Is this cruel?

[Claireg9]

A friend of mine has had a little trouble showjumping her mare. Her mare is 16 y/o now and has done upto fox hunter but not for a while, my friend is basically going upt 3'3" max, but her horse has a habit of rushing pulling her into a fence then knocking it down. In a competition the first two or three fences are ok but then she pulls more and gets away from her, hense she ends up with a few down.
She had a lesson today with a guy who has been taught by the Irish, he got on her hot her hoing perfectly rounded elastic into the fence got the right stride in a relaxed manor whilst still on her hocks and still she leaves her front legs, what to do.
Use a metal pole!?? I said you cant do that its cruel, but the instructor and his mum reckon the top jumpers do it all the time??
Is this not another form of wrapping? Causing the horse pain to make it snap up infront?
And if this is what the top SJ's do i suddenly dont have as much respect for them any more.
feel quite sad about this

anyone know if it's true and if you think its ok to do?
Claire

 

[Rambo]

I personally wouldn't do it but then my horses are very careful anyway and so I don't need to.

Is it really that different to jumping a fixed or solid cross-country fence though ?

Rapping as I understand it involves raising the fence after the horse has taken off. What you describe isn't really rapping though as long as the horse is given a fair chance to jump the fence cleanly.

Can't comment on whether others do it or not as I don't know.

 

[frannieuk]

As the horse is 16 now and had previously been jumping ok it may be an idea to get her checked out - could be arthritis or something perhaps. As regards the metal pole idea, I personally don't like it - imo a heavy wooden pole gives more than a bang and if a horse is knocking poles there's usually a reason, whether is medical or schooling / fitness related or if the horse is just careless. In this case it seems odd to me that the horse was successful at Foxhunter and is now struggling with her technique.

 

[severnmiles]

I don't think its acceptable. I had a lesson a year ago with a Nations Cup riders mother (who trained him) and she whipped my horse with a lunge whip as he jumped so he would jump higher, I could feel his trust in me and jumping completely going. I wasn't brave enough to say anything even though it was my horse.

Three days later we took him to my trainer for a flatwork lesson and he arrived completely dripping in sweat (his a horse who travelled from Italy-Germany-Italy-UK and never ever sweated when travelled). It took along time to get his confidence back.

To me a horse needs to trust you, and if he/she does then he/she will jump off of a cliff for you, whipping a horse or using metal poles does nothing to build trust between the pair of you.

 

[SilverSkye]

Am going to sit on the fence a bit here as when i was doing a bit of showjumping my trainer often used to use scaffolding poles not because they hurt the horse but because the noise of there feet hitting them startles them and teaches them to pick up. Completely diagree with rapping and wrapping poles in barbed wire and using acid and things to burn horses legs so they are raw and when they touch a pole it hurts and completely disagree with smacking a horse with a lunge whip. But looking back maybe using the scaffolding poles was just as bad??
With regards to this horse maybe at 16 it is just getting a bit stiff or needs its saddle or back or teeth checking? As frannie said if it previously jumped foxhunter with no problem there is likely to be something lingering to cause it to start hitting poles.
x

 

[Rambo]

Just because the horse has jumped upto foxhunter doesn't necessarily mean it did so successfully btw. There are lots of horses that jump at that level and leave their legs dangling. Conversely, it is also possible that the horse doesn't start to pick it's feet up until the fences get up a bit

 

[Claireg9]

Well Guy Williams used to own this horse, so something tells me if it was that good it wouldnt be with my friend now, but generally its more because she rushes with my friend, then with the instructor he was making her take off on a nearer stride as she likes to stand off. But either way i tend to think she's 16 now and is probably never going to change the speed of her snap up in front, so work with what you've got, dont try hurting her to make it better. I also think wooden poles are enough of a smack, as to it being the same as a XC fence she wont hit a XC fence... shes not stupid and most are bolder over XC. I just thought it was nasty, but i know i acn be over protective as horses are pets to me not just machines.
The instructor and instructors mum would basically just sell it if it was theres... er well, interesting response though.
BTW she will have a new saddle soon as hers got nicked in the robbery too, so that might help her!

 

[severnmiles]

Silverskye,

I think scaffolding is just as bad, why would you want to startle a horse into picking its feet up? If its startled its scared and if its scared its not going to trust you or enjoy jumping.

 

[rrose]

i think its all bang out of order, would they like to do it.!!

