Is this reasonable?

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Abacus

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I am putting my horse out on loan, and a friend has tried him several times, including taking him out to lessons.

Our yard is probably 10 miles from a known strangles outbreak.

Today my YO said that she has decided to lock down the yard, not allowing any horses in or out. Well, they can go out but not come back. They can obviously go hacking but not to other yards and competition centres.

This rather scuppers our plans, as my friend is going to take my horse xc and to other lessons this week. It's important this happens this week as it's the school holiday (it's actually her daughter who will be loaning and riding him). She obviously knows to be careful about keeping him away from others in a 'public' place. If she takes him out on Tuesday he won't be allowed back on the yard.

Is the YO being reasonable about this?
 
yes very reasonable. In fact I think people are lucky that they hack out. if it was my yard I'd have disinfectant practices in place like during the F&M outbreak. And no horse would be able to leave the premises at all. You are very lucky to have such a responsible YO in my opinion.
 
I would say it's a bit OTT unless the yard with strangles is allowing horses out to compete at similar venues to where you would be going... which I hope would be unlikely.
Could YO seek some advise from his/her vet on how to minimise any risk?
 
Downton Dame said:
yes very reasonable. In fact I think people are lucky that they hack out. if it was my yard I'd have disinfectant practices in place like during the F&M outbreak. And no horse would be able to leave the premises at all. You are very lucky to have such a responsible YO in my opinion.
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Completely agree. It's a bummer for you and your friend, but it's better to be safe than sorry! :(
 
I think it is probably an overreaction to an outbreak 10 miles away, there may be outbreaks nearer at other times that you are unaware of and cannot take precautions against, that said if she has put the rule in place then it must be respected and adhered to so I think it is fair enough to restrict what the person does, keeping away from other horses is not enough if he puts his head down to graze where an infected horse has been that is just as likely to be how it gets picked up and passed on.

I think if the horse is a loan and they have tried several times they should be more than ready to commit by now without taking him to rallies, it is a busy time for PC and however hard you try to keep them apart there is still a high risk of him picking something up if someone turns up with a horse that has been in contact, not everyone is as aware or responsible as they should be.
 
Thanks for your thoughts. Apparently this was on the advice of a vet. Although we spoke to another vet this afternoon who said it is unnecessary.

On the subject of her being ready to commit - she's a good friend and a relatively young girl - I would want her to be completely sure, and I don't mind how many times she has to try him, so this part is not an issue.

Nor is it a general rally and she is not going to PC events - it's xc schooling with one other horse. He would travel in my transport which isn't used for any other horse.
 
I have to say I think your yo is being quite sensible. The confirmed case is 10 miles away which isn't very far, and who knows how many other horses in the area came into contact with the yard/infected horses before the case was confirmed. I wish all yards were as cautious, then we wouldn't be in the epidemic situation we're currently in :(
 
totally un reasonable imo. If no contact is made with other horses, going to field type places, hygiene is carried out - no reason to not go to venues that have no known cases....
 
Downton Dame said:
yes very reasonable. In fact I think people are lucky that they hack out. if it was my yard I'd have disinfectant practices in place like during the F&M outbreak. And no horse would be able to leave the premises at all. You are very lucky to have such a responsible YO in my opinion.
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Its ten miles away, it is spread by contact, not really like F & M,
Its bacterial, does not travel in air currents.
Infection could be spread by vet, and farrier, but if the offending yard is in lockdown it is not likely you would expect to meet their horses at competition.
It is never a good idea to let horses touch each other at any time.
Best thing is to insist that no farrier or vet that that has been at the known infected yard in past ten days does not visit your yard.
 
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I think it's totally reasonable. When there was a strangles outbreak in our area we didn't even hack. 10 miles is not far and you don't have to come in contact with other horses, you only need to come in contact with things they have touched. You can be as hygienic as you like but if others aren't you could suffer.

In particular if the vet advised it, and it's only10 minutes away, I wouldn't question it.
 
Abacus said:
Thanks for your thoughts. Apparently this was on the advice of a vet. Although we spoke to another vet this afternoon who said it is unnecessary.

On the subject of her being ready to commit - she's a good friend and a relatively young girl - I would want her to be completely sure, and I don't mind how many times she has to try him, so this part is not an issue.

