is winter an excuse for thin horses ?

piebaldsparkle said:
Can I just point out the question was............ is winter an excuse for thin horses ?

Not LEAN, but THIN
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this exactly.....my meaning is yes lean is ok in winter or summer dependant on circumstances but do people use winter as an excuse for very thin horses?

I think most cant afford to keep up with costs etc or don't realise how much a horse will eat as in summer at grass they cant see.... for instance I know one owner who comes and feeds one haynet (which contains one slice of a small hay bale) then the same at 4pm that is all horse gets so horse ends up with every bone showing...her answer is but he winters very badly... and sadly people seem to accept this !!
 
One could equally ask "why do they get fat in the summer"

I daresay everybody would answer "to get them through the winter"
So dropping weight in winter seems to be a more natural way of things.

Also so many variables. From reading here i see a lot of people saying they work less in winter, so why would you want the horse/pony up to hard work rates of condition?
Different if you have a full work/competition schedule throughout the winter.
 
One of my geldings is quite a sensitive soul and definitely looks less chunky during winter even if his feed and management doesn't change - He doesn't like the cold and I think once it's warmer and there's spring grass + he's going out more he feels a lot happier which in turn means he looks a lot better :)
 
horseandshoes77 said:
this exactly.....my meaning is yes lean is ok in winter or summer dependant on circumstances but do people use winter as an excuse for very thin horses?

I think most cant afford to keep up with costs etc or don't realise how much a horse will eat as in summer at grass they cant see.... for instance I know one owner who comes and feeds one haynet (which contains one slice of a small hay bale) then the same at 4pm that is all horse gets so horse ends up with every bone showing...her answer is but he winters very badly... and sadly people seem to accept this !!
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This is unacceptable in my opinion.. Mine get exactly what they need but one is difficult to keep weight on no matter how much we feed. But feeding little because of the cost and allowing your horse to become thin is wrong!
 
Not all horses have a reduced workload in winter - those who hunt or point to point are often in their most intense period of work. And if you have a fussy feeder, then they are often not as keen to eat hay or haylage (or even hard feed) as they are lush spring/summer grass. So in those cases, you can understand why some horses look a little lean by this time of year.

So if you have a hunter or a fussy feeder who is a condition score of 3 in the autumn, then it is not surprising or unacceptable if they drop some weight and are a 2.5 by Spring, even if on ad lib forage and 3 bucket feeds a day.

It is also important to define 'thin' correctly. Vets say that a healthy weight is a body condition score of 2.5 to 3 on a 5 point scale. Yet many people would classify a horse with a condition score of 2.5 as thin, because they might be able to see the outline of the last couple of ribs, when they are used to seeing show condition' animals of condition score 4 or above.

However, there are people who do not seem to realise how much grazing contributes to the overall calorie intake of the horse and how much that decreases during the winter months. There are many horses that are unnecessarily thin (ie less than 2.5 condition score) in winter purely due to lack of extra forage, which is inexcusable.
 
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but a lot of the time one horse will lose more than another because of temp...ie I have one ish who is always cold...she needs rugging more than my sporthorse who is always quite warm...but even so they don't end up emaciated by feb regardless of weather !
 
Well I guess if having a thin horse in winter is "piss poor management" so is having a chubby one in summer. And I guess any owner with a less than perfect BMI is guilty of piss poor management of their own diet.

All horses are different, their metabolisms vary, their needs and quirks vary. There is no excuse for neglect or mismanagement but weight can be a huge battle, keeping it on as much as keeping it off. Especially if it is your first winter with the horse or there has been a change in circumstances.

I had a horrific time with the weight of my girl during our first winter together. We have managed her better this last winter but she remains a horse who will drop weight very easily and quickly and struggles to put it on.
 
Aarrghimpossiblepony said:
One could equally ask "why do they get fat in the summer"

I daresay everybody would answer "to get them through the winter"
So dropping weight in winter seems to be a more natural way of things.

