Is this right?

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welshstar

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My sister took her horse (16hh cleveland bay X thoroughbred) to a small lcoal show yesterday. She went into the novice working hunter and put in a beautiful clear round, one of only two. The judge asked for everyone to come back in, about 10 of them, and they proceeded to walk around for about 10 minutes (no joke!!) they were all then lined up, untacked, trotted up and then had to all walk around again for about another 10 minutes. By this point me and my mum were getting all excited as she had a good chance of doing very well! (considering she didn't put a foot wrong and the other was a tb) Well pulled it first, a small grey (about 15.1) which had faults!!!, second was the other clear, and my sister third. The judge then stopped the look at my sisters horse (during handing out the rosettes) and told her to move to fourth, a horse which got a refusal and demolished a jump was put third!!!!! Afterwards my sisters asked on what she could improve on (to try to find out where she went so wrong!) and the judge said that she did a brilliant jumping round but she didn't like her legs (she has a slight dish and a little pidgeon toed- neither very severe) My sister was a bit upset at this as it had taken a long time for her to get where she was with her schooling, she didn't put a foot wrong and jumped a brilliant round- what more could she do considering it is a local show!!! This sort of stuff in showing really does annoy me as i have also been at the wrong end of a judge that didn't like us- i quite frankly give up!!
 
Working hunter is judged on points so theoretically a horse with a fence down could be placed above one with a clear round if the clear didn't get a good conformation mark. It doesn't sound like that happened here but I know that confuses a lot of people.
 
Thats a bit pants!
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Thats happened to me before in WH, but never had horses who've had a stop above a clear!
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Thats why I don't like showing!
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Showing is judges on - jumping clear, conformation, temprament, how they move under saddle. Unfortunately dishing is not a desirable action and your sisters horse would loose points here. Also if there were any blemishes etc that would drop marks. Well done to her for her clear ound though
 
I know thats it's judged on points but surely confirmation can't be judged that highly compared to jumping. I could understand quite well if they had each done their individual show or at least trotted and cantered around together as a group as they would be plenty of opportunity for points to be dropped or gained but in that class it seemed like jumping and confirmation were the two points sections, 50/50 each. I don't know about that judge but i would much rather go out hunting on a horse which jumped the jumps cleanly and bolding rather than crashing through them or refusing on horse which 'looked pretty and had nice confirmation.'
 
From memory its 60/40 but also judged on style over fences so if for example your sister show jumped the fences she could come out with a lower mark than someone who had a fence down but jumped them working hunter style, as someone before said she will also have lost marks due to the dishing. I obviously didn't see the class but I'm guessing your sister may have fallen foul of this marking system.
 
I agree with you, showing is pants. We went to a local show recently because our last 3 ODEs have been cancelled. Was placed 3rd WH but then the judge told me he wanted to put me first but couldn't place me higher as my horse wasn't carrying enough weight for a WH class, he was too fit looking. I smiled and said thank you. But how daft, surely if the horse is a Working Hunter he should be fit, and not in the usual tubby show condition. But there we go, no more showing for me, it's hard enough reading dressage comments !!
 
I judge some WH classes at very local level & I always try to put clear jumpers above anyone with faults as at local level you would be hard pushed to find horses without conformation faults. Also I think it is very disheartening if a horse or pony does jump clear & gets placed below a more correct horse which has made a complete pigs ear, but at the end of the day, it is down to what the judge likes!!
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I judged a local WHP on Saturday, and used 50 jumping marks (with 15 points off for a stop or pole down), 20 marks way of going (in the jumping), then horses brought back in had 20 marks for conformation and type, and 10 for manners.
Using this points system, I don't see how a horse who wasn't clear could win, even if they were brought back in, the points they lost in the jumping would be far more than the couple of points they might lose for minor blemish etc.
Also, it was only the small pony class that I brought them all back in, the other class for the larger ponies, and the 2 horse classes was clears only back in.
Seems an odd judging system to me.
FIona
 
Why doesn't your sister do SJ or BE - all showing sounds absolutely pants to me (everyone a very long way up their own a***s from what I read on here lol)
 
This is the marking system used by Ponies UK;
Phase 1 - 50 marks jumping, 10 marks style and manners while jumping
Phase 2 - 30 marks conformation and type, 10 marks whilst performing short individual show or judges ride
Total - 100 marks
Penalties
10 penalties - knockdown
15 penalties - 1st refusal
20 penalties - 2nd refusal
Elimination - 3rd refusal
Elimination - fall of horse or rider in either phase.


Please don't knock something just because you don't like it, showing suits a lot of people and most enjoy it. If you don't like it don't do it. No disrespect to the orignal poster here but this really annoys me, showing seems to be looked down upon as a sport, yes there are some dodgy judges out there but this is meant to be fun. OK I'll get off my soapbox now sorry
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My sister does do showjumping and enjoys it more but we really just do the showing stuff for something to do. I do respect the judges decision a lot of the time, when you can see the placings yourself etc and i don't just think thinks should be changed just so 'we can win', but although we don't 'go out to win' it's always nice to feel you are going in with a fighting chance and as we are only doing small local level and not expecting to do county atall surely the judges can be a bit more leniant on confirmation faults. By doing this, she is just making showing less of a fun sport for all and more of classes for the elite with horses that don't have confirmation faults.
 
I agree with Jo, preparing a horse for the show ring takes a lot of work. Not just making them look pretty, they have to be well schooled and behave well.

It is very wrong to say showing people are up their own arses, I could equally say all show jumpers are chavs. A total generalisation.

It is unfortunate that your sister (OP) had a bad experience after perfoming well, but as others have said it is confomration, style etc as well as jumping clear.

Nevermind, there;ll be another day and another judge
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So you'd like to change the rules for locals? I agree the judging should be a little more relaxed but the concept is the same. Also if you had a horse with excellent conformation how would you feel if the judge had placed you lower than one with bad?
Please remember that judges for local shows give up their day mostly free of charge to come and judge you, they are only human, put it down as a bad day and aim to do better next time
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Edited cos I can't read!
 
I know nothing about showing and was commenting on what I know of it (which is the posts I see on here). Apologies if I offended people but it does seem that this branch of equine competition causes more distress than most to the participants so I wonder why people do it.
Incidentally, dressage seems to be the next most distressing which leads one naturally to observe that both involve judges - and judges are human. Just an observation
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Rosiefan - it wasn't just your post I was commenting on but posts in general on here. No offence taken
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I think the trouble is that when people do badly they automatically blame the judge without considering some of the other things that may have marked them down. Obviously conversely when they win that judge is wonderful but several other people then have a problem. Sorry I probably haven't explained that very well but hopefully you know what I mean. Working hunter classes are based on so much more than just jumping a clear round, if you want to do that I agree go and do showjumping. Basically if you feel you have been put down for no reason discuss it with the judge and if you are still not satisfied don't show under that judge again. Vote with your feet and if the judge really is that bad the shows will stop asking them to come. Please also bear in mind that affliated show judges have to attend training days and serve probationary periods so they 'should' know what they are talking about. As I said before though at the end of the day they are only human and everyone makes mistakes
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I have to agree with Jo C. At the end of the day showing is based on one person's opinions. There are guidelines as to how the judges opinion should be formed, but ultimately it's down to that person. I've had days when I've been at the bottom of theline and couldn't understand why and other days when I've been at the top of the line and thought that I didn't really deserve to be there. That's showing, it can be quite frustrating at times but also very enjoyable.
 
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