Nor is it a general rally and she is not going to PC events - it's xc schooling with one other horse. He would travel in my transport which isn't used for any other horse.
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Your YO should provide isolation facilities and your horse can come and go as long a it had 14 days in quarantine with temp taken twice a day, all else is rubbish.
Yes a vet could have agreed that there would be less risk if no horse left and returned to yard, but that has little to do with a strangles outbreak 10 miles away.
 
I love a thread with lots of different opinions :) I completely respect those that think it's reasonable, sensible and responsible.

Bonkers2 - I disagree that she should provide isolation facilities - the yard just doesn't have isolated stables or enough fields for this to be possible - I wouldn't expect this.

However - personally I think it's somewhat OTT. Knowing quite a bit about the disease, I would not treat it as F&M, nor would I insist all horses have to stay in the yard. Yes, an outbreak 10 miles away isn't going to carry on the wind - and we know that yard has been responsible and very honest locally about their own situation - no horses are going out from there.
But it's not my yard and I do appreciate that she is responsible for her own, and for others.


Hey ho.
 
Clare85 said:
I have to say I think your yo is being quite sensible. The confirmed case is 10 miles away which isn't very far, and who knows how many other horses in the area came into contact with the yard/infected horses before the case was confirmed. I wish all yards were as cautious, then we wouldn't be in the epidemic situation we're currently in :(
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I did not know we were in a strangles epidemic: though the disease is endemic in the UK.
A lot of strangles is spread by dealers bring horses from sales in Ireland, which are transported in close proximity then dispersed to dealers who want rid asap.
Chicken pox is endemic in the UK but I don't thing there is ever a UK wide epidemic.
 
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Abacus said:
I love a thread with lots of different opinions :) I completely respect those that think it's reasonable, sensible and responsible.

Bonkers2 - I disagree that she should provide isolation facilities - the yard just doesn't have isolated stables or enough fields for this to be possible - I wouldn't expect this.

However - personally I think it's somewhat OTT. Knowing quite a bit about the disease, I would not treat it as F&M, nor would I insist all horses have to stay in the yard. Yes, an outbreak 10 miles away isn't going to carry on the wind - and we know that yard has been responsible and very honest locally about their own situation - no horses are going out from there.
But it's not my yard and I do appreciate that she is responsible for her own, and for others.


Hey ho.
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I am arguing that it is hardly a method of disease control, but she can make what rules she likes, it would be reasonable to allow your horse to leave and tell you to isolate it when you return it, else where is it going to go?
She loses your horse, then how is she going to replace it if she has no isolation ........ this is a much greater risk: random horse, random history, if she wants to take vet advice on disease prevention when introducing a new horse, she will find it involves isolation, and blood tests.
She should have isolation facilities , what happens if one horse gets sick with an infectious disease and the vet recommends isolation to prevent its spread?
What happens if a horse needs box rest?
 
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OK - on that point I agree - it is strange that you would allow a completely new horse to come in and mingle with the others on the first day (which she did) but not take a known horse back.

This is complicating the story a little but there's a sub-plot.. I do believe that she might be worried about losing a livery - hence making it difficult for my potential loaner to try my horse. I might be unfair in this but it's possible. She does have spaces that are proving hard to fill.

Actually we have options on where to go. He can go and live with the potential loaner while she tries him (he used to live there anyway) or can just come home (I have a yard of my own). So I could choose to take him, and not come back.
 
It's her yard so I guess you have to respect that. On the other hand we have strangles nearby. Shows/competitions are being cancelled which is understandable. But on the forest, strangles is endemic, stock can carry it and every couple of years or so we get an outbreak. Careful management and if people are sensible the risk of spread can be avoided. However, the current outbreak started at a yard.

I do think there is a lot of fear associated with strangles. I wonder how the death rates compare to colic, laminitis etc.......
 
Honey08 said:
I'd rather be safe than sorry personally. Imagine if your horse did catch strangles - that would scupper the loan too.
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But its not a greater risk than the risk was a week before the confirmed strangles..
I did think about YO's motives and losing her livery.
We bandy about words in a pseudo scientific manner all the time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endemic_(epidemiology)

When the local yard found out that the vet recommended footbath was going to cost them £30 a week, they replaced it with hypochlorite, entirely the wrong product for a foot bath, but cheaper than the proper stuff. Jeyes Fluid would have done the job, but not bleach.
 