Also so many variables. From reading here i see a lot of people saying they work less in winter, so why would you want the horse/pony up to hard work rates of condition?
Different if you have a full work/competition schedule throughout the winter.
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so its ok for horse to get really thin in winter as they will be really fat in summer lol...I don't get this either...mine are kept at a good weight all year if they are getting to fat in summer I up the work reduce the grass same in winter in reverse lol
 
My TB mare lost an awful lot of weight, she ties up too so we can't pack her full of high energy conditioning feeds, admittedly the rugs went on a little later than they should have, but she had 3/4 rugs on over most of christmas and the cold spells. She also gets depressed when out of work, and managed to go lame, so was out of work, she turned 16 this year, so it's her first 'veteran' winter. We fed her as much as possible, different feeds, higher energy feeds than we should have, so much hay we wasted a load because (being a TB) she pooed all over her food (brilliant logic!). All muscle was lost and we had vets out, we were close to putting her down, because she really did look like an RSPCA case, and I can truly say that I don't think we could have done more for her. I'm sure a lot of you will have opinions of what we could have done more etc, but it got to the extent I rand an animal psychic to see if she could 'tell' me anything. Worming all up to date, everything. She was a little anemic, so we gave her a supplement for that, and she's still just on the lean side of 'healthy' for me, being ridden to build muscle and being fed enough for two horses. She's had her rug off twice this year for all of about 3 hours each and she's still in a medium weight, which will increase with the colder nights ahead.

The Shetlands, on the other hand, have wintered incredibly well! muzzles will be bought for summer.
 
No, never an excuse IMO. We've only ever owned TBs for horses (ponies we had pretty much everything!) and our first horse was a geriatric TB at that. He came to us thin in November, and by February was in good condition- he outgrew a girth he gained so much weight. He was 27 the winter before he was PTS, and came out of a season hunting and competing almost chubby... He was naturally a very poor doer.

It might be expensive and difficult to keep the weight on, but you signed up to care for the horse- the expensive and difficult is part of the parcel. IMO, if a horse is old it is even less of an excuse as you should be working twice as hard to keep them looking well.

This sounds sanctimonious, I'm sure, but I hate it when people blame the weather. Al looks after a yard of hunters/ TBs and all of them have come out of this winter looking in correct condition.
 
Until you've been in the unfortunate circumstances of owning one of these skinny in winter horses you really can't truly comment.
I always felt it was a mixture of bad management amongst other stuff until this winter.
Octoberish time we got an ex racer. 0 fat, pure muscle. We have him winter off with the occasional light hack as he's young and we wanted him to stay in touch with being ridden.
In the end he was fed at 7am, 12pm, 4pm and 9/10pm. He had ad lib haylage and was well rugged. We had be vet out to check also. He was out every day on good grass. His teeth were done and there was no problems there. Vet also confirmed he didn't think that there was any 'problems' just purely an ex racer trying to put on fat in a bad winter.
He's now on significantly less feed and looks fantastic. Still a bit skinny and tubby. But nothing you'd notice. Apart from being a little ribby he is extremely happy, full of energy and has a lovely coat.
I hope to god this winter has been a one off because he's cost us a fortune!!!
 
Hmm, see I think it is natural for horses to drop some weight in winter and that it is also natural for them to puton weight and 'store' fat through the summer to help them get through the winter. That is of course a horse in a 'wild situation' able to roam and find grazing.

Grass does not grow at the same rate or have the same nutritional content during the winter months as it does in spring/summer so surely common sense would say a grazing animal would need to huold up fat stores to help through this time?

Now of course, the majority of us don't have horses left free to roam and we substitute with hay/hard feed etc. However, I do think this winter especially has been difficult as, when the horses started to shed their coats and when spring was supposed to arrive, instead we got a load of snow dumped on us, the grass hasn't grown and horses haven't had that early flush of spring grass that is the norm.

As a consequence yes, some horses are maybe thinner than people would like. Our old TB quite frankly looks a ribby moth-eaten mess! However, he has two decent feeds a day and they've all had plenty of hay right up to this week. He's always been a slight-built TB and it doesn't help that he loses his coat in weird patches and we have tried to rug him but he gets too hot so then rubs his coat which makes him worse! We have out the horses onto the field that has been untouched since for months and not doubt he will fill out again. The other oldie (27) does a lot better and holds weight pretty well.

It isn't easy, some horses just seem to be harder to keep weight on than others. I don't think though horses should be kept fat in winter - I have seen a few and it's no wonder their owners struggle with laminitis etc in the summer when they keep them so rotund all through winter too!
 
