Is this normal?

I would change vets immediately if they seriously recommended a behaviouralist for a 12 week old puppy who is showing standard stress symptoms after a hugely traumatic change in lifestyle.

I have tried to be understanding of your situation, and I understand you feel 'attacked' (my word, not yours) by responses to your initial post, but I have concluded that for me the language you use in your posts does not in any way reflect the patience and understanding needed for a puppy, and this puppy in particular.

This puppy is not a "basketcase", this is a normal puppy who has been taken away from it's mother and siblings, made to endure a very traumatic journey (which quite possibily does not comply with EU regulations about such matters) and now is with people who are failing to understand it's basic needs.

I also have wondered why, as someone who doesn't use forums, you have chosen a horse forum to post for the frst time about your new, apparently rather complex puppy problem - there are plenty of dog forums, and breed specific forums/Facebook pages, which would be better placed to give advice.
 
I don't feel attacked Levrier, just weary. The puppy is 10 weeks, not 12. Not standard stress symptoms - not according to 2 vets, 1 veterinary nurse, 1 breeder, 2 behaviourists and countless real life people. The word basket case, was not mine, but was from another, helpful poster, whose words I used back to in reply to her. Gosh, the tedium, the strange unpleasantness, yes, the puppy does comply, though I don't propose to give you more details. What does it matter what forum I use? You seem to be suggesting some suspicious subterfuge. There is no need for such bizarre response and do you really feel an imperative to get a thorough understanding of a complete stranger's problem? Particularly if you appear to have taken agin that stranger.
 
Where did you get the puppy from OP? How did it act when you first met it at the breeders?

Have you spoken to the breeder?

And now you’ve spoken to two behaviourists? Does this include the first one who sounded quite sensible?
 
Paxo said:
I don't feel attacked Levrier, just weary. The puppy is 10 weeks, not 12. Not standard stress symptoms - not according to 2 vets, 1 veterinary nurse, 1 breeder, 2 behaviourists and countless real life people. The word basket case, was not mine, but was from another, helpful poster, whose words I used back to in reply to her. Gosh, the tedium, the strange unpleasantness, yes, the puppy does comply, though I don't propose to give you more details. What does it matter what forum I use? You seem to be suggesting some suspicious subterfuge. There is no need for such bizarre response and do you really feel an imperative to get a thorough understanding of a complete stranger's problem? Particularly if you appear to have taken agin that stranger.
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My response is far from bizarre, it is formed from seeing many similar posts to your original one on this forum over the past 15 years which occasionally have attracted a lot of time and effort from users to give good advice only to find the whole situation is a sham and has never existed. I appreciate you don't use forums so you won't be familiar with that concept.

Additionally, it is impossible to answer any poster's questions without having a thorough understanding of the problem - it can often be the case that other important details are only mentioned in later posts in response to questions that are asked. I am now wondering why you are asking advice and guidance from total strangers on an online forum when you appear to have a clear picture from "2 vets, 1 veterinary nurse, 1 breeder, 2 behaviourists and countless real life people"..... but doubtless you will suggest that is bizarre too. I have huge sympathy for that poor puppy, and I hope you can give her the help she needs.
 
On the forum note- if you google a question about a dog the horse & hound past posts often come up near the top...

I guess it is hard for us to get the level of upset from the puppy when it is just your description. Some puppies are just harder and more sensitive. My friend got two from same litter within a few months. One was with them from 8 weeks (they have had numerous dogs over the years, experiences with puppy stage) and one was a few months later when it was returned to breeder. The return had been crates long hours and had no boundaries or toilet training. But now over a year later he is the easier dog. The girl is neurotic, doesn’t like any strangers, plants on walks, barks lots..... I’m just trying to illustrate that some dogs personalities are just harder, regardless of training or breeding.

Some vets are great, but plenty don’t have much knowledge on dog behaviour and what would be considered no longer normal. Behaviourists also have as far as I know, no exact governing body for standards of qualification. So just tread carefully.

Hopefully letting them into the bedroom (and husband off the kitchen floor!) will give you some rest. Patience is key.
 