 

[flyingfeet]

Metal poles are not a good idea - you asking to get one in between the legs and end up in total disaster!

Take the horse XC and then make the rider doing each fence as a SJ - i.e not letting her get into a nice cross country rythm so she can run and jump!

Possible that rider trying too hard and getting the horse in a pickle, as this is easily done.

Also possible that if you have been using lightweight plastic pole its making the problem worse. I prefer a good solid 12ft wooden pole - it will break when necessary, but heavy enough for horse to know when its hit it!

 

[Mithras]

I used to have one like this, jumped very flat and tended to have them down in front, if not in front then behind! In the end, after having loads of lessons with different trainers showing no improvement, I gave up and sold her to someone who just wanted to compete at local level and bought my present warmblood. I came to the conclusion that my previous horse just didn't have the brain for it. I perservered for 3 years and since I do this for fun and wasn't enjoying getting 4 faults in British Novice year after year I bought a horse I could have more fun with.

I think having the right mind for jumping is half the battle. You need a careful horse that wants to jump clear over a jump. This one sounds as though it has got into bad habits and would need expert schooling to get out of them. The frustrating thing about my previous horse was that when her mind was on the job she could jump brilliantly, we once won a big open class over 3 feet 6 and the next week it was back to 4 faults in the British Novice!

I would never condone rapping and I am pretty sure it would have done nothing for my previous horse anyway, she would probably have fallen flat on her face or got nervous and jumped even flatter. Perhaps it works with particularly genuine careful horses who become even more careful but most I think it would turn sour. I guess gridwork is the recommended thing to do, particularly bounces with a larger jump at the end. I did grids with my previous horse til I was blue in the face and it made no difference. She was a naturally clumsy horse, she fell with me twice cross country and twice showjumping due to not picking up her legs, which is not nice I can tell you, she also used to stand on your toes all the time, bash you with her head, barge other horses, etc. - it was just the way she was.

Also bear in mind that a lot of pro showjumpers will do a few small classes and then go onto foxhunter quite quickly to see if they'll make the grade. Just because she's jumped up to that level doesnt mean she was comfortable.

 

[pottamus]

Will probably get shot for this...but the mare has jumped well previously, has done her 'job' and is 16 years old....why not give the poor thing a break!!!! There might be something hurting the horse or mentally it might have had enough and can't be bothered anymore...why oh why can't some (and I mean some) people listen to their horses instead of pushing them on to achieve more and more just so the riders feels good and has the glory??? Yes, it does annoy me and sorry to be blunt...no offense mean't in any way at all...just a pet hate of mine.

 

[Sooty]

Just what I was going to say! 16 is a fair age for some horses, like people they all vary. Maybe she would feel more comfortable jumping at a lower height.

 

[eohippus]

All I will say is change your instructor to someone who is a bit more sympathetic to the horse and your problems and not try to quick fix by using the described recommendation. rapping may get her to lift but will not combat your control problems, infact it will probably make it worse. and could injure her or cause an accident in the meantime, is it worth it.
just because he got on a got her to slow up does not mean you will, he will be a much stronger rider, and using force is different to training to respect the aids by the rider, however small they may be.
Rapping is still used today unfortunately but not as commonly. most top and respected sj trainers would never go down that route, it is highly frowned upon by anyone who is respectable as a trainer and the Bsja.
I would never condone it.
regards
Dawn

 

[PapaFrita]

How is smacking a horse in the forelegs going to make her slow down and take things more calmly? I think Sooty and Pottamus are probably right, and mare deserves a break by now.
On the tucking in of forelegs issue, BOF gets me to ride PF closer into the jump to encourage her to tuck them in a bit more. I think she would be absolutely disgusted and rather p:ssed off if I had her rapped.

 

[Claireg9]

Thanks all,
Please remember firstly this is not me, and secondly there not rapping, but suggesting to use a metal pole (In my eyes almost as bad as rapping) I dont think the mares fed up, she is infusiastic and fit, shes well schooled and wins affiliated dressage (not at the highest level, but still its affiliated), XC she adores, and the owner doesnt want to jump huge anymore, like i said max 3'3" really but generally lower, she would just like her better for 3DE really, which tend not to be more than 2'9".
But really my question was would you condone a metal pole? And by your responses it would of been like mine... NO!
If it had of been my pony they were asking to do that on id of shot them down!
Thanks again for all your opinions, and i agree totally with you all
Claire x

 

[GTs]

I think many people presume it is heavy, and weighs a lot, but I would imagine it would be the noise that has the most effect.

