Is this true.... foals.....

I have not really decided if I want her at home or at the stud to foal down, my vet seems to think at home with her companion who is due to foal the day before would be fine.
As for the colostrum the stud yard have told me they have a supply and it,s not far from me, and my foaling bucket as been ready since the first scan lol
 
i hate to tell you all, but in some cases when they do this, they kill the heinz57 foal because they need its skin to put on the orphan foal to encourage the mare to accept it - mares aren't idiots. i had to get a foster mare (foal died at birth) and orphan foal together once for a friend and the dead foal's skin was tied to the orphan for days so that she smelled like the mare's baby.
it's pure economics -heinz foal is worth, say, hundreds, tb foal might be worth an absolute fortune. very very sad and horrible. so, the ones that survive really are the lucky ones.
iirc Pippa Funnell's coloured Bits 'n' Pieces was one of these Heinz57 foals. i heard that sometimes it helps keep the tb stallions keen on the job too, some of them like a nice chunky bit of common mare...
 
kerilli said:
i hate to tell you all, but in some cases when they do this, they kill the heinz57 foal because they need its skin to put on the orphan foal to encourage the mare to accept it - mares aren't idiots. i had to get a foster mare (foal died at birth) and orphan foal together once for a friend and the dead foal's skin was tied to the orphan for days so that she smelled like the mare's baby.
it's pure economics -heinz foal is worth, say, hundreds, tb foal might be worth an absolute fortune. very very sad and horrible. so, the ones that survive really are the lucky ones.
iirc Pippa Funnell's coloured Bits 'n' Pieces was one of these Heinz57 foals. i heard that sometimes it helps keep the tb stallions keen on the job too, some of them like a nice chunky bit of common mare...
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I've heard this too, same for other animals too. And as for the chunky mare, my instructor was telling me the other day that at one stud there was a really hair, cobby old mare that always got the stallions in the mood!
 
On the stud where my 2 yr old came from they keep many foster mares, as I mentioned, mine was one of 17 foals that I viewed. My lad was taken off his mum at 2 1/2 months and bucket reared in a small group of weanlings. He is well adjusted and well grown - which I put down to the excellent care the stud staff give the babies.
 
And do you all think that these foals are abused, not looked after to the highest standards of care etc. Yes, large studs often do have a pool of cobby types mares kept for the purposes of surrogacy, this saves taking resources away from charities that offer to help people that need foster mares or foals. I have no problem with it. The ones I worked with were well cared for and the mares did a fantastic job. I didn't see any foals being put down to aid the process because the mares we had were very good and the whole thing was set up to make it easier for everyone. You have to remember that as unsavoury as it sounds it is a big business with the TB being worth large amounts of money - they are not breeding pets so things may seem a little more harsh to your average horse owner.
As for the foals from these mares, one of the places I worked for auctioned them off for charity once a year and they made big prices as they often turned out to be fantastic competition horses and were often coloured. A friend of mine has one of these foals and he is a super star.
 
OK, I have to really post on this thread, because I work in the TB stud industry, and I also have a so called 'by-product'. In fact, he is my 2nd 'by-product' horse. So I think I'm qualified to have an opinion.
There are lots of people who produce 'foster' mares, some larger studs produce their own, others will pay a producer for the use of the mare. The foster mares usually foal at different times of the year to the TB, so that their foals have as lengthier time as possible with their dam. Both of my youngsters had a good few months before weaning off. So I like to think of it as early weaning.
I've certainly never heard of a foal being killed and skinned in mainsteam TB studs, so get the facts correct before you accuse an industry like that. There is a very set way to foster a foal, and it doesn't involve killing anything!
It IS a subject which some people find difficult to understand. But the breeding of TB's is BIG money, and these horses are not pets, they are investments, and people want to protect their investment as much as possible. Don't try and compare it to breeding leisure horses, it is a completely different world.

