Issues in selling a horse

NicNac123

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Hi, I’m just after a bit of advice really. I recently sold my horse as a ‘happy hacker’ due to him being fed up of me trying to force him into an outline and jumping etc. I had lots of interest but went with a lady who was local. She told me she was inexperienced but would be keeping him at her ‘dream yard’ and would have lots of help. My horse is a novice ride, my 9 year old can hack him out! He has a couple of quirks, one being he cannot be turned out with other horses as he can be a bully, which I was very clear about and on dropping him off was shown a field next to other horses where he would be ket on his own. She called me a week after she had him to say he wouldn’t let her ride him out which I thought was odd. I told her I would go the next day and get on and see what was wrong with him as that’s not like him. The following morning I got a text saying it would be better for me to just collect him. When I got there, he was absolutely petrified and not the same horse I had dropped off. He was covered in cuts and swellings where he had been kicked and bitten, he also had a nasty whip mark across his side. He had been turned out in a herd and obviously this had gone badly as I said it would. He had had no fly protection on and has a nasty eye infection as a result. Another of his quirks is that he head shakes, I have managed this with piriton as prescribed by the vet and he had virtually stopped. He had not been given this and his head shaking is worse than I’ve ever seen it. I loaded him immediately and told them I would have to re sell him to pay their money back as I have bought a new horse. Where do I stand on how much I have to pay back given the condition he is now in? I have had the vet to him and the physio who have had said he needs at least 2 weeks off, he’s really unsettled and I can’t even think about reselling due to the state of him, never mind the trauma it’s caused him and me. I am also now paying double livery as luckily my yard owner had space. I’m not saying for one minute I shouldn’t pay them back but I think it needs to reflect the problems it has caused him.
 

CMcC

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What does the text she sent you say? If it says it would be better for you to collect him and does not say anything about repayment in my view I would not repay her. Has she challenged anything you said about his quirks, or said you misrepresented him to her? If not I think she has made a massive error in thinking she could cope with owning a horse and has been badly advised/served by the “dream yard”. Her problem not yours. If you can afford to repay anything once you have resold him after deducting vet and physio bills and the additional livery you are having to pay give her that.
 

Birker2020

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Hi, I’m just after a bit of advice really. I recently sold my horse as a ‘happy hacker’ due to him being fed up of me trying to force him into an outline and jumping etc. I had lots of interest but went with a lady who was local. She told me she was inexperienced but would be keeping him at her ‘dream yard’ and would have lots of help. My horse is a novice ride, my 9 year old can hack him out! He has a couple of quirks, one being he cannot be turned out with other horses as he can be a bully, which I was very clear about and on dropping him off was shown a field next to other horses where he would be ket on his own. She called me a week after she had him to say he wouldn’t let her ride him out which I thought was odd. I told her I would go the next day and get on and see what was wrong with him as that’s not like him. The following morning I got a text saying it would be better for me to just collect him. When I got there, he was absolutely petrified and not the same horse I had dropped off. He was covered in cuts and swellings where he had been kicked and bitten, he also had a nasty whip mark across his side. He had been turned out in a herd and obviously this had gone badly as I said it would. He had had no fly protection on and has a nasty eye infection as a result. Another of his quirks is that he head shakes, I have managed this with piriton as prescribed by the vet and he had virtually stopped. He had not been given this and his head shaking is worse than I’ve ever seen it. I loaded him immediately and told them I would have to re sell him to pay their money back as I have bought a new horse. Where do I stand on how much I have to pay back given the condition he is now in? I have had the vet to him and the physio who have had said he needs at least 2 weeks off, he’s really unsettled and I can’t even think about reselling due to the state of him, never mind the trauma it’s caused him and me. I am also now paying double livery as luckily my yard owner had space. I’m not saying for one minute I shouldn’t pay them back but I think it needs to reflect the problems it has caused him.
OMG that's awful. I have no advice other than to consult an equine solicitor for advice. I think this will save you money in the long run.

Aren't people complete morons!!??? I am so sorry for your poor horse and so glad you have rescued him from that awful situation.
 

honetpot

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I am really sorry this has happened to you, it's every seller's nightmare. You really need good legal advice, and perhaps if you are a BHS member ring the BHS helpline for advice.
In the mean time I would collect evidence, and write a timeline of what you told her which forms the verbal contract of the sale, and pay for a vets visit and assessment, and take photos of all the injuries with something beside them to give and idea of scale. I assume she had the horse vetted before she bought it, that report is hers, so you can not have access, but if she takes you to court it could be useful.
I would offer her a token amount, 'as a good will gesture' to buy him out right, while you are working out what he is worth now and the costs involved, you didn't have to collect him and as a private seller he was 'fit for purpose', when you sold him. You took him away because you were worried about his welfare. A vets report would prove his injuries and lack of treatment, and let her take you to small claims court.
It almost makes you want to pay for the buyer's vetting, so you know you at least have some record of the condition of the horse when sold, even if they choose the vet.
 

Woody Le Bois

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Keep the record of all the money you will have to spend to get him right (livery, farrier, vet, etc.)and substract that from the sale price due to her. When he has sold and you are in a position to refund her, write her a polite letter explaining this and asking for bank details so that you can wire her the sale price less what you have spent. If the expenses exceed what she paid for him, I would say that there is no money due to refund and as a gesture of goodwill, you will not pursue her for the reminder. If anything, this could be a good gambit for negotiations (I am a solicitor but not in equine or litigation).

On another note, as you were selling as a private person, the principle of caveat emptor (buyers beware) applies. This means that, unless misrepresented, you are not obliged to take the horse back and issue a refund.

