Is this normal? PTS question?

[indie999]

Ok 23 year old that we know of (retired) no recorded DOB we think a lot older. Arthritis diagnosed x ray 7 years ago and ridden until last year. Buted x1 a day since end 2011 after vet visit(who wanted to take him for tests xray..I refused due to age etc) and farrier having trouble with the legs etc and trimming(last time 3 butes to get this done). Couple weeks ago I have very stiff horse in hind , depressed so increased 2 bute a day since which didnt do a lot but horse looks picture of health otherwise. Spoke to vet nurse about options PTS and decided injection(plus lots of advice from other experienced horsey people who told me recently horse is knackered). Yesterday morning horse is clearly uncomfortable on toe and I can hear clicking from about 50yds away ...so decide to take the decision of kindness and PTS.Clicking for years etc,,,this hasnt suddenly come on.

So is it normal for the vet to ask when he was last seen, Dec 2011 by him, that he will not put down healthy horse, will only do on welfare. OK fine perhaps thats the rules today.

Get to horse and I get interrogated if horse can get up still after lying down and I havent seen him lying down in years plus I didnt want to get to that stage and would rather have him pts whilst he is still up. Informed him I dont agree with people LOVE animals when clearly they are unwell etc and that I dont want to keep him alive for my own comfort and am being realistic he has deteriorated and is getting worse. Every day I dont know what I am going to find and I was on a yo yo. I was quite shocked at having to justify PTS and then the vet declared he was indeed lame and if it was his he would nt do it but....I had him PTS by injection but am cross at the vets attitude, I needed sympathy and was not expecting this instead was expecting" it is the kindest thing to do he isnt going to get better etc". I have asked everyone who knows my horse to look to see if I am making right (yes)but Is this Normal these days??? I even wondered if they just want to make more money out of ridiculous tests. Please comment honestly as its niggling me. I nearly told him to go and I would get someone else out? Perhaps I should? Do people pay for tons of treatments to no avail. Can understand it for a youngster etc but not for such an oldie who was my bestest friend definitely, I am gutted but feel it was right for him.

 

[FfionWinnie]

The vet was wrong end of.

 

[Janah]

You know your own horse and you were doing your best for him.

Your horse, your decision!

Vet wrong in my opinion.

 

[AmyMay]

Of course, a vet can refuse to put a horse down if they feel there is no reason on health grounds to do so. And yes, you will have to justify it to them if it is not emergency euthanasia

I think your vet was doing his job, asking you relevant questions on the condition of the horse before putting it down.

I was in this position a number of years ago with a horse I had. I phoned the vet and made an appointment to discuss the horses future. Vet came, we chatted - agreed that it was not the wrong thing to put the horse down, and horse was dispatched a week later.

If you didn't want a vet questioning your decision all you had to do was ring the hunt.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Oh so sorry for you - vet was wrong. You were not asking for the horse to be pts by BEVA guidelines for insurance etc. An aged horse in discomfort - it was a kind decision and your vet surprises me.
Maybe one question at the start would have sufficed, but to interrogate - no sorry!!

 

[indie999]

I forgot to add this was yesterday. My lovely old boy I am gutted, hoping the blubbering will stop soon. Mega headache last night post PTs. Its just niggling me his attitude. I may mention it when I ring to pay as I normally have found the other vets to be brilliant.

 

[Littlelegs]

I'm so sorry for your loss & even sadder that the vet appears to be an unsympathetic ****. In your shoes, I'd do exactly the same. If/when my oldie gets arthritis like that, she too will go before she gets to a miserable stage. Imo you did the best & most selfless thing, putting the horses welfare over your own needs.
I've not had it with a horse, but in my teens my elderly terrier was riddled with cancer. The vet wanted to keep her in for scans etc despite it being terminal & best case scenario a few weeks on painkillers. When I refused & said I would bring her back that night to pts while she was still her happy active self, I got a load of bs about 'if I really loved her' & after walking out a phone call about how she deserved treatment. There being more options with small animals I took her elsewhere. I think some vets may well know the medical stuff, but not always have the animals welfare as a priority. It's not a common attitude, its just unfortunate that you had to meet that type at such a difficult time.

 

[Wagtail]

Vet has to ask these questions to determine if the horse has fulfilled beva guidelines for being put to sleep. If you wanted to claim on insurance he would need to answer this.

 

[maisie06]

I had a similar situation - I changed practices, got a sensible vet who had no qualms and fully agreed, still with that practice now. At the end of the day in this recession I actually have no problem with any horse being put down if an owner is unable to sell o rehome and I know the vets and kennels have done a few already. I expect your vet was disappointed not to make more ££££'s out of treating your horse!