Paxo said:
Thanks for helpful responses. But good lord, I wasn't expecting the vitriol and snipes, I don't use forums. Perhaps people are right and we're expecting too much. However, something feels not right. My husband has been sleeping on the floor right next to her for over 2 weeks and she wakes and cries for long periods of time throughout the night even though he is with her. She eats not quite one meal of 3 despite having exactly the same food as at the breeder. Won't touch the other two. We are seriously worried. My husband works from home, I don't work, someone is here all the time.
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She’s in turmoil. Some pups can deal with weaning & subsequent new owners, some find it more traumatic. Try introducing new food - raw mince, eggs etc over several days to try and pick her appetite up. I’m assuming all worming is up to date? Get into a routine with her. At 10 weeks I would be feeding four times a day, taking her straight out for pee & poo after every meal & because she’s anxious, every hour as well. Playtime with a variety of toys for short periods throughout the day also. Routine, not training is what is needed🙂
 
Blazingsaddles said:
Also, I was quite regimental with all my pups. Set times for meals, relieving themselves, playtimes & nap times. If she won’t sleep in her bed, wait until she is truly out of it (wherever that may be!) & then put her in bed.
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IME dogs like routine and will soon pick up on one, even if it happened accidentally on the owner's part. Routine helps pups feel secure.
 
That's quite a range of opinions in a fortnight, but it would concern me if not only all of those people had discounted crying, travel sickness/drooling, anxious barking, spontaneous/indoor toileting, food avoidance etc as being standard stress symptoms (they are) but were also unable to offer any alternatives to what is going on instead.
 
CorvusCorax said:
That's quite a range of opinions in a fortnight, but it would concern me if not only all of those people had discounted crying, travel sickness/drooling, anxious barking, spontaneous/indoor toileting, food avoidance etc as being standard stress symptoms (they are) but were also unable to offer any alternatives to what is going on instead.
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I am beginning to doubt the veracity of this account, tbh.
 
I'm most confused. What on earth have I said that is unbelievable? We got a puppy, it seems to have a lot of anxiety. I'm worried that this high level of anxiety will translate into aggression or fearfulness when she is an adult dog. I've spent the past week speaking to and seeing various professionals who have described her behaviour as 'Extreme', 'unusual', 'emotional', 'not mentally robust'. I'm really worried and exhausted and don't know what to do for the best. I feel like I've stumbled into a strange bunch of conspiracy theorists. What do you want - scan of puppy pack, scan of bank account showing money going out, photo of me looking worried and sad holding the puppy, video of puppy salivating and looking distressed? And more to the point, if you don't believe me, which I find incredible (maybe this is a forum thing) - but really why would I make this up? then why on earth are you wasting your time responding? It is a very very stressful time and I don't want to have to sift through such inexplicable maliciousness to find the helpful posts. Many thanks to the helpful people, I"m outta here.
 
I don't know anything about puppy blues but what I do know is that you have a very young puppy, a baby. She has been removed from her family and the security of familiar surroundings and endured a lengthy journey to her new home. This is very scary and unsettling and she will no doubt be traumatised by the experience.

She now needs to feel safe and secure in her new home.

What proportion of her time in the house does she spend in the utility room behind a baby gate, and how much time is spent with her new family? She needs physical comfort, reassurance and support.

Puppies tend to wee a lot, they don't have big bladders and have not developed the control to hold on to urine (or faeces) the way an adult dog can. Often they can have a wee outside and 20 minutes later are having a piddle on the carpet. You need to be ready for that and scoop her up and take her outside or quickly interrupt if you see her starting to squat and usher her outside. It is hard work but this stage does not last forever.

What she does not need is an over-anxious, stressy owner - she will be picking up on your vibes. She needs calm and consistent handling. She needs comfort and reassurance from you. Think of her as the baby she is.
 
