is at the gate and so are we.
lachlanandmarcus
Well-Known Member
Theres a difference between being a thoughtless and discourteous, by not asking first, to do something which in reality she may have thought was actually of benefit (locking container better than non locking being a reasonable view to take) and 'criminal damage'.
Dont give liveries nice things which you dont want them to use in the way that liveries do, some wear and tear, maybe locking stuff up which involves padlock etc.
To try to pursue this as some sort of crime just ends up with the kind of madness that sees people arguing over 2 inches of boundary dispute until they are both bankrupt and lose their health and mind.
When the livery leaves, the hasps should stay (so no holes) and if they want to take padlock and key then thats their property and they can but the hasp cannot be taken without damaging/disfiguring the box so that stays.
But I kind of cant believe that this is really a big deal? Safety, like locking horse into stable, thats a big deal. Dangerous behaviour like smoking in the hay barn, that too.
But not this.....
Dont give liveries nice things which you dont want them to use in the way that liveries do, some wear and tear, maybe locking stuff up which involves padlock etc.
To try to pursue this as some sort of crime just ends up with the kind of madness that sees people arguing over 2 inches of boundary dispute until they are both bankrupt and lose their health and mind.
When the livery leaves, the hasps should stay (so no holes) and if they want to take padlock and key then thats their property and they can but the hasp cannot be taken without damaging/disfiguring the box so that stays.
But I kind of cant believe that this is really a big deal? Safety, like locking horse into stable, thats a big deal. Dangerous behaviour like smoking in the hay barn, that too.
But not this.....
Honey08
Waffled a lot!
It is interesting to me that the outraged OP hasn't come back on here to comment on any of the advice or say thanks... It kind of hints at a self centred streak, like, if you don't agree with me I can't be bothered.., and I bet there is more to this than is written here. Sorry OP, I was half on your side at first!
fatpiggy
Well-Known Member
Lucky you - the yard I was previously on had their showjumpers tackroom cleaned out - £15K worth of saddles for a start. It was less than 30 feet from their house and they had two large dogs. The place I'm on now has two free roaming rotties who bark furiously and run at any vehicle or person they don't know but they had their 4x4 taken from under their kitchen window while they were yes, in the kitchen and I've met strangers clearly having a good look around on more than one occasion. The neighbours opposite had their unique and antique steam engine stolen from outside the gable end of their house and no-one heard or saw a thing. At both yards I've been on we've had liveries who seemed perfectly ok, until they left and took anything that wasn't nailed down. I'm afraid there isn't a "type" unless you are like my father and think all Muslims are terrorists, all black people are crooks and all gay people should be put up against the nearest wall.
Honey08
Waffled a lot!
I agree that things can be stolen easily whatever security you have. We had all our tack stolen in broad daylight from the tackroom outside our house... Our neighbours had £1500 of oil stolen last week - their tank is outside our house, right outside our bedroom window, I sleep with my window open and I am a seriously light sleeper, the dogs are in the room below with a window looking onto where the oil tank is - none of us heard a thing!
My friend had her yard and house robbed three times. She left a frightening doberman on the yard to deter them after the first two times, they threw meat over the fence and drugged it. They will get in if they want to...
My friend had her yard and house robbed three times. She left a frightening doberman on the yard to deter them after the first two times, they threw meat over the fence and drugged it. They will get in if they want to...
irishdraught
Well-Known Member
There does not have to be intent for criminal damage as recklessness is also included in the definition. eg, football gets kicked through a window during a game of football - not intentional yet reckless to play football close to glass. Also the damage does not have to be permanent, just take effort to make good.
Although it IS criminal damage, I think it would be considerably OTT to approach the Police with this one and, OP, would you really want this person to have a criminal record by wanting to secure items in a wooden box?