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Peregrine Falcon said:
It's her yard so I guess you have to respect that. On the other hand we have strangles nearby. Shows/competitions are being cancelled which is understandable. But on the forest, strangles is endemic, stock can carry it and every couple of years or so we get an outbreak. Careful management and if people are sensible the risk of spread can be avoided. However, the current outbreak started at a yard.

I do think there is a lot of fear associated with strangles. I wonder how the death rates compare to colic, laminitis etc.......
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Colic and laminitis are not infectious diseases, it is irrelevant.

My horse was very ill, this idea that it is minor is like saying flu is a minor illness just because most people do not die of it, but it would not be acceptable to "allow" susceptible people to die just because they are in a minority.

Apart from lockdown, after the event, and far too late, my poor horse suffered terribly and it was all due to the yard keeping quiet
Their idea of isolation was to put up a notice "do not touch this horse". Sick horses were turned out with others Half the horses were infected, though no one died. Direct ecomomic loss maybe £50K , just because they chose not follow either their own procedures, or the terms of their Riding School licence.

There is a fear of the spread of the disease among most responsible horse owners, but there needs to be common sense and scientific control, not random, crazy ideas.
 
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The fear is what causes these losses. People keep quiet because of the stigma attached to it. Of course I am not saying that horses don't die or suffer horribly. One of mine has had strangles, others I know have had it too. I do wish that people would be more honest and responsible.
 
It's all unreasonable until your yard contracts it then the blame goes on the YO for not being strict enough!
 
Bonkers2 said:
What if the horse gets injured, which is far more likely?
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Well yes, obviously that's a risk and you've already decided to take it, so yes I suppose the risk of strangles wouldn't bother you, however it would affect your fellow liveries whereas your horse getting injured wouldn't.
 
Bonkers2 said:
I did not know we were in a strangles epidemic: though the disease is endemic in the UK.
A lot of strangles is spread by dealers bring horses from sales in Ireland, which are transported in close proximity then dispersed to dealers who want rid asap.
Chicken pox is endemic in the UK but I don't thing there is ever a UK wide epidemic.
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Sadly, it is everywhere in the UK at the moment and shows/rallies/events are being cancelled all over the place :(
 
Zero00000 said:
It's all unreasonable until your yard contracts it then the blame goes on the YO for not being strict enough!
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But if a yard provides no isolation / quarantine, then it is very strange that they tell people who leave the yard not to come back but are willing to bring new horses in, it makes no sense from a disease prevention point of view.
 
I would rather have a proactive YO than one that buries their head in the sand.

Lack of provision for some form of isolation boxes for incoming horses esp if YO happy to turn out with herd straight away and seems at odd with YO attitiude re move off yard and you are not allowed back in.

I think you either have to accept YO conditions or continue you as you are and move the horse off the yard - at least you have other options available.
 
It's a bit of an overreaction to an outbreak 10 miles away, but it's up to the YO to make their rules.

I always behave as though everything has strangles anyway, when we're off the yard - don't let horses speak, avoid touching other horses, don't share transport with horses from other yards... as long as people are careful and sensible it minimises risks.
 
I think she is right in effect but she is wrong not to have isolation facilities. She could easily let you go and come back if she had those facilities.

It's her yard though. She can make up whatever random rules she likes. It's not fully unreasonable really but she could make things easier for herself.
 
I wouldn't mind betting that at most horses in the UK are within 10 miles of a horses with an active strangles infection most of the time. I've had it, I know what a bloody pain it is. But also, from talking to vets at both the equine practices covering our area I also know that they knew of several cases that weren't public knowledge (that were doing all the right things other than telling people) and that that is situation normal. That is in top of the horses that have it but no one realises - it was only because we had a new horse ours got tested "just to be sure" as the vet thought it was something else.
Theocrats is right - the way to go is to assume any horse you meet out has strangles & not allow contact/ water sharing. It's what I do now.
 
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I'd just like to say thank you for the logical and sensible responses on both sides. Have spoken to all parties and decided to take him and then move him - because this is in his interests, and in all probability he would go soon anyway. He is not at risk of taking an infection to his new yard, and won't come near any others while xc schooling. So it seems very low risk.
 
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