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Pearlsasinger said:
Why would someone get a new puppy and then within 14 days, take it to see at least 6 different professionals because they were worried about it doing normal puppy behaviours?
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it doesn't make much sense. Ours was pretty chaotic but it was simply a puppy and you expect it to start with. It would be interesting to know if OP visited the bitch at home to see what was normal and if any of the other pups are having problems. If not then perhaps she and her family are just coming across as so stressed the pup doesn't know if it is coming or going.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Why would someone get a new puppy and then within 14 days, take it to see at least 6 different professionals because they were worried about it doing normal puppy behaviours?
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If this is a genuine poster and thread, which I have already expressed doubts about and the more (or less) OP writes the more I suspect this to be the case.

However if it is a genuine thread then I suspect the poor pup's neurotic, inexperienced, and highly stressed owners running around like headless chickens are the cause of the puppy's distress and they need counselling not the poor pup!
 
I don't think there is anything sinister about this lady's posts but I do think she has got herself in a bit of her state.

I don't want to be unkind but I feel she is transferring her fears and anxieties to the puppy and if she doesn't get a grip she will create the anxious, fearful, insecure dog she is trying to avoid.

pippixox said:
Some vets are great, but plenty don’t have much knowledge on dog behaviour and what would be considered no longer normal. Behaviourists also have as far as I know, no exact governing body for standards of qualification. So just tread carefully.
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I totally agree Pippixox.

The lady needs reassurance and sound advice and I think it is unhelpful of these "experts" to label one so young. Are they basing their assessment on just the owner's description? The terms used to describe the puppy "'Extreme', 'unusual', 'emotional', 'not mentally robust'" I feel are ridiculous and alarmist and heighten the owner's already anxious state.

My feeling is that this is the wrong environment for a sensitive puppy and perhaps a mature, steady dog might be a better option for the family.

If you are still reading, OP, could I just say that socialisation is important but it needs to be the right kind of socialisation and at a level that each individual pup can handle. Subjecting this pup to experiences that she is unable to cope with will have a long term damaging effect on her well being. One example of this would be holding a young puppy and forcing it to endure attention and touch from strangers/children. The puppy is unable to choose whether it wants this interaction and is unable to take avoiding action, this is even more important with a shy and less confident puppy (or dog).
ETA -I am not referring to robust, confident, take anything in their stride pups.
 
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I know nothing about bouviers but they are collie like in their behaviour I think? So neurotic! I think the troll hunting is a bit ott. We all ask stupid questions sometimes.
When my son was a baby I remember losing it often as I couldn't cope, had no idea what to do and was at the end of my tether. No internet helpers then either.
 
We have a lab who will be 2 in June. Got him at 4 months old from his breeder. The first few months with him were hard, the first two weeks the worst! We took him out every half hour to wee, he’d go and then pee on the carpet ten mins later. It took him a while to grasp house training! He also struggled with car journeys to start with, it just took time. We had to persist with the routine, even though it was very painful at times, and he eventually got it. He also decided he didn’t like the feed he’d been having at his breeders once we got him home, he did eat the food our other lab was having but wouldn’t touch the other stuff.
 
Hello Paxo

There has been some excellent advice given by other posters and I will try not to repeat that but feel my post yesterday may have been a little harsh and did not address your concerns -

Paxo said:
I'm worried that this high level of anxiety will translate into aggression or fearfulness when she is an adult dog. .
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First let me say I am no expert, I am not a behaviourist or vet so please read my thoughts with that in mind.

It is likely that you just have a very stressed puppy who needs time to settle down and take things at her own pace, with lots of reassurance and support from you.

Some puppies/dogs are naturally resilient and others need more consideration - she may be the latter but this does not automatically mean she will become fearful and aggressive though she will need more commitment than the average pup.

Temperament is shaped by both genetics and life experience. It isn't possible to do anything about her genes but you can help shape her temperament. Where possible avoid negative experiences and manage her environment.

From her point of view she has already chalked up at least one bad experience (the long ferry journey in the crate which was stressful and probably made her feel unwell).

There is something called single event learning - a dog has an aversive experience and this leads to a lasting fearful memory - this may be what has happened with the crate. It will take a lot of patience and training to change how she feels about the crate.

