Is this legal? Found on ebay - barbaric

Dry Rot said:
These gadgets are largely unnecessary. .......
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As are all gadgets, in my opinion. I only occasionally use a lead, and that's generally on busy public roads. I have a deep and abiding loathing of Spiked collars, Electric shock inducing collars, Haltis, and those hideous rat on a rope extending things. I also hate muzzles, but along with the other items about which I've been so disparaging, there may just be justification for corrective work. The danger comes when we rely upon "Aids", for our everyday work.

I suspect, though I'm not certain, that D_R will agree with me now, when I say that training aids don't train dogs. Dogs are trained by the instillation and maintenance of a bond, between the dog and its owner. No training aids ever made will train a dog for you.

Just about every "I don't know what to do" thread, on here, can be squarely laid at the door of the person who hasn't formed a Master/Owner/Whatever bond with their dog.

The obedient and compliant dog, is the happier animal than the dog which rules its human servant.

Alec.
 
Should a waterford or a swales or any other pelham bit be legal? How about a Dr Bristol? *sigh*

They can all be used and abused, much like a nasty looking collar. But so can a leather collar, or any other collar for that matter.
 
Dry Rot said:
These gadgets are largely unnecessary. Cruelty is defined as the affliction of unnecessary suffering. Therefore I consider them to be cruel.
'Largely' :)

At this point I will be asked what I would do with a powerful dog that pulls.
Nope, I don't use one for pulling.

My answer is that I would not have allowed the fault to arise in the first place so the question is irrelevant!:)
As would most good trainers would answer :)

Successful training is mostly about anticipating problems and setting up situations so desirable behaviour is encouraged and undesirable behaviour can be suppressed.;)
I agree.
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Do you use chifneys or stallion chains Dry Rot? Or maybe pelhams? Are they not 'gadgets'?

I personally don't use one for 'controlling' or 'walking a dog on a lead', where I have used it, was as a secondary collar for focus or attention and the initial look from the check is immediately rewarded, negative (the check), positive (the release of pressure), positive (praise/reward), it's a very quick check as opposed to hauling away at a flat collar or restricting air supply in a similar with a slip lead - I use slip leads as well and I fail to see how they are any more 'humane' - they just don't look bad, it's just a bit of rope.

Let's use the pelham/snaffle argument again :p.
To me, it's a refining aid like the bits and other 'gadgets' mentioned.
 
CaveCanem said:
Do you use chifneys or stallion chains Dry Rot? Or maybe pelhams? Are they not 'gadgets'?

I personally don't use one for 'controlling' or 'walking a dog on a lead', where I have used it, was as a secondary collar for focus or attention and the initial look from the check is immediately rewarded, negative (the check), positive (the release of pressure), positive (praise/reward), it's a very quick check as opposed to hauling away at a flat collar or restricting air supply in a similar with a slip lead - I use slip leads as well and I fail to see how they are any more 'humane' - they just don't look bad, it's just a bit of rope.

Let's use the pelham/snaffle argument again :p.
To me, it's a refining aid like the bits and other 'gadgets' mentioned.
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Does your horse walk to heal, without instruction, and without contact?

Does your horse sit, or lie down when told?

If you have a Stud dog, does he need the same professional handling that a Stallion would need?

Does your horse retrieve? Does your horse defend you? Given its freedom, would your horse ***ger off and leave you?

The list goes on, and of course, the relationship which man has with a horse is generally, entirely different, we understand that. Because the relationship is different, so we use different systems and methods, by which we achieve our aims.

To compare the different systems by which we manage horses and dogs, makes little sense, in my opinion. They're different creatures which fulfil different needs, and to offer direct comparisons, is a mistake.

Alec.
 
I_shot_Santa said:
Does your horse walk to heal, without instruction, and without contact?

Does your horse sit, or lie down when told?

If you have a Stud dog, does he need the same professional handling that a Stallion would need?

Does your horse retrieve? Does your horse defend you? Given its freedom, would your horse ***ger off and leave you?

The list goes on, and of course, the relationship which man has with a horse is generally, entirely different, we understand that. Because the relationship is different, so we use different systems and methods, by which we achieve our aims.

