Is this the right thing to do with my youngster?

Also I very much doubt that they have had very large young heavily built horses and stallions
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It's irrelevant, actually - although I have been.

But small horse, big horse, they're pretty much all the same. I've never seen used, used myself or heard of it needing to be used a stick to 'hold off' a horse. Something is terribly wrong in their training if it's needed.

Your trainers job (as I understand it anyway) was to break the horse in - not teach it manners. That's your job.

As for enforcing your dominance over your horse, and successfully insisting he stays off his mates feed - rubbish. Either your horse is not the alpha you think, or you're spinning a yarn.

It doens't matter how many years worth of experience we all have - if we can't put it to good use, or learn from it - it's worth bugger all.........

You are right - I am anti Parelli. It's a money spinning machine aimed at people just like you. NH is a completely different animal - and most people practice it at some level every single day. You really shouldn't confuse the two.

NH is about understanding the horse, Parelli couldn't be further from this.
 
I don't agree with turning away after backing, personally. Waste of time. Wait until a horse is mature enough to be broken and ridden away in future, rather than splitting the process down the middle like this.
 
Storminateacup - have you read Richard Maxwell's new book - 'Train your young horse'? Its brilliant reading and gives loads of exercises that you can do both ridden and on the ground, so plenty of scope for working through some of it just now.

Its not parelli, but is NH and is really good and helpful. I had (and still have, although they're going!) a number of issues with my boy and I really found his practical advice very helpful, and the exercises most definitely work :):)
 
amymay said:
Firstly, I agree with the comment about experience, I've known people who have been round horses all their lives and are hopeless. Every horse they come in contact with gives them the same sort of problem, whether it actively takes the mickey or just ignores them. So yes, years around horses means nothing unless you understand what's happening and learn from it.

Parelli and NH are the same thing.

Parelli has tried to package certain aspects of NH and patent bits to protect the buisness. For example, the groundwork exercises Parelli call the 7 games are pretty much used by all NH practitioners, except Parelli have given them names and claim exclusivity in that respect.

Having looked at numerous NH training packages and there is very little to separate them. Parelli, is obviously the best known and has the slickest marketing, which has caused a lot of hostility in various quarters, but all the numerous branches of NH have a common root, going back to Bill and Tom Dorrance. It was they that formalized a technique which had been in use for thousands of years going back to 'Xenophon on the minds of horses.'

Parelli himself travelled around doing clinics, like many others, until Linda Parelli arrived on the scene, already a sales and marketing exponant, who saw the potential of NH and Parelli Natural Horsemanship, as it is now, was born.

The problem with NH as I see it, is that every one of the well known trainers, Parelli, Monty Roberts et al. are all trying to be original, which is difficult when your re writing the same book as it were.

Many have found that NH doesn't work for them, and it won't if you cannot get your head around what makes the horse tick, and how using NH techniques work between you and the horse. You are not a horse, and you're not suposed to be trying to be one, Alpha, or not.

Others say that using these techniques on a horse spoils it, and it has to be retrained, well, of course it has to be retrained. To use traditional methods, and there is a place for them, on a horse trained in NH is like screaming at it in chinese, it doesn't understand.

With NH you have to look beyond the current crop of trainers and the hype, and the marketing and the merchandising. Unless you have a feel for horses, no matter what technique you use, NH or traditional, you will have difficult to manage, too fast, too slow, hyper, dull, nappy horses.
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Personally I think his routine sounds fine, he must be feeling well so I wouldn't worry about him having a hooley. In an ideal world he would have another young gelding to play with, my 4 year old has 2 friends - one 3 & one old enough to know better and they play for hours, but needs must.

You are almost better doing nothing with him than doing stuff if you feel he'll be a challenge or may get away with anything. He sounds like he'll have a long rest & so it would be good to try and bring him back up as soon as possible, but really wouldn't worry in your place.
 
siennamum said:
Personally I think his routine sounds fine, he must be feeling well so I wouldn't worry about him having a hooley. In an ideal world he would have another young gelding to play with, my 4 year old has 2 friends - one 3 & one old enough to know better and they play for hours, but needs must.