It is natural for them to loose weight in the winter, and they should really. This does not mean thin, though. All the laminitis experts say that it is better that they loose some fat in the winter. Depends on what type of horse though, and no animal should be thin and very underweight.

Mine were looking on the lean side (good) but a couple of weeks in the summer starvation paddock and they have put on a lot of weight, because the grass is growing. I may not be able to see it, but from the amount of weight they have gained and the amount of droppings, they are definitely getting plenty to eat.
 
As has been pointed out, thin no, but what do you class as thin?

My youngster going through a growth spurt would score about 2.5 at the moment. He is fit and healthy and a very tall horse with good bone so I don't want him putting on any chub thank you. His future longevity and health as a veteran are important to me. Winter has also been a good opportunity to get some of the excess weight off the new mare. She had been was rugged to the eyeballs and kept in at night, with ad lib hay 24/7. Already her coat, skin and hooves are improving from the additional exercise of 24 hour turnout, and reduced feed.

But I would never want to see any of them with hip bones or more than a faint trace of rib. There's no excuse for not feeding enough. If you can't afford the forage you can't afford the horse.
 
This winter has been particularly harsh and prolonged, most of our field horses (warmbloods and TB crosses) have come out leaner than I have ever seen, this is despite adlib hay and daily hard feeds. To be fair the natives and ID are still tubby!
None were rugged as they are a mixture of growing youngsters and brood mares who we never rug.
Standing against cold wet snow and a biting east wind burns calories trying to stay warm.
While some horses have clearly not been cared for adequately ours have but their condition reflects the climate. The grass is through now so mine are already perking up!
 
No it is not an excuse for a thin horse. But anyone who watched the Talk about Laminitis webinar the other week will have seen the expert on there state that horses are designed to drop weight over winter, and keeping the weight on and letting them go into spring the same weight as they started the winter is one of the reasons so many have laminitis .
 
This winter has been a b&&&&R for horses - far too wet. My horses are on the best hay they have ever had, have plenty of hard feed, and are wormed - and are not being over worked - but they have lost loads of weight.....they are picking up now they have had a couple of days sun on their back - but they just hate the relentless rain, and cold. They are out by day (and have spent really rainy days in the stable - but that does not help their condition either - as they would sooner be out)
I am not worried, as they will be Ok in a few weeks, but I hated the first day that I turned them out without their rugs - and I could count ribs.....If I would have done one thing differently this time - that would not have been to clipped them the first week of November......but they have been more than adequately rugged.
 
horseandshoes77 said:
I just don't understand when people say oh they always drop weight in winter?

I have had numerous horses of all shapes and sizes including tb and have not found them to drop in winter, if they are rugged accordingly and fed plenty mine have a tendency to put weight on as their work load is decreased?

I have a sneaky suspicion high hay/haylage prices are a contributing factor along with livery yards not allowing hay out in fields etc but I have yet to find a horse that would drop weight just because its winter !

I suppose it was different for the wild ponies who had to find very little forage in the winter months but really with all the stabling and rugging etc is winter a real reason they drop weight ?
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i have had horses for over 40 years, cobs and tbs and never had any problems keeping weight on during winter...HOWEVER my current horse(owned for 11 yrs) who is 22 and has cushings(is on prascend), lost weight dramatically this year despite good rugs,plenty of hay and haylage ,teeth done and worming ok...... and i tried everything to get her to eat any sort of feed, she is now picking up as she is on good grazing so please dont assume that it is to do with money everytime a horse loses weight. i have had many a sleepless night worrying
 
Well, mine have dropped weight over the winter but neither could ever be considered underweight! They are nice and slim, just the way I like them, but in a nice healthy way, with no ribs showing or hips sticking out. It's been easier this year as they've lived out for much of the winter, so have spent much less time stuck in stuffing their faces and more time moving about and grazing. We've managed to get their field sectioned off now that the spring grass is coming through (they really don't need the run of 8 acres while the grass is growing!) so I actually stand a good chance of keeping them at a good weight. I always struggled on livery yards, where they would go from winter fields with no grass to summer fields with lush, fertilized grass.
But no, winter isn't an excuse for thin horses. Good opportunity for the fatties to slim down a bit though :D
 
Nudibranch said:
But I would never want to see any of them with hip bones or more than a faint trace of rib. There's no excuse for not feeding enough.
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The problem with answering this thread is that this description, for me, of a horse whose ribs you can barely find and hip bones you can't see would be fat.