 

[flyingfeet]

Actually I think the vet was asking standard BEVA questions - in case there was any chance of you claiming on insurance (the getting up and down query)

However to say they wouldn't have him PTS was unkind

We just had our vet out to look at an old boy and he went through the same questions, but as he wasn't looking great told us the opposite and not to wait too long, but he couldn't be PTS under insurable BEVA guidelines as not suffering.

However for the actual PTS, its the huntsman every time. This old fellow's last memory is going to be crunching an apple at home. Not being injected and being messed with by the vet.

Not looking forward to this obviously

 

[MurphysMinder]

Presumably other vets in the practice had seen your horse recently if he was on daily bute, so I do think this one could have been more understanding. I had my old mare pts a few years ago, she was beginning to deteriorate with arthritis and like you I didn't want her to get to the stage where she couldn't get up. I spoke to the vet and told him he would get a call in the next week or so asking him to pts and I didn't want him to try and talk me out of it. He agreed and when I made the call he came out later that day and was lovely with her and me.
Sorry for your loss, I think you absolutely made the right decision.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I can understand why you felt upset by the vet's questioning at a time when you were very sensitive. You knew your horse, he was much loved and your request was made for his benefit.
However,I'm always surprised by the attitude on the forum of posters frequently advising unwanted healthy horses to be PTS.
Vets are human and do find it distressing to end an animals life, particularly if it is in good health. I'm not sure that a vet has a duty to PTS a healthy horse. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I would have thought it was a personal decision based on his own ethics. So, I don't agree that he was wrong, but unfortunately came across as critical at a time when you needed someone to say that you were doing the best for your horse, as I'm sure you were.

 

[limestonelil]

Sending hugs your way. You made the right decision on behalf of your horse, and I think that the vet could have shown you more understanding at a very difficult time. Even when you know it's time for PTS, it is hard enough to say goodbye, without someone else seeming judgemental and critical of your (correct) decision.

Hugs and sunshine, and happy memories to you.

 

[Feathered]

I'm shocked. Can't believe they would put you through that.

Surely they know the horses history whether it's the same vet you've dealt with before or not, it's the same practise.

I had my old girl PTS due to arthritis, when OH made the call to the vets (I couldn't do it) they were very understanding just booked us in no questions, the girls who came out had never seen her before themselves but they never even asked me to see her move, I assumed because they've read her history and are aware of the situation. They were very understanding, that we love her and that is why we're not waiting until she's so bad she's down and she can't get up, they agreed we were doing the right thing, letting her go with dignity.

So very very sorry for you that you've had to have such a hard time made even harder. I'd be moving practises in your situation I think.

Hugs. Xxx

 

[Crumpet]

I'm sorry that you've lost a friend, it takes a lot of soul searching to make this decision when your horse is slowly deteriorating. Its completely different when its an emergency and plain to see what has to be done.
I'm sure the vet is probably trying to legally cover all possibilities and outcomes, though it's not at all helpful when, as an owner, you are stricken with grief and guilt. Ultimately you did what was right for your oldie, the vet would not have pts if it wasn't needed, the vet was giving you the choice to change your mind and try other options, obviously pts was the correct choice when the situation was assessed.
As others have said too many vets see people who are out for the £'s on insurance and they have a duty to question this.
I really do feel for you and have been in this situation myself. You did the humane thing.

 

[scarymare]

You have my sympathies.

Vet totally in the wrong. I have never had to PTS but am doing so to my aged broody on Friday. She is sound, fit but cribs so much she's pretty thin. She hates the winter and colics on Hay not grass and as we get so much snow she colics alot.

I phoned my vet and asked whether I had to justify my reasons to him. He replied that no, I only need to justify them to myself.

Suggest you change your vet.

 

[AmyMay]

Vet totally in the wrong.

Can you explain why exactly the vet was wrong??

 

[Patterdale]

Shocked at vets attitude.

Having aged arthritic horses PTS just before winter is neither rare, new, or cruel.

I would question the way the vet made you feel with the practice.

So sorry you had to go through it like that.

 

[scarymare]

You have my sympathies.

Vet totally in the wrong. I have never had to PTS but am doing so to my aged broody on Friday. She is sound, fit but cribs so much she's pretty thin. She hates the winter and colics on Hay not grass and as we get so much snow she colics alot.

I phoned my vet and asked whether I had to justify my reasons to him. He replied that no, I only need to justify them to myself.

Suggest you change your vet.

Meant to say that I have NEVER called a vet to this mare so they don't even have records of her.

 

[AshTay]

I'm so sorry you had such an unsympathetic vet When I was making arrangements for my old boy to be PTS, my YO (who actually made the arrangments for me, bless her) advised me to have a certain vet as she knew from experience that her "bedside manner" in those situations was impeccable.

And it was. When she arrived, she hadn't seen him for some time and commented on how well he looked (despite still being clearly lame on a very high dose of danilon) and reassured me that I was doing the right thing at the right time. I've seen horses who were in a worse state than mine still being kept going and I always said that none of my horses would be allowed to go that far downhill.