You are almost better doing nothing with him than doing stuff if you feel he'll be a challenge or may get away with anything. He sounds like he'll have a long rest & so it would be good to try and bring him back up as soon as possible, but really wouldn't worry in your place.
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Thank you siennamum, and no he doesn't get away with anything with me, I work very hard to ensure that, but I also base all my training on positive reinforcement, release of pressure (NH style or reward /clicker training) I believe in all the principles of behaviour shaping and have used this on my dogs etc to great effect. All my previous horses have been super bold, well schooled horses, all hacks, I dont do much else save a bit of dressage and beach rides. I can do a good test and have done so on all my previous horses, and just for fun. All of them have been safe, well mannered bombproof animals that I could take to a Meet and have behave well. Whatever people want to conclude or say on here about NH methods (or Parelli) I am not really interested in their prejudices, neither their snidy asides at my competance, as my way of doing things is to take a little of this and that from many schools of thought and use what is appropriate for the situation.
I do not follow one doctrine religiously. I am a highly educated person (science grad twice over), and that would never be my style. I am also hugely cynical!!!! It is because of this that love to research new methods and take the best from any of them. I hope to be flexible in my learning, not ridged and narrow minded. For me all forms of NH have made an enormous contribution towards horse training, its just for me, Parelli offes a package, that I can afford, that provides a fairly simple program, I can work through. Most of the others are not so neatly package and with such back-up and support, which for those of us who live in the sticks, with few NH instructors around is a very significant selling point.
 
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AndySpooner said:
Firstly, I agree with the comment about experience, I've known people who have been round horses all their lives and are hopeless. Every horse they come in contact with gives them the same sort of problem, whether it actively takes the mickey or just ignores them. So yes, years around horses means nothing unless you understand what's happening and learn from it.

Parelli and NH are the same thing.

Parelli has tried to package certain aspects of NH and patent bits to protect the buisness. For example, the groundwork exercises Parelli call the 7 games are pretty much used by all NH practitioners, except Parelli have given them names and claim exclusivity in that respect.

Having looked at numerous NH training packages and there is very little to separate them. Parelli, is obviously the best known and has the slickest marketing, which has caused a lot of hostility in various quarters, but all the numerous branches of NH have a common root, going back to Bill and Tom Dorrance. It was they that formalized a technique which had been in use for thousands of years going back to 'Xenophon on the minds of horses.'

Parelli himself travelled around doing clinics, like many others, until Linda Parelli arrived on the scene, already a sales and marketing exponant, who saw the potential of NH and Parelli Natural Horsemanship, as it is now, was born.

The problem with NH as I see it, is that every one of the well known trainers, Parelli, Monty Roberts et al. are all trying to be original, which is difficult when your re writing the same book as it were.

Many have found that NH doesn't work for them, and it won't if you cannot get your head around what makes the horse tick, and how using NH techniques work between you and the horse. You are not a horse, and you're not suposed to be trying to be one, Alpha, or not.

Others say that using these techniques on a horse spoils it, and it has to be retrained, well, of course it has to be retrained. To use traditional methods, and there is a place for them, on a horse trained in NH is like screaming at it in chinese, it doesn't understand.

With NH you have to look beyond the current crop of trainers and the hype, and the marketing and the merchandising. Unless you have a feel for horses, no matter what technique you use, NH or traditional, you will have difficult to manage, too fast, too slow, hyper, dull, nappy horses.
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I agree with most of what you say Andy, I think many folk are under the impression that people who buy into a system ( ie Parelli) follow it religiously, as a doctrine, as a panacea for everything. A cure all. I would agree that those who do think like that ARE, misguided and clueless, and have little experience. I would maintain that you have to have a feel for the subject otherwise "woodenly" carrying out the instructions will achieve very little.
However I am NOT one of those people. But it is easy for narrow minded prejudice people to make a simple assumption that I am, especially based to the fact that I find this whole discussion so tiresome that I can hardly be bothered to put up a defence anymore!!!!!
To my mind is a pointless waste of time and effort!!!
 
It sounds from all of the posts I've read like you haven't really bonded with your horse and that everything is a constant battle of wills between the two of you.

Having horses is meant to be fun and it doesn't sound like you are having any with this horse.

Why not sell him to the riding school as they got alone well with him and presumably he'll have a good home.

Congratulate yourself on what you have acheived with him so far and start looking for another horse when your life is more settled.
 
tabithakat64 said:
It sounds from all of the posts I've read like you haven't really bonded with your horse and that everything is a constant battle of wills between the two of you.

