Is this legal? Found on ebay - barbaric

Yep, while I don't think the general public should be able to go out willy nilly and buy and use them without training, they're legal and used correctly and for the right reason, I have no issue with them.
There have been plenty of threads on the subject.

ETA: They are in heavy use in America but are banned in some Scandinavian countries and there is a lobby to ban them in the UK.
They cannot be used in any sort of competition or sport.
 
Just as you might put a different bit in a horse if it got too strong and you were sensitive and knowledgeable enough to use it correctly, an experienced handler might use a prong collar to check an unruly dog. Dont forget that some GSDs etc have an inch of thick fur around there neck and as the prongs lay flat until the lead is jerked it isnt as severe as it looks. Surely far better to have your large dog under control than have it pull you all around the place? (Imagine a person weighing 7 stone trying to hold a dog, with its low centre of gravity and 4 leg pulling power, weighing 8st)
 
I was going to post pictures of some barbarised dogs, wagging their tails and looking happy as larry in what should only ever be used as a secondary collar, but Photobucket has gone all new and shiny and horribly un-user friendly and I don't want to scroll back two years.

I can't imagine why you'd want or need to use one on a greyhound/lurcher or a JRT or a collie or something, and yes, I have tried one on and used it on myself on the live ring.

Some people will argue that nailing metal onto a horse's foot, putting a long-shanked bit in their mouths, poking them with spurs or hitting them with sticks is also barbaric.
 
Dr Roger Mugford, the canine behaviourist, discussed these in something he had written and related an incident when an enthusiastic owner had actually punctured the dog's windpipe....

If trainers can't train without these gadgets (and don't get me going on e-collars!), they are clearly not very good trainers and would do best to leave the job to someone who is.
 
Yet a choke chain that can crush the windpipe is seen as perfectly acceptable and sold in most pet stores!!
The problem with all these things is the idiots that abuse them, same goes for strong bits and training gadgets.
 
I've never used one myself but I would if it was advised by a trainer I trusted, and they were supervising the integration of the tool with the over all training.

Anything you whack on a dogs' face or neck could cause damage (either immediate or long term) if used incorrectly. CC has already pointed out the parallels with horses, bits and spurs etc., A schooling whip is hardly a lethal weapon when we're giving a light tap to remind a horse to shift its back end in lateral work- but I'm sure we can all agree that anyone who takes a crop to a horses face wants flogging themselves.

Correctly fitted and used, I would much rather see a dog walking calmly on a prong on the dead ring (or even the live, tbh) than choking itself in a flat buckle collar.

Working with behavioural problems with a dog that ways almost as much or more than you do (and enjoys a lower centre of gravity, yay) isn't easy. You can't always stay under threshold, and if the dog flips then you'll be far more interested in trying to stay on your feet than correcting or distracting the dog. Sometimes you need a little extra help getting his/her attention and putting you back in control.

They're not for everyone, or every dog, and they're not a miracle cure for all ills. They're just another tool, that can be correctly or incorrectly used. A bit likes crates... *sits and awaits Crategate 2013* :D
 
I use one of these, for walking my malinois x gs . I posted on here about the trouble i had walking him as he attacked cars as the drove past us. Having tried every suggestion and more i admitted defeat.

There is NO WAY to get his attention off cars at all.It got to the point where he was trying to bite me in his frustration to get to them.

I found a trainer who works with these types of dogs by chance really , he trains on a field just down from me, We started classes with him, and it was him that suggested the collar, we tried the dog in his, while it didn't stop the behavior i finally managed to get focus from him with cars going past, i bought my own and had the trainer help me fit it.

As i said it doesn't stop the behavior but is helping me train him towards what i want. He may forever have to be walked in it, we are currently trying to transition over to the dead ring (so the collar doesn't tighten ) but we will see what happens.

Being a mean cow when we got it i but it on my partner and gave it a good yank ;) he said it was uncomfortable when it tightened but didn't hurt.
 