As for the 'Heinz 57' foals, they are usually reared in pairs or small groups, and all the ones I viewed were happy horses. Many get adopted by the staff, or find homes within the industry. They can be bought quite cheap, but good homes are sought.

And finally, I just want to add that I am offended that you view these foals as such a useless throw away by product that no body wants. My first one was a classy Arabxcob who is doing very well now in dressage. And my current one?.......
This is him winning his class yesterday..

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BallyshanHorses said:
Right off over there.By the way I work in the TB breeding industry and have never seen foals killed so that their mother could adopt another foal.Bits and Pieces that Pippa Funnel rode was also a by product of the TB breeding industry.By Ridgewood Ben I think out of a Batty mare.
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LOL at 'Batty' mare, its been ages since I heard that one, I was in Ireland at the time. Echo what you said about killing foals, I have never heard of that either. With the skilled staff and techniques it is not necessary from what I have experienced.
 
I have never heard of foals being killed either, I have also worked at one of the vets in Newmarket and had never seen or heard of this happening.
 
BallyshanHorses said:
I think as long as everyone knows what they are doing and experienced in fostering foals then there should not be a problem.What do you call "Batty" mares over there.It makes them sound a bit mental I suppose.We had one two years ago called Nora(Batty).She was lovely and took to the foal within a few hours.
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Boringly they were just called the 'Foster mares' or the 'Gyppos' at the places I worked at that had them! They were really sweet and everyone loved them. At one place I know, there is one mare that everyone wants her foals as they are really nice looking and great performers. Nikki's boy is out of one the popular mares at that stud too and you can see why.
 
BallyshanHorses said:
Right off over there.By the way I work in the TB breeding industry and have never seen foals killed so that their mother could adopt another foal.
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Neither have I. With foals who have died for whatever reason, yes the skin will be taken from it to place on the baby seeking a new mother so that the mother of the dead foal will accept it more readily. Never have I heard of a foal being killed for this purpose. I think there is more than a little bit of fabrication going on in this thread.
 
jaypeebee said:
Neither have I. With foals who have died for whatever reason, yes the skin will be taken from it to place on the baby seeking a new mother so that the mother of the dead foal will accept it more readily. Never have I heard of a foal being killed for this purpose. I think there is more than a little bit of fabrication going on in this thread.
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Just a tad of fabrication I think.Everyone who breeds horses have a responsability to the foals they breed.It would not do any favours to the TB breeding industry if this were true and I know from any studs I have worked on it has definately never happened.The batty foals always got the best of care,food and attention.
 
jaypeebee said:
RSL if you drink milk and are familiar with dairy cows and calves then you will understand the point of my comment. How do you feel about adoption of human babies immediately after birth? Or puppies whose mother dies in childbirth? I could go on with another lot of examples but Im sure you understand where I am coming from. These "poor" babies know no different. They are still being raised, they are still being fed and will grow up into healthy well adjusted horses regardless of whether it is their mother or some other mother who raises them.
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Hi,
I wasn't familiar with that and I don't think its right either.

What I don't understand is, you have 2 mares, one that rejects her foal, so they pass the foal onto mare number 2 but in order for her to take the "step foal" on she has to give up her "real foal", why not pass the rejected foal onto another mare that has lost her foal, it makes more sense then tossing out a perfect healthy foal and mother for their own benefits.
 
RSL do you mean like swapsies?? lol.If so its not always because of rejection quite often the mare might of died. Also the me that is trying to reject her foal they try to get her to accept the foal but if she wont accept her own its unlikley thay will accept anyone elses.
I also remembered last night that in one of the big studs they had for a while just the gypsy maes in the field with there foster babies and one of the mares used to let all of the foster foals have some milk from her!!
 