Having horses is meant to be fun and it doesn't sound like you are having any with this horse.

Why not sell him to the riding school as they got alone well with him and presumably he'll have a good home.

Congratulate yourself on what you have acheived with him so far and start looking for another horse when your life is more settled.
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God there are some nasty bitches on this forum!!!
 
Storminateacup said:
God there are some nasty bitches on this forum!!!
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Yes, there are but tabithakat64 isn't one of them. She was quite politely and sensibly pointing out that it doesn't sound like an ideal partnership: you don't have the facilties to bring him on and seem to be struggling with him (and sound like you're intimidated by his size). So maybe you'd both be happier to go your seperate ways?: you could get yourself something a bit smaller that required less work and he could go somewhere with facilities to bring him on and keep him entertained. A perfectly sensible suggestion for tabithakat64 to make.
 
Kallibear said:
Yes, there are but tabithakat64 isn't one of them. She was quite politely and sensibly pointing out that it doesn't sound like an ideal partnership: you don't have the facilties to bring him on and seem to be struggling with him (and sound like you're intimidated by his size). So maybe you'd both be happier to go your seperate ways?: you could get yourself something a bit smaller that required less work and he could go somewhere with facilities to bring him on and keep him entertained. A perfectly sensible suggestion for tabithakat64 to make.
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You all stick up for each other whilst running down those who don't have the same perspectives as yourselves, don't you?. I DO have a bond with my horse, just because he is not easy at every level, DOES NOT MEAN I DO NOT HAVE A BOND WITH HIM!
He had a pretty rough start in life in Ireland, he was twitched and belted and was very nervous of handling and now within 8 months he has been backed, learned to accept a rider, rugs headcollars, farriers and is very trusting of me. But he is still a big powerful boy and needs some intelligentthinking when handling him. I love him very much and despite all the nasty sarcastic comments I get on this forum, he is not going anywhere!!
He has been lovely to ride and also bold and sensible. I have high hopes for us a team, even if it takes some time to get there. The best things in life are not always the easiest. For example he no longers slams his feet down, and gently picks them up for me when asked, no snatching up or striking out. He also holds his foot softly himself. He was twitched in Ireland and viewed the whole process as traumatic which no doubt it was, and where he would rear up when people tried to lift his feet.
You may not think thats progress but I do.
My other horse picks his feet up with the lightest touch on his knee or hock, he wasn't like that when I got him either!!
My daughters old ID/TB was a difficult horse too. He was very nervous and spooky a panicer, wouldn't load, wouldn't tie up, bolted with the less experienced riders, very spooky to lead about anywhere. 2 years of consistant work and he turned out the best horse I d ever owned.
So no, I dont think you are right, either of you, and intially the question I asked was about turning away after backing, and for winter. Nothing more than that really, plus I had an idea that what I was doing was ok anyway, but it was just meant to be a discussion point about backing and turning away. This post was not about having a dig at Parelli,and NH methods nor did I expect to get such a bashing of negative views from the likes of AmyMay, tabithia and yourself and being advised to sell him which is just plain nasty IMO.
Maybe you sell your horses when you encounter a few hiccups, but I ve invested a lot of time money, and emotions in to this horse and maturity and consistant training will win through in the end.
 
Kallibear said:
that it doesn't sound like an ideal partnership:
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An ideal partnership, takes time, consistancy and shared experiences.
You cannot easily buy an ideal partnership.
To think you can go and BUY the ideal partnership is naieve in the extreme!

No horse I have ever owned was ideal.
We had to learn together and build communication, yet I have had some very good horses that were my perfect partners.
 
Storminateacup said:
To think you can go and BUY the ideal partnership is naieve in the extreme!
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I don't think that this was what Kallibear and tabithakat64 were trying to suggest - I think they mean that ultimately, buying into something more suitable (not necessarily pre-produced, but in the horses's nature - mine has always been quiet and non pushy - that's just how he is) often pays off in the end (but then persevering does too, depending on your situation). For example, my friend bought a big, flashy young TB/Warmblood - really nice, but too much for her, he scared her and she stopped enjoying her riding so much so she sold him and bought a quieter and smaller horse who is easier for her to manage and has come on in leaps and bounds. (I am not trying to suggest that you are like this - it was just an example, I'm sure you are capable but that your horse can be a bit bolshy - a lot of them are when they're young).

