is this road legal?

Leo Walker

Leo Walker

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I've been looking at carriage extensions for the trailer, like this one:

Ifor-Williams-Carriage-Extension.jpg


Lots of people use them but I am slightly concerned about the nose weight on the towbar. I am only towing one horse in a big trailer, just slightly smaller than a 510, so I can balance the weight out to mitigate but I do think they have a design flaw.

Then I saw this:

649687ed9882f6d0d55f4a8c98a17cb9--turntable-horse-trailers.jpg


It seems a much better design. Is it legal to have another axle and set of wheels?

I've just bought this today:

22279639_10155128044628667_9048138296737070415_n.jpg


Its 6ft something x 5ft and rated for 1300kgs, but I bought it for less than scrap money for the steel.The intention was to totally strip it down and use the steel to build the extension, but having seen the design with the wheels on, I'm wondering about using that sort of design.

I cant find anything on google, but can I have a trailer with 3 axles like that? My OH is going to do his trailer test so will have B + E and we are pulling it with an old Landrover that weighs 2750kgs roughly and would pull a house, trailer is very lightweight at 750kgs, horse is about 500kgs and carriage about 200kgs so no issues with towing capacity.
 
They look totally unsafe to me, but regardless I’m afraid using second hand metal (which looks really too thin) to extend your trailer would give me the heebie jeebies!

Instead, why not find out if it’s legal to put a tow bar on the back of the horse trailer and hitch it on there behind the horse. Hard to reverse of course ;)
 
There is a limit on how long the combination of towing vehicle and trailer can be I saw somewhere, but no idea how you find out.
 
Also that little trailer is an unbraked trailer and it absolutely cannot be rated for 1300kgs. It will be a max of 750.

These extensions are an extension of the trailer chassis and highly dangerous if not done correctly. (Possibly dangerous even if done correctly I don’t fancy towing one personally!)
 
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Never seen that style, seen plenty of lightweight Sulkys though, attached to the back of both trailers and small horse lorries, like this:

8yfght.jpg
 
Eek to those diy carriage carrying options on the front of a trailer. The first would give a crazily heavy nose weight on the tow bar, even a defender will have a limit of c250kg ish. The second doesn't seem to have steering front wheels, how on earth would it cope with sharp turns or even mini roundabouts. And any unbraked trailer is indeed limited to 750kg.
 
I'm not sure about noseweight presumably it is possible that it is balanced but probably depends on weight of carriage and horse and say a fenix marathon is only 170 so would be doable given what is said above but presume yours is heavier?
But agree with FW they are an extension of the trailer chassis, not welded on to the front?
 
They look terrifying .
Equitrek make a carriage treka where you load the carriage into the front then horse behind .
They have three axles but all together .
I have one sitting parked up I really enjoyed it it was a good useful trailer that towed really well .
My carriages are all sold they go on Thursday .
 
ester said:
But agree with FW they are an extension of the trailer chassis, not welded on to the front?
Click to expand...

They arent. They come in a kit and they bolt on, and off. It is the chassis that the attach to though. Apparently they have tested the nose weight and its fine, but I'm not convinced. There are lots and lots of people using them and more than happy with them and have been for sometime so they cant be that bad.

http://hillamvehicles.com/carry.htm

The one I've bought is thicker steel than the type being used in the kit. I'm not going to use it as is. The plan was to strip it to pieces the same as the kit and then fit it the same way. However while I was looking at the options I found the picture of the one with the wheels on and it seems a much better idea.

I didnt know if there was a limit on how many axles you can have to tow with a B + E licence which might have meant it was a non starter. Turns out its fine. I've got my engineer/mechanic person coming to have a look at the weekend so will see what they think :)
 
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I'm an experienced towing bod, but I would not tow any of those Heath Robinson trailer adaptations for love nor money. Apart from DD's pic of the sulky mounted on the rear, which I've seen quite often.

Friends used to do driving comps. One towed the horses in a normal horse trailer, whilst the other towed the carts (or whatever you call them) on a separate low loader trailer.
 
I really wasnt keen on the idea initially but I've done tons of research and spoken to lots and lots and lots of people that use them happily. Surely all those people cant be wrong? They rarely come up second hand and sell immediately when they do, which is usually a good sign for anything.

I dont have a sulky so that would be no use to me at all unfortunately and I really wouldnt want my expensive carriage hanging like that even if it was an option. I also dont have a low loader and its not something I would consider getting either. I can travel the pony herringbone and fit the carriage in the trailer but that really will mess with the balance of it, so again, not really an option. I could amend the little trailer for the carriage and take it separately but that would mean buying yet another car and having bought 2 already this year it seems a bit excessive!

I'm quite happy to try the carriage extension and see what its like. If I'm not happy with it then I can always take it off again.
 
They may bolt on but they don’t simply bolt on to a standard trailer A frame they bolt onto an extended chassis or perhaps a shortened body but something has to change for it to fit between the front of the box and the vehicle.
 
A friend had one kind of like the first picture. The rails faced forward though and it was designed for a 2 wheeler not a 4 so much smaller all round but it was a proper exercise cart not a sulky cart.
 
FfionWinnie said:
They may bolt on but they don’t simply bolt on to a standard trailer A frame they bolt onto an extended chassis or perhaps a shortened body but something has to change for it to fit between the front of the box and the vehicle.
Click to expand...

They do bolt on to the standard trailer A frame. I think it says something about it in the link I posted, but I've looked at loads of this in the person over the last few weeks. They literally bolt on to the trailer chassis .
 