It is a horrible thing that happened to the poor horse and I hope that he comes right.
 

Bernster

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What a sad situation. Hope you can sort him out and find him a better home. I think you’ve gone above and beyond in taking him back. Agree I’d be getting some legal advice on what her rights are, if any! I wouldn’t communicate anything to her until you’re clear on that but agree to keep a note of your expenses in the meantime.
 

Polos Mum

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I would offer here £1 and be prepared to explain in detail how that is the value he was less cost of treatment and livery until he can be resold including your time.

I think you could have a go at arguing that her text was her offering him as a gift to you. But I'm no lawyer and legal advice is key if she gets difficult.

What has she said in relation to payment for him? You have to buy him back from her as she is technically still hers.

Alternative you could offer to treat and re sell him on her behalf if she puts up the cash to do that and look after him in the interim.
 

Ample Prosecco

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What a nightmare. Yes get legal advice. You may be viewing this in 2 entirely different ways: she could see it has she was missold the horse and she has sent it back and is due a full refund. You could (I would) see it as she bought a horse who was fit for purpose and she was negligent resulting in injury to the horse. She asked you to collect the horse and you agreed to re-sell HER horse. He is still hers. So she needs to pay for treatment, sales livery etc. And then she can have the sale fee less fees and your commission when he sells. But she may now think you own the horse. And owe her a refund.

I don't know legally where things stand as you don't have a fornal agreement to act as a seller for her with fees set out, and nor does she have an agreement from you that you will take back ownership of the horse and refund. Legally neither of you are really in a clear position. She owns the horse, you have the horse. You are making decision that cost money without the owners permission so some could argue you are behaving like you own the horse which she could use against you. I think it could get very messy if she claims you took ownership back. So yes get legal advice asap. And be clear what you want too. As she might decide she wants her horse back to sell on herself if your costs massively rack up. Which I assume you don't want.

If she is being reasonable and understands she has massively screwed up then coming to an agreement with her to buy back the horse at a reduced price to cover his treatment may be your best option as you retain control then of what happens to the poor animal.
 

Trouper

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So much good advice on here and well done you for getting him back so quickly.

I would only add to keep up the initiative with her on what you propose to do and not let things drift or let her start calling the shots. So quick legal advice on your position seems essential so that you know the line you need to take.
 

Lucky Snowball

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Lots of good advise above. I'm just glad you put the horse first and took him back. The passport is not proof of ownership but I'm just wondering if she has sent it off for change of owner or if she gave it back to you with the horse? If she passed it back to you then maybe she was gifting the horse back to you?
 

Leandy

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You have very good advice here. You don't mention what the buyer said about any refund or what her understanding of the position is. Where is the horse's passport and whose name is it in? The passport is not evidence of ownership but still it needs to pass with the horse. I hope she understands that you had no legal obligation to take the horse back and that she has no right to a full refund. I would echo taking proper legal advice quickly so you are clear on a plan of action and how you are viewing the position. The key issues to ensure you are agreed with the purchaser are who now owns the horse, who is responsible for costs including livery, vets etc etc and what if any refund you will provide and when, and where ownership of the horse lies until any such refund. You need a clear written record of all these points preferably signed by you both as evidence of the agreement. I would get on with agreeing that as soon as possible, before the buyer starts to put her own spin on things.
 

Lou27

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So sorry to hear about your horse and the horrific experience he endured in just a week with her. Hope he’s showing signs of recovery and there won’t be lasting damage. As others have stated, document absolutely everything. I wouldn’t communicate with her at all until your solicitor advises you. Best of luck.
 

AmyMay

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Thank you so much for all of your advice. I have simply had a text with their bank details saying here are my details for when you re-sell the horse. He isn’t going anywhere at the moment, if ever, so I will get some advice from an equine solicitor regarding repayment.

Please do it tomorrow, as it stands you’re in a really tricky situation, and the quicker it’s all nailed down the better x
 

Leandy

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I wouldn’t communicate with her at all until your solicitor advises you.

This is important. You can say you are taking legal advice and leave it at that, but don't be drawn into any more discussion on the issue until you have taken advice (and add the cost of your legal advice to your list of costs to consider deducting from any refund).
 

The Irish Draft 2022

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I think we have to be careful on what we say. We haven’t seen the horse ad or now the horse in real life . There is always 3 sides to every story the seller story the buyer story and the truth. I not trying say or accusing op of dishonest . I personally think we should take everything on pinch of salt on this forum especially issues like this.
 

Winters100

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Thank you so much for all of your advice. I have simply had a text with their bank details saying here are my details for when you re-sell the horse. He isn’t going anywhere at the moment, if ever, so I will get some advice from an equine solicitor regarding repayment.

It sounds to me as if they perhaps accept their mistake and understand that they cannot receive back the full amount immediately. As the others have said you need to understand your legal position before entering into further discussion, but once this is clear I would ask them for a face to face meeting to agree and document the situation.

To me the fair way to handle this would be that she pays the livery and vet and you re-sell the horse and keep a small commission.

I agree with EP that she was probably persuaded by the new yard that they knew best, and while she should of course have been stronger, I would not say she is necessarily 100% to blame, as it is difficult for a novice to ignore advice in this situation, especially when it comes from people who she knows that she needs help from.

I am sure that others may disagree, but if she is a nice person who acknowledges that she has made a mistake, I might think of another way. In this situation I might explain to her where she had gone wrong, and suggest that she give it another try, but keeping the horse at the same yard as you, and with you helping her.

I'm glad that you did the right thing by the horse in collecting him. Now you just need to find out what your position is, and what the buyer wants / expects from the situation.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.
 
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