 

[Puppy]

I certainly wouldn't do it!

Seeing as the horse is 16, and has clearly done a lot of jumping, it could well be she is developing arthrits and can't tuck up as well as she used to. Was certainly the case with my old boy when he got on a bit - he still loved his jumping but would often roll a poll as his knees weren't so good.

 

[Tia]

I've read this a few times now and still I can't really come up with agreeing that it is cruel......

I am really not sure what is cruel about it? It is a pole which will make a hell of a clatter if the horse bangs it - it is on a SJ wing so will fall if the horse hits it too hard - surely it can't be worse than XC jumps which, if the horse bangs, will hurt a whole lot more, particularly as they do not move!

I think the only thing which would worry me would be if the pole were to be placed at too high a height for the capabilities of the horse and if the horse banged it, it might fly up and injure the horse's undercarriage.

Sorry that I don't agree with the majority in thinking this is "cruel" - but cruel in my mind is a person physically doing something to a horse purely for the infliction of pain or suffering.

PS. Perhaps the reason I think like this is that I have jumped many a metal 5-Bar gate in my time...... are all of us who have done this cruel too?

 

[Rambo]

Very similar to my thinking Tia...

 

[butterfly f]

i think a lot of you guys would be very shocked if you knew half of what goes on in various top rider's yards(no im not naming names) particularly the famous ones that you think can do no wrong. im not condoning anything here but a metal pole is used for the sound. the horse doesnt like the noise so it makes more effort.it doesnt hurt and i fail to see how it is cruel. there are plenty worse things that go on. x

 

[flower]

Just because plenty worse goes on, doesn't make it right does it?

Depends what sort of metal bar - some are thin and twang when the horse hits them, I got the impression in this case it was a thick metal bar being used.

I'd look at why the horse is having fences before resorting to metal bars. If (and it is an if) the horse was successfully jumping Foxhunter classes before it could be that as it's got older it's feeling it's age a bit. How would you like it if you were struggling to jump a certain height as you were getting older and someone just used a thicker, heavier bar that hurt when you hit it?

It could be rider error that is making it have fences down, it could that it likes to be ridden a particular way - I have one horse that is much better if you let her go a bit quicker and stand off her fences and was told by a very successful international rider to let her go that way rather than try to get her closer and quicker in front - she's jumped up to Foxhunter in her own way so perhaps this horse is similar.

Personally, I'd look at why before using metal bars.

 

[severnmiles]

I'm not against it for physical pain, it is the noise they are trying to get an effect from, do you really think its acceptable to 'frighten' the horse into lifting its legs higher? I certainly don't.

I agree, alot worse goes on, one certain 'big' name in the BSJA ties horses to a moving tractor (the steering wheel locked so that it keeps circling) overnight before breaking them, just because of who he/she is doesn't make it right, there are better ways to break horses and better ways to get a better technique over a fence.

 

[Tia]

So if it is the noise that is cruel then surely you must be against jumping plastic poles too? Having jumped them I know they make a real clang when knocked.

Sorry I just can't see that this in any way makes what this trainer is suggesting "cruel". Perhaps uncool and possibly ignorant.......but cruel?? Either that or I have a completely different understanding of the word cruel.

 

[severnmiles]

No, plastic sounds very different to metal.

 

[Tia]

Well I know that - and I don't think anyone could dispute that LOL!!!

You said it was noise that they were using to frighten the horse...not what sort of noise. Why would the noise from hitting a metal pole be any more or less scary than the noise from a plastic one?

 

[4whitesocks]

Not going to come down on either side but just had to say that 'being taught by the Irish' doesn't mean that Irish show jumpers are all into these practices.....Cian O'Connor may well have been accused of rapping but he's not indicative of all Irish riders...

(sorry for being so anal- I know I'm always hyper sensitive about these things but bad practices happen everywhere!)

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

Personally i would want my horse to jump clear because hes capable, because he trusts me and because he wants to - NOT because hes too scared not to!

 

[severnmiles]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally i would want my horse to jump clear because hes capable, because he trusts me and because he wants to - NOT because hes too scared not to!

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!

 

[severnmiles]

Tia, I only have one plastic pole(the other one broke

) and it hardly makes a sound. What poles are you talking about?