Leo Walker said:
I've spoken to so many people who have them. My only query was how many axles you can legally have with a B + E licence as I think its a much better idea to have the wheels there, but maybe theres a reason they dont do that. I'll see what my engineer person says :)
Click to expand...
As many as you like as long as it not dangerous and turns ok

The pic with the 3 axles had a turntable axle at the front which means it meets all the necessary criteria but had that been a fixed axle it would not
 
Depending on the size of your pony, you may be able to travel pony sideways in a customised livestock trailer, with a carriage in front or behind (whichever works best for weight distribution).
I frequently travel ponies up to 13hh sideways in a standard horse trailer, and have gone to shows with a friend who has a 14hh donkey + vehicle in a stock trailer.
 
Leo Walker said:
They do bolt on to the standard trailer A frame. I think it says something about it in the link I posted, but I've looked at loads of this in the person over the last few weeks. They literally bolt on to the trailer chassis .
Click to expand...

They bolt onto the extension which is the important part for safety reasons that you cannot bodge with the pieces of metal in that trailer that you’ve posted earlier saying you will use. The actually carriage carrying part of it is pennies compared to the importance of the steel channel extension being done correctly. For 750 quid for a ready to put on one, I’m really struggling to understand why you don’t just do that? Seems like a bargain to me!

“The front of the trailer draw bar is extended using steel channels and the existing coupling bolted on to the extension.“
 
pennyturner said:
Depending on the size of your pony, you may be able to travel pony sideways in a customised livestock trailer, with a carriage in front or behind (whichever works best for weight distribution).
I frequently travel ponies up to 13hh sideways in a standard horse trailer, and have gone to shows with a friend who has a 14hh donkey + vehicle in a stock trailer.
Click to expand...

Hes 14.2hh but very shortbacked and compact. I could travel him herringbone and fit the carriage at the front/back if I stood it up, its a big trailer, slightly shorter but slightly wider than a 510. But I think that would mess with the balance of the trailer too much. I might take it to the yard when its done and have a play with the pony/carriage/trailer all together. What it looks like on paper can sometimes be much better or worse in real life!
 
FfionWinnie said:
They bolt onto the extension which is the important part for safety reasons that you cannot bodge with the pieces of metal in that trailer that you’ve posted earlier saying you will use. The actually carriage carrying part of it is pennies compared to the importance of the steel channel extension being done correctly. For 750 quid for a ready to put on one, I’m really struggling to understand why you don’t just do that? Seems like a bargain to me!

“The front of the trailer draw bar is extended using steel channels and the existing coupling bolted on to the extension.“
Click to expand...

Yes, the extension bolts on to the frame. It can be taken on and off with a few bolts being undone. The whole thing pretty much flat packs down with a few bolts out. Having seen a lot of them in the last few weeks they are made of much less substantial steel than on the trailer I just bought. They are also made in an almost identical way to this trailer, its what they based the design on. Having recently spent hours and hours angle grinding the horse trailer frame I can also tell you that parts of the trailer are made of thicker steel than that. Its very substantial in real life.

However as I have said twice at least now, I bought the trailer for the steel with the intention of stripping it and using it for parts. The same parts that are in the extension kit. I've also sourced a recommended supplier of steel channels and sheet metal which is something else I will no doubt need. the same supplier who has provided the aluminium sheet flooring for the horse trailer, so I know they are reliable and trustworthy.

I'm not just going to bodge that trailer between the car and trailer. I have a friend who is an engineer and does a lot of mechanical work in his spare time who is going to plan it for me. I also have someone who will weld it all together. Its likely that in my case I will have it permanently welded onto the chassis, but I havent decided yet as I need to check the space I will have to store it and decide whether its something I want to do, they do design them to bolt on and off for a reason after all.

Mine isnt an Ifor so wont fit the standard kits that are available, and by building one from scratch I have more options to have it how I want it. Thats why. And thats why I wanted to know the legalities of 3 axles on a B+E licence so I had the facts before discussions are had and plans are made. It may be that from an engineering point of view that there is a reason they dont use an axle on it, who knows, I dont, thats why I have someone else drawing up the plans.

All I wanted to know was the legality of more than 2 axles which is why I didnt go into this level of frankly boring detail in the first post. I've done my research on the available options, and I've done enough of it that I'm happy with my decision. I only posted the pictures as I thought they would be interesting and make the post a bit less boring. If I'd wanted peoples opinions on carriage extensions this isnt the place to ask as no one here has used one. Thats why I have talked to several people who are currently using them and looked carefully at some in use, looked at the construction, the materials used, the measurements and made a note of any engineering type questions that I have.

I have even seen some home made ones, made without an engineer, proper DIY jobs, so its not unheard of for people to do it.
 
Rowreach said:
I've got a Richardson treble - room for the carriage in the front. Would that be an option?
Click to expand...

I looked for one for ages in my budget and couldnt find one, they arent very common. They take up an awful lot of room as well. I currently have the trailer parked at home in a standard parking space, which is useful to be able to do.
 
Or you you could just buy one of these. Is GS thinking of selling hers :D?

gosrOEW_d.jpg


Sorry to sound so negative, but you and your OH sound like quite novice towers. It's vital that a towing outfit is strong, well balanced, stable, and manoeuvrable. Your options look anything but (though I accept that you have been assured differently).
 
Why don't you just buy an ifor williams 610, put cart in the front and horse herringbone in the back (built for taking big horses herringbone so no issue with weight distribution)
 
Or get a van to tow. Pop the carriage in the back and the box on the back and you're good to go lol

Although most people I know just put the carriage on the trailer and the horse on at the back.
 
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