To compare the different systems by which we manage horses and dogs, makes little sense, in my opinion. They're different creatures which fulfil different needs, and to offer direct comparisons, is a mistake.

Alec.
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I don't have a horse ;) but there are those who clicker train them, and teach them to sit and lie down, each to their own :p

I would just think that those who do not like to use gadgets on dogs, would not like to use them on horses, either, but I stand to be corrected :)
 
CaveCanem said:
Do you use chifneys or stallion chains Dry Rot? Or maybe pelhams? Are they not 'gadgets'?

I personally don't use one for 'controlling' or 'walking a dog on a lead', where I have used it, was as a secondary collar for focus or attention and the initial look from the check is immediately rewarded, negative (the check), positive (the release of pressure), positive (praise/reward), it's a very quick check as opposed to hauling away at a flat collar or restricting air supply in a similar with a slip lead - I use slip leads as well and I fail to see how they are any more 'humane' - they just don't look bad, it's just a bit of rope.

Let's use the pelham/snaffle argument again :p.
To me, it's a refining aid like the bits and other 'gadgets' mentioned.
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As usual, Alec has put it far better than I ever could!:)

Here is a picture of my Highland stallion. No, I've never used a chiffney, nor a stallion chain on him, and I don't think I own a Pelham.;) He is regularly led around by an eight year old.

DSC_0655.jpg
 
Dry Rot said:
My answer is that I would not have allowed the fault to arise in the first place so the question is irrelevant!:)
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But what if you get the dog from a rescue, or from someone else? what if the damage is already done and you end up with a dog that could be dangerous to itself/others?

Personally, I dont think they should be widely available through ebay, any numpty could get their hands on one. but in the right hands I see nothing wrong with them. I may have to use one in the future, who knows. I never thought I would use an electric collar but when one of our dogs was attacked and then after that tried to attack any dog that came near him, we used one for safety, we had tried everything and yes he was muzzled but very unhappy. we shocked him once on the lowest setting, after that we just used the sound option on the collar and he was a lot better. Okay he still growls at dogs and sometimes tries to go for them but he is a lot happier.
 
It would be a last resort for me, to use one. But it's just a tool in the training toolbox! In an ideal world we would all train our puppies from the moment they came into the house - preventing problems before they came about, and we wouldnt have tools because of our wondeful relationships we've developed with our canine companions who all run free by our sides with no lead.
However that is completely unrealistic, so to sit and pass judgement on those who do use one (properly, mind you!) just seems, cant think of the word.....! Pointless?!?
 
I have never used one but would if I had a dog that needed one along with a trainer to instruct me on its use.

IMO they seem no worse than a Chifney, and I will happily use a Chifney for my own safety.

I put a choke chain on my mums Ridgeback for her (very) frequent vet trips, she walks with the chain loose to and from the vets and will sit in the waiting room happily enough. But once that consultation room door opens to leave she flys out, regardless of who is holding her or what is in her way. The dog weighs 35kg, I am 5'1 and 4 and a half months preggers, so for my own safety she can deal with wearing one while we work through her 'issues'. I was informed that I was cruel the other week by a woman who has a JR strangling itself on a slip lead!

Some animals need firmer restraints / training aids / a bit of a kick up the arse. I don't understand the need for an argument about it?

P.S Dry Rot - I love your stallion :)
 
Oh right Dry Rot, I could swore I've seen a picture of one of your ponies being ridden (by someone else) in a pelham, so I assume you're OK with other people using them? Anyhoo, matters not, Merry Christmas everyone, from me and my barbarised doggies :p :)
 
And a merry Christmas also from my barbarised horse, who walks to heel without rope or headcollar, has a better standing stay than either of my dogs (haven't quite perfected a sit or a down yet, to be fair) and who has, on all but one occasion, after unseating me come back to fetch me with an air of genuine concern.

The one exception was on the hunting field, leaving me with a very long squelchy walk. :rolleyes:

I will report back on her retrieve; a project for the new year, perhaps (or for the new four-legged addition to the family arriving in January... :D)

Maybe I should swap training methods and apply horse ones to the dogs - perhaps riding them around the countryside in harness - oh, wait...
 