It's completely natural for horses to weigh less at the end of winter and I deliberately let mine lose weight just before the spring grass comes through to give them 'breathing space' to put some weight back on before I start bringing them off the grass during the day. I have found that if I stop the late winter weight loss, they just get fat 'overnight' as soon as the grass comes in.

Thinness is linked, provided it is not too extreme, with longevity and health in most mammals. I'd far rather see all a horse's ribs when it moves than none of them.
 
I think a lot of horses have dropped weight this winter - some of mine included.

Speaking to my feed merchant the other day they have sold more conditioning cubes in the last few weeks than at any other time.

This has been a long winter with a late spring. Also a lot of last year's hay and haylage had a lower nutrional value than in previous years.
 
All the hay/haylage and silage that was made last year may appear to look and smell fantastic (as ours did - we made amazing hay and silage) but actually due to the horrendously wet conditions last year - it holds very little calorific value as a lot of the goodness leached out. Our silage clamp holds nothing but bulk with very little nutrient for the cattle. All the farmers were having to supplement with extra hard feed to cover this. (In this area anyway). I have a small, very finely built TB who went into winter very lean following an horrific accident late summer (all her weight fell off her within days). Despite all she could eat of what, on appearance, would seem like superior hay she still had to be fed three times a day to keep her up and even then she looked poor. Thankfully our grass is finally starting to show an appearance and following a winter of good exercise, hunting and plenty of grub she has come out of it looking shiny and very healthy but with no fat at all.

I'm just hoping that a decent summer out (our horses are fittest in winter for hunting and let down for summer) and no repeat of accidents that next winter she will fare better :rolleyes:
 
Went to an interesting vet talk Theother day about body condition scoring horses. That vet said ideally coming out of winter at 2.5 to 3 and out of summer not more than 3 to 3.5. It was also interesting to be reminded that weight isn't judged on belly and that assessing ribs should be done high up on the rib cage, not down by their belly. According to that scale a horse whose ribs you could see faintly would be a score 2, and a well covered but still shaped (hips) bum would be a score 3.

And apparently most owners are to kind to their own horses when doing body condition scoring, and tend to score then leaner than they actually are :D it was recommend to ask your vet when they are out for anything else, how's my horse's body condition score?
 
cptrayes said:
The problem with answering this thread is that this description, for me, of a horse whose ribs you can barely find and hip bones you can't see would be fat.

It's completely natural for horses to weigh less at the end of winter and I deliberately let mine lose weight just before the spring grass comes through to give them 'breathing space' to put some weight back on before I start bringing them off the grass during the day. I have found that if I stop the late winter weight loss, they just get fat 'overnight' as soon as the grass comes in.

Thinness is linked, provided it is not too extreme, with longevity and health in most mammals. I'd far rather see all a horse's ribs when it moves than none of them.
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It is a question of perception my hunter would be too thin by Nulibranchs standards you can see all his ribs very clearly when he turns when he's playing in the field .
But I think he looks great very lean but muscled he looks fit and very "well" .I am letting him down now though as he's been in work almost the whole time I have owned him.
I do keep my horses a bit fatter when they are resting but like them pretty lean when in work but carrying a lot of muscle , there's no point in a horse in a hard work lugging round a load of fat as well as a rider.
It's horses who are lacking in fat and muscle that are a worry .
 
spotty_pony said:
No. Any horse can keep its weight during the winter with correct management and care.
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Not true. I once owned a mare who would not eat unless she was coming into season regularly. It took two winters for me to spot the pattern, and once I was able to give her hormones in the winter she was fine. People thought I was mistreating her but I wasn't.
 
It isn't an excuse for a thin horse if it caused by the owner not feeding enough or having veterinary attention when needed.
I have struggled this year to keep weight on my horses. I have never seen my old girl look as lean as she is now and she has had plenty of feed ad adlib hay all winter. I am hoping that now the grass is starting to grow they will put a bit back on. Now doubt by the end of May i will be having to restrict their amount of grass a sthey are getting a bit fat then.
 
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