Insurance was never mentioned. I knew I wouldn't be able to claim without allowing the vets to try more treatments which we would both know wouldn't have worked.

Try not to dwell on the details of what the vet said (no wonder the horse was eyeing him suspiciously!!!). No, that's not normal, you were unlucky. End of.

 

[AshTay]

Can you explain why exactly the vet was wrong??

Because in this case, he made an already difficult situation harder for someone without good cause. Technically he might have done nothing wrong asking the questions he did but he also gave his personal opinion which wasn't asked for and which was unprofessional.

 

[scarymare]

Can you explain why exactly the vet was wrong??

Yes, she owns the horse, she has taken the responsible decision to have it PTS for whatever reason (in this case unsoundness). Why was he right do you think? Would you have to go through this to slaughter your pet pig at Xmas do you think?

Poor her, totally lack of awareness by vet. I've seen 3 year olds who have never been given a chance go for meat at sales. IE HEALTHY HORSES PTS. So if this is legal what is your issue?

Gah,

 

[AmyMay]

Ok, so those of you who think the vet did nothing wrong, think it's ok for vets to rock up and put a horse down - no questions asked??

 

[AshTay]

Ok, so those of you who think the vet did nothing wrong, think it's ok for vets to rock up and put a horse down - no questions asked??

I see your point but that's not the case is it - the horse had a diagnosis of arthritis from x rays so was on their system. The vet would have seen this. And it was an older horse. It's not like the call was out of the blue to a fighting fit 8 year old.

 

[SnowPhony]

Vet asking questions to establish its the right thing....fine. Telling you he wouldn't do it if horse was his is totally wrong.

When we had our sick pup pts, vet gave us the prognosis of treatment, explained what options we had other that pts but made it clear he wasn't going to try and persuade us either way. Once pup was pts he told us he thought we'd done the right thing which was a nice touch. Having an animal pts is hard enough without vets making owners feel bad.

 

[Maesfen]

Change your vet. If a vet can't see when an old horse has had enough then they want shooting themselves.
I'm sorry for your loss and that you had to go through that; no vet has the right to interrogate you as to the reasons why, leastwhile when the reason can be so easily seen without examination. Some vets think they're God and they need putting down a peg or two, this one sounds like a likely candidate.

 

[Feathered]

It wasn't 'no questions asked' they already know the animal, they've x-rayed it, it's on bute daily so they must have prescribed it.

They know it's old and arthritic, what more do they need to know!?

 

[Maesfen]

Ok, so those of you who think the vet did nothing wrong, think it's ok for vets to rock up and put a horse down - no questions asked??

As long as the horse is yours/you have full responsibility for it with permission from owner, absolutely.
They are not there to play God, they are there to do you a service, nothing else and your own reasons should not be questioned other than to ask if you're sure (if it looks a healthy specimen) and they haven't had prior knowledge of it as a patient.

 

[scarymare]

Ok, so those of you who think the vet did nothing wrong, think it's ok for vets to rock up and put a horse down - no questions asked??

hmmm, clever question Amymay. Don't suppose the hunt kennels ask any questions. It costs a fair amount for PTS and collection/disposal. What's the alternative? When they are shooting foals in Ireland, WB youngstock also shot for temprement abroad (and here I believe) it would seem to me to be reasonable that if a client has asked for PTS then yes, it should be done without any more than a cursory question. You go to sales and you see what I see. If I were a vet, I'd probably far rather PTS one of the said 3 year olds than see it go many miles in cramped conditions in the knackers van. Rambling so getting off the fence I think that yes, it is fine.

 

[AmyMay]

hmmm, clever question Amymay. Don't suppose the hunt kennels ask any questions. It costs a fair amount for PTS and collection/disposal. What's the alternative? When they are shooting foals in Ireland, WB youngstock also shot for temprement abroad (and here I believe) it would seem to me to be reasonable that if a client has asked for PTS then yes, it should be done without any more than a cursory question. You go to sales and you see what I see. If I were a vet, I'd probably far rather PTS one of the said 3 year olds than see it go many miles in cramped conditions in the knackers van. Rambling so getting off the fence I think that yes, it is fine.

It's not really a clever question - it was meant quite genuinely, as I seem to be so out of kilter with everyone else.

I'd be concerned if a vet didn't want to have some sort of discussion with the owner prior to pts to be honest. And I'm surprised that so many on here think the vet in the wrong. But to be clear I would support any owner having their horse put down for any reason - but that's not the issue here. The issue is the vet asking the OP questions. And I see nothing wrong in that. I see it as part of their job. If an owner doesn't want that - use the hunt.

I've always used the hunt to put my horses down - and as you say, no questions asked.

As for the rest, well that's a whole different discussion.