Thats true Gleek, some mares will take on more than one foal!
I know that people will always find this thing hard to understand.
Foster mares are bred for their temerament and the way that they easily accept new foals. You cannot just take on any old mare who just so happened to lose their foal. It's just not quite as simple as that.
Usually the TB foal which is in need of a foster mum is newborn, and at a crucial time in it's life to need the mare, whereas the foster mares real foal is usually a few months old, and more than capable of surviving being early weaned.
As I said before, the TB industry is BIG business, and there is a lot of money invested in these foals. Some foals will be hand reared, if they are old enough to cope. But the majority will have a foster mare, thats just the way it is.
The other thing that I think you should consider, is that these 'by-product' foals are born on excellent studs, raised by experts and recieve the best possible veterinary care. So try not to feel sorry for them, they are well cared for and in my experience they are loved by the staff. IMO they have a better start to their life than many hobby foals bred by inexperienced breeders.
 
I've heard a version of that - it's how the previous owner of my pony thinks he may have come about, not sure if it was just a thought she had or was fact as couldn't get much more info on it from the owner previous to her who I contacted to find out more. My pony is a bit of an odd mix so could well have been a Heinz 57 foal...certainly wasn't a racing or TB stallion used though if so :D but there is something of quality in there.. :)
 
pixi said:
baby needs its moms colostrum milk to survive surley they let it have it before they take them away.
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True - and they do get this as the foal that is being fostered on will have had either Mum's or some replacement colostrum - we always keep stocks of good quality colostrum (which we always test at birth and save some if it is top quality). So no one misses out and I echo NikkiP on the fact that these foals probably get far better care than most 'hobby' bred foals. I don't know many hobby breeders that test or have large supplies of quality colostrum hanging about.
As for swopping the foster mare's foal onto another mare, one would hope that there are not many mares around that have lost their foal for this to happen. Fostering is not undertaken lightly.
Also the reason such mares are kept are also for disease control, the standards of hygiene on a stud is vital so to introduce a new mare into the herd for fostering is risky and having a supply of stud raised mares reduces this risk.
 
Just found this thread.

I too work in the TB Industry. The farm where I work has over 100 TB broodmares and we have 5 foster mares. All the foster mares are bred to one of our TB teaser stallions. Two of the current foster mares have produced county show winners, another mare herself went to HOYS as an intermediate hunter, another represented her country at pony level in dressage - we are not breeding cr4p here, even with the foster mares! And the main teaser stallion has only sired about 20 offspring in his life, yet 4 are County winners, another is now registered BE, another is working for the RDA and the others who's owners keep in touch are much loved good all rounders, doing PC and RC activities.

We currently have 2 fosterings going on atm. One TB foal onto a foster mare and the foster mare's own foal is being fostered onto another foster mare, who will hopefully raise both her own foal and the other foster mare's foal - she has done so in the past. The TB foal's dam is currently in a critical condition following her 2nd colic operation in 10 days. There is no way she could raise her own foal!!

As for the killing and skinning comment, perhaps this is what was done before the invention of fridge freezers and vix? I know that dead lambs are sometimes skinned for fostering purposes, when a ewe has triplets/quads... When our foster mares foal, their placenta's and as much amniotic fluid as possible is saved and frozen. If the mare is needed for fostering, then these are defrosted (really NOT the nicest job!) and the foal she is to accept is rubbed all over with these fluids/materials. The mare's nostrils have vix applied to them and she is blindfolded. There is someone with the mare and foal 24/7 until the fostering has been successfully completed. Obviously not the same person, it's done on a rota basis.

I can completely see the argument of 'why not look for a mare that has lost her foal'. However, consider the EIA scares recently, the strangles cases you hear about, the viruses that go about that can cause abortion in mares. When you've paid over a million for a good number of the broodmares and they are carrying to stallions with 6 figure nomination fees, you HAVE to minimise the risks as much as possible. Not just from an economic perspective either, but from a good husbandry point of view. We do not allow horses on the broodmare side of the farm without a 2 week quarantine period, involving strangles bloods taken on the day of arrival and 14 days later. They also HAVE to have negative EIA and EVA bloods and up-to-date flu/tet vaccinations BEFORE they are allowed on site, full stop! So you can see how this would hinder any fostering, surely?
 