What makes things worse for your pup is that this happened in a fear period. Dogs go through 2 fear periods - at approximately 8 to 11 weeks and 6 to 14 months.

Fear and stress cause stress hormones to be released which have a negative impact on the motility of the gut - this can lead to problems with bowel control. Lack of appetite can also be due to stress. The constant need to urinate is probably also related to stress.

There is something called trigger stacking. A dog experiences a stressful event, cortisol (stress hormone) is released. It can take up to 36 hours for cortisol levels to normalise but in the meantime another stressful event occurs and "tops up" the existing cortisol. This means the dog is in a permanently stressed state and if stressful events (triggers) stack up this can take the dog "over threshold" and the dog can no longer cope.

Comforting her will not reinforce fearful behaviour. I am sure you will do your best to ensure that she is not overwhelmed and provide support and protection as she gains experience and confidence.

Dogs are experts at reading our body language. They can pick up the slightest nuance - change in expression or tone of voice. You need to ensure you are exuding calm and confidence to let her know that you have everything under control and that she can rely on you.

CorvusCorax nailed it with this post.

CorvusCorax said:
I think that will be the crux of the matter, and why you guys either have to be robust for her/make a supportive environment, or make the prep to find her a much quieter/lower energy home.
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I hope you will find some of this information helpful. I am only a pet owner but there are a couple of forum members who have said they are behaviourists - one of them may step in and give advice.

If at some point you feel it necessary to seek the advice of a professional behaviourist then please make sure they are APBC registered.

Good luck with your new family member.
 
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Actually I think a behaviourist is a great idea. The owner is struggling. Getting someone in with good positive dog training skills now while puppy is extremely mouldable is an excellent idea - this will give owner tools to deal.
Eg I would not have someone still sleeping beside pup, I would have her nice cosy bed in the crate and pop her in there and leave her to settle, with a nice kong or similar. I would to some extent ignore crying or upset behaviour as they need to learn to settle in their crate and it isn't a magix wand where puppy suddenly loves being closed away - but a necessary step in most cases.
I would be letting her out every 4 hours to the toilet. If you keep sleeping next to her (but not with her) she will just get more confused and upset. I would have a routine, and be prepared to spend a lot of time on lead if necessary) outside ready to rewardany toileting. I would be playing fun positive games.
It is far better to engage with a trainer or behaviourist at home now than at 6 months old when puppy is established in anxious behaviours.
 
SusieT said:
I would not have someone still sleeping beside pup, I would have her nice cosy bed in the crate and pop her in there and leave her to settle, with a nice kong or similar. I would to some extent ignore crying or upset behaviour as they need to learn to settle in their crate and it isn't a magix wand where puppy suddenly loves being closed away - but a necessary step in most cases.
I would be letting her out every 4 hours to the toilet. If you keep sleeping next to her (but not with her) she will just get more confused and upset.
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We are talking about a potentially fearful pup who has a crate phobia. Do you think therefore that it is helpful to enclose her in the crate and leave her in isolation and just ignore any distress? Personally, I don't. I feel this would further traumatise the pup.

Would you make somebody with a fear of heights look down from the top of the Eiffel Tower? Do you think it would help?

There has been good advice about having her in the bedroom initially until she gains confidence, she could have her nice cosy bed in there.
 
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We know someone with a Staffy who developed a crate phobia, because she was kept by her previous owner in a crate for at least 23 hrs out of every 24. She used to give our massive Rottweiler x2 crate a very wide berth but over time, she has grown to realise that our dogs are comfortable in there, she will now go in for a drink and occasionally go and sit with our girls in there.
I really think, that if this pup exists, it needs a home with another calm dog who can show it how to behave.
 
Thanks guys, it is good (and relieving) to have normal and helpful responses. I think we'll be going with a behaviourist and will be careful to find a qualified one. We've now removed and hidden the crate from her view, both the inside one and car one and it has had an almost immediate and positive effect - she slept for quite a few hours last night and only got up at 6. Things are looking up....
 
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