Is this cruel?

Surely using strong bits, curb chains and the like are there to make the horse submit to pain. Don't think this works with alot of horses and just makes them fight against it, it's natural to run
away from pain. I think long lining would work well or as someone said earlier bitless.
 
Dee O'Dorant: I am not encircling my horses muzzle in a chain, it is about 5cm long the chain and when you pull on the reigns, pressure is put on as if you were pushing a finger under your own chin; I realise I am only 14 and not as experienced as you, but my instructor gave me this happy mouth curb chain because he'd been in a kimblewick previously and, while he had plunged a lot, I had good brakes. I do not have a link because my instructor gave it to me, thankyou.

I love the idea o a bitless bridle... How much time does it take to change a horse into one? I only get up to ride him 4 or 5 times a week, but I could swap his tack and spend the time schooling in the hols! Thankyou for your advice everyone, it has been so useful! :)
 
I'd try a different instructor, it sounds an awful lot of tack to have on, it sounds like a training issue more than a bitting one. I've ridden a few who were similar, some in slightly more tack, some in less. One actually had a reputation for snapping martingales. And all of them responded to schooling.
 
I prefer less. My mare was storng so went right back to basics, started again with a french link snaffle and now she's a dream. Not saying it was all plain sailing or that she didn't worry me a few times during the process but, well worth it :D
 
Kineton noseband is a good idea, nose pressure often works because it is a different type of pressure, like the curb chain can be. It sounds like you have got quite a few things going on there but some horses do just get excited when jumping and in open spaces. Do you do a lot of fast work with him? He might just be finding it all rather exciting and you might want to show him that not every patch of grass means bomb off!
 
I think you mean a western curb chain. Not quite sure what difference it would make to a snaffle, unless super-tight. Do you notice a difference when you dont use it?
 
justmyluck99 said:
I love the idea o a bitless bridle... How much time does it take to change a horse into one? I only get up to ride him 4 or 5 times a week, but I could swap his tack and spend the time schooling in the hols! Thankyou for your advice everyone, it has been so useful! :)
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Depends on the horse.

Some have great breaks but no steering in a hackamore.

Some work well in a cross under (Dr Cook's) but others hate the poll pressure.

Some like side pulls while others lean into it......

I like cross unders - you can trial a Dr Cook's for 30 days
http://www.bitlessbridle.co.uk/index.php

[YOUTUBE]SkaNr4MRZBc[/YOUTUBE]
 
My medium weight TB would pull like a train on cross country courses and I went through the stronger and stronger bit routine. I ended up in a pelham with a dropped nose band, curb chain and running martingale:eek:. He just got stronger the harder the bit in his mouth so I went back to a hanging cheek french link with a dropped nose band and a Market Harborough martingale. If I was doing Xcountry, I'd swap the French link for a Happy Mouth straight bar three ring and reins on the middle, not the bottom ring. I found he responded to softer mouth piece but more poll pressure. The Market Harborough was still acceptable for jumping.
He got even better when I got the right instructer. I had tried many before her, but she showed me in two lessons more than I had got from all the others put together. I found I had to sit up really straight with my head almost behind my centre of balance and my shoulders open and back, like there was a string attached to the top of my head pulling my spine straight and my chin towards the back of my neck. He would become much lighter in my hands and settle into that lovely rocking horse controlled canter - no pulling.
You definitely need to find the right instructer but you may have to try loads before you click with one. It sounds like you are prepared to try anyway.
Good luck.;)
 
16.2hh ish mare very very strong... ridden n dutch gag with grackle and martingale...strong cantering jumping and even in school,loved the giraffe impression, 7 months down the line she was in a hanging cheek snaffle, caveson noseband and jumps much better, I have loads more control I just think horses who are strong are so use to hands to be strong against, I kinda bit the bullet and rode her in snaffle all the time... I can now do a hunter trial in a snaffle (just wish I could correct my jumping position as easy lol|) also was abe to ride for little while in dr cooks (altho no goo for jumping) so now ithink horse was strong cos I gave her something to pull against !
 
justmyluck99 said:
I don't need any abuse.. just your opinions please. I ride my extremely strong 15.3hh horse in a waterford gag, grackle noseband and running martingale as well as a happy mouth curb chain for jumping or hacking. He goes well and I have just about enough control on hacks/jumping, but would you say it is too much? I am only 14 and, being a girl, not too strong! However, I am sensitive with him in the mouth because he doesn't respond well to jabs and hard pulls and I have been riding for several years now. All opinions welcome, but no abuse; you have not ridden my horse nor seen me ride!
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Good for you for asking.