Your perspective depends on what you want to achieve, and the goals of the OPs are probably entirely different to your own, as are their opinions - they are perfectly well entitled to disagree with you - calling them nasty bitches isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

Anyway, back to the original topic of breaking and turning away.
I personally disagree with it - I'd rather just back the horse and get on with it, rather than breaking (in effect) twice over but then I've seen some lovely horses who've been turned away. I don't think that it negatively affects the horse in any way, more than from the owner's perspective, it is cheaper and easier to break once rather than twice, especially because there doesn't seem to be any advantage to breaking, turning away then re-starting unless the horse has some serious growing to do (some WBs aren't finished growing until 7/8 and I wouldn't want to leave it until then to break them in).

I understand that he is your horse and you (understandably) love him, but I think you're going to have to accept other people's opinions more readily if you're going to ask on an open forum - perhaps they're right, who knows. Basically, I think that you should do whatever's best for you, whether that be to put the work in now or buy someone else's - there is nothing wrong with either. I agree with tabithakat64's suggestion personally, and I don't know her at all. :)
 
Kallibear said:
you don't have the facilties to bring him on
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ERRR What? We have our own land, my hubby is building my round pen next spring, and a sandschool is in the pipeline. We have approx 16 acres of pasture plus a further 20 acres of woodland that will need pathways cut, thats true, and miles of off road riding too in the Highlands. I think I have greater chance of getting my facilities in the not too distant future than most people have!!!
 
So you have 16 acres of pastureland and a wood. What you are or aren't getting next year makes no difference to your problems now..
 
Storminateacup said:
Maybe you sell your horses when you encounter a few hiccups, but I ve invested a lot of time money, and emotions in to this horse and maturity and consistant training will win through in the end.
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From what ive read, you are a caring considerate owner.

Having young horses is a challenge indeed with many many steps backwards before venturing forwards. But one day you will look back on these moments and just think "yep, we did it!" and have a happy horse to grow old with together! (well thats how I look at me and my 3 year old!).

Very good luck :)
 
Storminateacup said:
God there are some nasty bitches on this forum!!!
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I seriously wasn't trying to be nasty.

I have got the impression from your other posts that you find your boy challenging and at times due to various reasons not always in your control you struggle with his behaviour given his past and size and you current circumstances. So I responded.

With regards to to your question about turning away, I think it depends on the individual horse, you may be better carrying on riding him through the winter.

Have you thought about introducing some toys into the smaller paddock for your youngster to play with? Branches, hanging swedes up, a beach ball or treat ball and see if these help keep him entertained.
 
tabithakat64 said:
I seriously wasn't trying to be nasty.

I have got the impression from your other posts that you find your boy challenging and at times due to various reasons not always in your control you struggle with his behaviour given his past and size and you current circumstances. So I responded.

With regards to to your question about turning away, I think it depends on the individual horse, you may be better carrying on riding him through the winter.

Have you thought about introducing some toys into the smaller paddock for your youngster to play with? Branches, hanging swedes up, a beach ball or treat ball and see if these help keep him entertained.
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Thank you tabathaka64, we have swedes hanging all the time and just bought a Gym ball, he has a treat ball too. Everyday we play some games, backing up, leading, lots of clicker/ rewards training, he gets to go in the big field a couple of days a week for a mad hoolie with Jack who will gallop about too. I try to occupy his mind whilst we wait for weather to change. Round pen cannot go up 'til spring as fields need work on draining them etc. So we are making do, like most people until things more favourable.
.
 
Winter-Pony-Land said:
From what ive read, you are a caring considerate owner.

Having young horses is a challenge indeed with many many steps backwards before venturing forwards. But one day you will look back on these moments and just think "yep, we did it!" and have a happy horse to grow old with together! (well thats how I look at me and my 3 year old!).

Very good luck :)
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thank you so much for being able to see things as they really are,and so agree young horses are always a challenge and one doesn't just sell them on when things get tough. You know exactly where I am coming from, and the direction I am going in. He will make a wonderful horse and I have great confidence in that statement.
 
I read your original post and was keen to offer advice, however having seen your comments I rather think you shouldn't have bothered posting in the first place: I would very politely like to say that you seem to think you have it all sorted.

If one is asking for advice, one shouldn't immediately shout at those who offer it.
 
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