I used to wonder why the old grey headed dog trainers I met when I was young would keep their mouths firmly shut when there were questions about training methods being discussed. Now I'm old and grey I understand why!;)

I recall a newbie asking one of these old trainers how he stopped his (gun)dog chasing hares and rabbits. The old boy took a suck on his pipe, raised his eyes to the sky, then looked the novice squarely in the eyes and explained, "We train 'em".

Sadly a lost art!:) Hence the need for gadgets.:rolleyes:
 
Prong/pinch collars are not a new gadget! Back in the 60s mt mother took on an adult Gsd who was a horror with other dogs. She consulted a very well known trainer of the day, who won at a very high level , and he suggested the prong , which worked! Many of the old trainers used methods people nowadays would be horrified at, reward training was very rare .
 
MurphysMinder said:
Prong/pinch collars are not a new gadget! Back in the 60s mt mother took on an adult Gsd who was a horror with other dogs. She consulted a very well known trainer of the day, who won at a very high level , and he suggested the prong , which worked! Many of the old trainers used methods people nowadays would be horrified at, reward training was very rare .
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Reward training wasn't rare but it reward rather than bribe and the reward was maybe a word or a touch rather than food.
People got results because they didn't tolerate misconduct and weren't afraid to say no.
 
Dry Rot said:
I don't think anyone said prong collars were new, just unnecessary.
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Except for a minute percent of dogs that would have less enriched lives if the prong collar didn't exist. I do agree that they should not be on general sale -same as some horse bits.
 
Dry Rot, you know the video you like to post of the JRT doing a hide search/hold and bark etc at the US Nationals, do you think Steve and Claudia Romard who owned/trained that dog, who compete all over the world and give seminars all over the USA and Claudia who first competed at the BSP when she was 17 years old, who are very highly thought of in the dogsport world and who have trained and helped hundreds of dogs and their owners, are 'not very good trainers'?
 
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I have never actually seen anyone use them on the other hand Ive seen loads of people riding in gags with grakles and martingales and they didnt look confident experienced riders either. Like lots of aids in experienced hands they are a godsend a bit like prong collars really.
 
My neighbour had one for his huge Mastiff cross as the dog weighed 2 stone more than he did and as he explained to me 'it's a living, thinking animal and if he charges off after something how the hell else am I supposed to stop him?' The dog was impeccably trained and I don't believe he ever had to use it but I don't see a problem with them in the right hands.
 
CaveCanem said:
Dry Rot, you know the video you like to post of the JRT doing a hide search/hold and bark etc at the US Nationals, do you think Steve and Claudia Romard who owned/trained that dog, who compete all over the world and give seminars all over the USA and Claudia who first competed at the BSP when she was 17 years old, who are very highly thought of in the dogsport world and who have trained and helped hundreds of dogs and their owners, are 'not very good trainers'?
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No doubt you will next tell me that the Romards use prong collars and electric collars as routine which would not surprise me.
 
CaveCanem said:
I doubt they used either on the JRT ;)
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These gadgets are largely unnecessary. Cruelty is defined as the affliction of unnecessary suffering. Therefore I consider them to be cruel.

At this point I will be asked what I would do with a powerful dog that pulls.

My answer is that I would not have allowed the fault to arise in the first place so the question is irrelevant!:)

Successful training is mostly about anticipating problems and setting up situations so desirable behaviour is encouraged and undesirable behaviour can be suppressed.;)
 
Worked with dogs since I was knee high, from Great Danes down to little Yorkies.
I would never use one and think they should be banned, I know people who do and IMO its a lazy form of controlling a dog.
No pain should be used to control a dog to walk on a lead, I can hold back a 50k dog with a well placed slip lead.
 
I've watched far too many American animal rescue programmes and seen the damage numpty owners in America do to their dogs,

While I'm sure there are people out there who can use these safely correctly, we have far too many numpty owners over in the UK and for that reason alone I would dread to see these be used on a daily casual basis, leave them to the trainers who 'know' what they are doing
 
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