Like SN, I've only just seen this as as I was mentioned earlier, thought perhaps I should share my experiences of foster foals as I have two. Sorry it's quite long so grab some tea and a biccy.
Two years ago, everything was foaling late, the foster mares had been due early January but hadn't popped until early March; this meant that their foals were very much younger than by when they are normally needed so certainly too young to wean and hand rear; something had to be done as they're such a large (and very successful stud) they just did not have the staff to commit to rearing these foals. I was asked if I knew of anyone who would like to foster some foals as their dams were needed for TB mares; (one mare had to be operated on, the other rejected her foal savagely) like an idiot, I jokingly replied 'if you want to deliver them, I'll have them'. Did I really know what I was letting myself in for?
The next day, one foal, a fortnight old, arrived with his suitcase of Equilac milk replacer already measured out in doses into surgical gloves, the only plastic bags they had at the time to last him over the weekend and until I could get a supply of my own! He had to be fed that every two hours, including through the night; it was a bit of a wake up call to say the least! He also had less than a small handful of Suregrow added to some damp bran to have twice a day; the damp bran made it easier for him to eat it and once he was eating easily, he just had Suregrow. The other foal was still on his dam as she had accepted the TB foal and was coping very well but a week later, the TB foal was taking so much from her it was decided to send her own foal down to me too, so then I had two - and it was the best thing as they kept each other company and amused so the less I handled them the better; we've all heard stories of stroppy hand reared youngsters, I didn't want mine to turn out that way.
The night feeding was hard, I make no excuses for that. For the first 6 weeks, they were fed the milk every 2 hours although they had ad lib hay to nibble as well, this meant I had to rope in hubby to help. I would do all the day feeds and last night feed at 2am, go to bed and he would get up to feed at 5 and 7am. That regime for 6 weeks is very wearing I can assure you then bliss, we dropped to every 3 hours and on the advice of D & H and of the stud, last feed was at 2am, first feed at 6am; sheer bliss! A month later, it was every 4 hours, a month after that, every 6 hours, a month later, just twice a day gradually getting smaller amounts until they were weaned off the milk powder at 6 months old. In that time, I used over 20 buckets of D & H Equilac at nearly £40 a time and it's worth every penny, I was very impressed with their condition on it and would recommend it to anyone either in the same position or needing to supplement the mare's milk.
They are now two, gelded of course and nothing like we expected! Freddy was thought to be the true sportshorse model from his appearance as a foal but is more like a cob while Harry was expected to become the successful show cob like his other siblings and he has turned out to be leggy and elegant, more of a riding horse than any cob!

Would I do it again? You bet your life I would, it was a fantastic experience, wouldn't have missed it for the world and it certainly put my mind at rest that bucket fed foals would not be of the same standard of development or growth as those on their own dams; that's a pile of poo and these two are the proof of that although I appreciate not all are the same. Even after all this time, I still haven't got my usual sleep pattern back; I still can't sleep until well after midnight!
Some pics to refresh the memories, some of you will have seen them before.
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First day out!
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Their first time turned out with another one, up until then, they were so small, we had kept them apart although able to talk over the gate.
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I remembered seeing this thread and thought people might be interested. .

There is a horse at Rolex this weekend, Amistad, that is a product (bucket raised) of a nursemare on a big TB breeding operation. He's by one of their stallions that's produced some good runners but also lots of successful sport horses, out of a halfbred Percheron mare, so certainly not a random breeding at all. He's just jumped around clear and is in 16th, and has won all the way up the ladder, including a couple of Adv. so he's obviously worked out just fine.

I know the objection to nurse mares but don't think it's fair to assume their foals are "cast offs" and not well cared for by the studs. As mentioned, they probably get better care in many ways than many "wanted" horses and they also have the HUGE advantage of growing up super surroundings in a herd/peer group which many horses are denied in these days of AI and single mare breeders. Honestly, I think this is almost as big a disadvantage for a foal.
 
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