CaveCanem said:
Oh right Dry Rot, I could swore I've seen a picture of one of your ponies being ridden (by someone else) in a pelham, so I assume you're OK with other people using them? Anyhoo, matters not, Merry Christmas everyone, from me and my barbarised doggies :p :)
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You could be right. I leave the showing side to the girls. The one who owned the Pelham has since departed and the current one remarked the other day, when she saw the picture, "What the ******* has she got that on him for!" I think the departed one thought it looked more "professional" as everyone thinks he is a gelding anyway!:eek::rolleyes:

As far as shows are concerned, I'm there to drive and watch the trailer. I haven't seen one of mine in the ring yet!

A Happy Christmas to all who keep it. And to those who don't, remember 'tis the ancient pagan festival of light and from this day forth the days are getting longer. Yippee!!!:D
 
Having only one dog that started pulling as a puppy we went to puppy classes and were shown to place a slip collar just behind the ears if pulling was a problem. I have tried this with excellent results. There must be a pressure point there. No prongs, and once checked the slip would slip, so to speak. Much better, well for me and my dogs anyway.

I had never seen one of these barbed collars before and can only imagine the injuries caused by a heavy handed novice, or heavy handed pro come to think of it. It just seemed a bit excessive to be readily available to buy.

Thank you for all your comments.
 
Dunno about bitting horses, as I don't ride (well not to any standard, anyway!). With dogs though, I've never had a problem with the severity of aids, as a welfare issue, I just see them as needless.

I want the dog to look at me, I want him to focus on what "I" want. I want a compliant and willing companion. I'm the human. I make the decisions. The dog listens and obeys, and when it all comes together, as I think it was M_M who said, "It sometimes only takes a look". How right she was.

There can be that wonderful bond when we look at the dog, the work, trial or whatever, has worked, and well, and we look at each other. A smile and a wag of the tail, and there's that acceptance that we've got things right, both of us. The dog who's in tune with the handler will "know". I can't explain it any better than that, and all those who work or use a dog, will understand.

To reach that euphoric state, we sometimes travel a bumpy road. I can "sort a dog out", as well as most. It's nothing to do wit "Dominance", but "Compliance" and with compliance the dog and I, will become good mates!

I really couldn't care less about the tools or gadgets that others use, except that I do feel that creating a bond is what dog training's about, and I prefer to do it without assistance.

Alec.
 
I_shot_Santa said:
I really couldn't care less about the tools or gadgets that others use, except that I do feel that creating a bond is what dog training's about, and I prefer to do it without assistance.

Alec.
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I think you're right, that it SHOULD be about creating a bond. HOwever, even you might admit that there *are* times (ie when a dog is rescued perhaps) and requirement for being out on public areas that it might be necessary? I don't think they should be available for just anyone to use ad hoc. But they can have their purpose. Aren't there just some dogs in which that message takes a bit longer to get thru?

Me personally, I prefer to have a breed that's not prone to useing their body weight against me, a dog that WANTS to please and WANTS to work in cooperation (just like I don't want a big strong horse that wants to pull me about the countryside like it's a freight train). But there are some folk who do get these big dogs and perhaps need a little help, maybe with professional supervision.
 
spiky_zps69c1a8a9.jpg



I_shot_Santa said:
I want the dog to look at me, I want him to focus on what "I" want.
The dog listens and obeys, and when it all comes together, as I think it was M_M who said, "It sometimes only takes a look". How right she was.

There can be that wonderful bond when we look at the dog, the work, trial or whatever, has worked, and well, and we look at each other. A smile and a wag of the tail, and there's that acceptance that we've got things right, both of us. The dog who's in tune with the handler will "know". I can't explain it any better than that, and all those who work or use a dog, will understand.
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I like to think the photo above displays what you're talking about. He just happens to be wearing an extra collar, which is not being deployed :)
 
Hmm, I really need to get to some training classes with my dog, by the end of a run is he good on the lead (although what will I do when he gets fitter :eek: )......
 
Saw one of these on a massive Doberman , walking his owner... Huge in Birmingham and not a doggy person.... Defo for protection. Horrible!
 
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