First of all. ALL horses are stronger than us - ten stones do not stand a chance against half a ton. What we really mean when we say a horse is strong is that he is badly behaved and/or lacks manners. And the answer? SCHOOLING! Get help with his further education - lessons will help him and you or if you are really having trouble get him professionally schooled.

When he learns to be a gentleman you may well find you are able to reduce, or do away with entirely, all the paraphernalia and you'll both be happier in your partnership.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Brilliant idea. :)
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Okay will try and get a video of us schooling today :) advance warning: he is pretty fat, I am the only person riding him and because my school day finishes at 6 and I have Saturday school I can't ride him everyday! He's naturally stocky too :p oh yeah, he also has some problems with taking off on the correct lead, especially left, which does make me wonder about his backing... Hmm, could explain his manners too! :/
 
hi Justmyluck - yes good for you for asking and being interested! Sounds like you do very well to ride 4 or 5 times a week with full on school too. Being a mum, I'd say the key thing is for you to be safe :-)

I am no expert, but the idea of trying out a different instructor sounds a really good one. Not to say your current instructor is not good, but different people can have a different perspective on things, and this might just change something for you. Also if your boy has trouble on one rein, in the past I have found this a symptom of back problems. Strangely, pain can lead to a horse being 'strong' although you might think it would make them not want to go forward at all. Perhaps if you are able to get a horse physiotherapist to come and have a look at least you could rule that out.

Finally, I ride my mare in a rubber pelham, with 2 reins. The beauty of this is that you only have to use the curb rein when you need to. It's not something I would suggest you just go out and get, but again if you have some instruction this or the bitless bridle might be something you could try.

Good luck! :-)
 
My first thought is why a grackle noseband?? Ghastly things. If he is crossing his jaw, then he is telling you he doesn't like what's in his mouth.

You say he went well in a Kimblewick in that you could stop him but the curb action made him plunge? If it was a ported K'wick I'd consider putting him in a Cambridge snaffle (my favourite bit :)) and a not too tight flash or drop noseband to start with in case he does try to open his mouth. This will give him tongue room and I reckon if he's happier in his mouth he'll be less inclined to fight you all the time.

Bitless can be great but it may limit what you can do with him, and may not be safe in this case.

As to the running martingale, I have no problem with them if they are fitted correctly, just make sure it isn't pulling down on the reins (unless his head is in the air) as it could just be another thing he is objecting to as it will act on his mouth if it's fitted too short.
 
justmyluck99 said:
Dee O'Dorant: I am not encircling my horses muzzle in a chain, it is about 5cm long the chain and when you pull on the reigns, pressure is put on as if you were pushing a finger under your own chin; I realise I am only 14 and not as experienced as you, but my instructor gave me this happy mouth curb chain because he'd been in a kimblewick previously and, while he had plunged a lot, I had good brakes. I do not have a link because my instructor gave it to me, thankyou.
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A Waterford is essentially a chain through his mouth, then you have a chain behind his jaw, I'd call that encircling his jaw in chain:eek:

As for it being like someone pushing a finger under your chin, try putting the waterford and curb round your ankle and seeing how very gently you pull before it's really rather unpleasant, then think back to how hard you have pulled in the past to get control.

Things have moved on through this thread though and I strongly agree with changing your instructor.
 
tobiano said:
hi Justmyluck - yes good for you for asking and being interested! Sounds like you do very well to ride 4 or 5 times a week with full on school too. Being a mum, I'd say the key thing is for you to be safe :-)

I am no expert, but the idea of trying out a different instructor sounds a really good one. Not to say your current instructor is not good, but different people can have a different perspective on things, and this might just change something for you. Also if your boy has trouble on one rein, in the past I have found this a symptom of back problems. Strangely, pain can lead to a horse being 'strong' although you might think it would make them not want to go forward at all. Perhaps if you are able to get a horse physiotherapist to come and have a look at least you could rule that out.

Finally, I ride my mare in a rubber pelham, with 2 reins. The beauty of this is that you only have to use the curb rein when you need to. It's not something I would suggest you just go out and get, but again if you have some instruction this or the bitless bridle might be something you could try.

Good luck! :-)
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Thankyou so much! :) He has had bad back problems previously and usually have the Physio out a couple of times a year, last out in December I think and a lot was wrong yet he remained strong after :/ Lots of people have suggested a new trainer too but I currently can't switch, she is good and knows him well and understands him being so strong! I will speak to her again, I've only been using the curb for a few weeks now :) Thankyou for your advice!
 
Dee O'Dorant said:
A Waterford is essentially a chain through his mouth, then you have a chain behind his jaw, I'd call that encircling his jaw in chain:eek:

As for it being like someone pushing a finger under your chin, try putting the waterford and curb round your ankle and seeing how very gently you pull before it's really rather unpleasant, then think back to how hard you have pulled in the past to get control.

Things have moved on through this thread though and I strongly agree with changing your instructor.
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I can't change instructor because of my situation; I would not want to anyway being that she knows my horse so well and does understand his behaviour, however, I will speak to her again about a change of tack! As for encircling his jaw, I understand where you are coming from but the curb chain is about 5 links long with 3cm of cotton straps either side to attach it and, when it is on, I don't have to pull hard at all. Thankyou for your opinion though :)
 
Afraid to say no video since arena was being used, but I did take a photo of the curb chain... However, I left my camera at the yard :/ will try again tomorrow sorry :(
 
I disagree that the Waterford is like a chain through their mouths incidentally. Its all rounded links and is not as an unpleasant bit as it looks and it can be very good for horses with big tongues and small mouths. My mare utterly hates a NS starter bit (which has a lozenge) yet goes well in a kimblewick and a hanging cheek Waterford! I have tried her in every kind of mouth piece and 3 kinds of bitless and she can't stand most of them. The Waterford gives the tongue a lot of freedom and some horses like this.
 
DragonSlayer said:
Bit of a generalisation....my son is 15 and he certainly doesn't 'hang on'.....
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I agree; light/heavy hands are what they are; you don't automatically get better at riding with age! Also, Waterfords aren't as harsh as they're reputed to be, it depends on the rider.
Good luck Justmyluck, hope you get somewhere with your boy:-)
 
When I got my ol cob he was in a 3 ring gag and a flash, head right in and go barely any breaks. I was a 14stone woman and I still couldnt properly stop him - no manners. So I went up I guess to a waterford and the flash........worse brakes, so I went strangely down to a snaffle and no flash.. Now for about a month he took the pee. But, He gradually started to go from behind the vertical to nose out a bit (sounds the opposite of what you want when schooling). Then we tried a drop cheek french link and OMG, he went ace in it. It gave me just enough of a brake when I needed it, but also wasn't holding him in when I wasn't. Fro jumping or fast work we paired it with a drop noseband.

This was not quick though........was over at least a year........but by the end of it he could be in a canter almost on the spot for jumping with just a light hold on the reins.
He would still decide to ****** off with me if he really wanted though.........because my weight was no match for his 550kg and shire x neck!
 
cptrayes said:
A Market Harborough is not a martingale, it's draw reins attached to main reins.

Is that what you mean? Can work well but not legal at BE or BS, surely?
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Not allowed BE. Can be used BS, but only with a snaffle, so wouldn't be legal with hanging cheek. However there are no formal tack checks BS so would depend on how observant judges are! I once pointed out to someone (in a nice way, in case they were new to BS) that they weren't allowed to use a MH with their Dutch gag & got a torrent of abuse. Sadly judges didn't notice when they were in the ring.:mad:
 
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