Issues leading in from field - frustrating!!

I take the view that in an all out tugging contest between me and horse that horse wil always win. I would suggest ground work with any horse who is inclined to take off when being led. It does not take long to teach them.
I ride a friends horses and several of them will try this trick when being bought in. Owner likes to double the lead rope over their noses which I hate doing. Any pulling when I lead them will result in their being circled until they get over it and if they attempt to break free I get the end of the lead rope and pull their heads around. Also keep calm and confident and avoid pressure on the rope whilst they are walking nicely.
 
redfoxhunter said:
Thanks for your insight, but at no point did I mention reprimand. He came in, with two of us leading without food, and got a treat and fuss when he reached his stable.
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I was actually referring to not being churlish with MY horses, who had to adapt their behaviour to the strong winds and torrential downpours we encountered during last winter and the early part of this year. However I did notice from your post that you had labelled the horses ‘a bum to catch’ and ‘a prat to bring in’; when you label horses this way, you unconsciously start to behave in a manner that reflects your attitude… this is entirely human, normal and understandable, but the drawback is that being the masters of intent and body language, horses tend to act in the way they think you want them to, and this increases what some see as ‘bad behaviour’, but they fail to see it can be their own actions that have trained the horse to behave in this way. No, applying labels to any horse is always dangerous.


This is why I approach every horse I meet (no matter how badly behaved or unruly) with the attitude that its one aim in life is to be my best friend; in behaving this way my demeanour becomes that of the ‘walking lion’ not that of the ‘stalking lion’ which to a horse makes no end of difference. Many have talked of increasing levels of pressure in order to gain control of the horses involved, but this is never a good thing… The use of devices (chiffneys, pressure halters etc) and the potential or actual increases in pressure that they bring doesn’t give control, it only brings about the illusion of control, which anyone with any amount of equine experience knows that the horse can bring to an end at any time it chooses simply by increasing the pressure it brings to bear on the human half of the equation…. Horses fitted with chiffneys or pressure halters can still pull away or rear, the discomfort they temporarily feel being rewarded by the release of pressure they feel after they have broken away…. Which is why the sense of control that the handler feels they have is just illusion…. Even the most violent of gadgets work only with the horse’s co-operation.


I have said many times before that in order to ‘control’ any horse, you only have to be in charge of a pound and a half of that horse; for those that don’t know, that pound and a half is to be found behind and roughly between the horse’s eyes and ears… Once you are in the horse’s mind the other eleven hundred pounds of bone and muscle will follow your every direction without complaint. Using pressure and devices does not get you into the mind, if anything it drives you further away.


Further, devices that ‘bury’ bad behaviour don’t cure it, for it will reappear at some other time, either in a reinforced version of itself, or something completely new… for instance horses are bright enough to know that not being caught rids them of the pressure of a chiffney, so the reluctance to being led, changes to reluctance to being caught… the underlying issue is still there, but now shows itself as a different form of behaviour.


With that in mind, it would seem to me that in order to change your horse’s attitude to being led, you’re going to have to change the way that you and they interact and work together. The only way to truly get rid of previously unwanted behaviour is for the horse to work out for himself that his current behaviour is of no benefit to him, and that if he behaves differently life becomes so much easier. Doing things this way takes time, consistency and skill on your part… and there will be times when the horse will use his old ways against you, but this is to be expected, he would be making major changes in his life, and he has to be absolutely certain that what has worked for him in the past, still no longer works with the new ways (sadly this is where a lot of folk get disheartened, give up, and declare that the new ways are rubbish).


I’d make a start by spending time with him on the paddocks just doing nothing and enjoying each other’s company, then it would be a case of headcollar, lead short distance, reward and release; but it is important to do this at odd times… horses are directed by cues, and if we approach at a time when he’s regularly ridden for example, the cue has already started, as has his resistance. This is one of the drawbacks of underestimating horse intelligence… something we do at our peril. The leading distances should be increased, but each time rewarded for good behaviour, and each session should end on a high note... that gives you something to build on. These methods do work, I’ve handled countless horses with ‘issues over humans’ and have had them bucking, rearing, striking out and circling at canter on the end of a six or twelve foot lead rope, until at last they stop and say “This is wrong, you’re supposed to have let me go, or run screaming from the paddock by now…” That instant is your opportunity to reward and reassure the horse which then becomes the horse’s eureka moment, and you get that look that says “Well if that’s what you wanted, why didn’t you make it clear right from the start…” But it’s important that the horse makes these changes for himself, because as I’ve said already to be absolutely certain of success, the changes have to come from within the horse, and pressure devices won’t make that change.


As always stay safe… don’t bite off more than you can chew, and if you feel uncertain get someone in to help you… there’s no disgrace in asking for help when dealing with problems like this, and badly handling any circumstance with horses will only make it worse. When you do get help, make sure that they explain to you what’s going on and why they’re doing what they’re doing… and they should spend as much time training you, as they do the horse, that way you’ll be better prepared for any future problems, either with these or any other horses you meet along your horsemanship journey.
 
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Urban Horse.. What a good explanation :)

I'm also really he surprised at the number of responses advocating various control methods rather than just training the horse to lead nicely. One horse I ride is very easy to lead because we've taught him to walk at the same pace of whoever is leading him.this includes a 6 year old child btw. Last winter he spooked badly when I was bringing him in and he did everything except pull to get free. Unfortunately it did result me holding into a 500kg of angry scared cob doing aerial acrobatics as I danced around him avoiding flying hooves. It never occurred to him that he could pull away from me.
 
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Aside from all the gadgets and treats etc have you tried leading him in backwards from the field in just a normal head collar and leadrope, like pushing him back from the chest with your hands and not letting him turn. This has worked very well for me in the past and doesn't involve any nastiness you just have to be firm in steering them but it's quite easy for anyone to do.
 
GSLS said:
Aside from all the gadgets and treats etc have you tried leading him in backwards from the field in just a normal head collar and leadrope, like pushing him back from the chest with your hands and not letting him turn. This has worked very well for me in the past and doesn't involve any nastiness you just have to be firm in steering them but it's quite easy for anyone to do.
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Never tried this! Good tip, thank you.

Urban Horse, I have pm-ed you.
 
But sometimes these 'gadgets' can help retrain the horse - if a Dually is used in the proper manner it is a great training tool, the fact it also helps with control is just a bonus.
 
Try it and let me know. Just push him back like you would in the stable or at a mounting block...They can't go very fast as they can't see where they're going and soon learn it's much easier the other way. I think they do it when horses won't load on a trailer as well as a kind of reverse psychology. But not sure on that. Good luck.
redfoxhunter said:
Never tried this! Good tip, thank you.

Urban Horse, I have pm-ed you.
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AengusOg said:
I think you need help rather than advice, actually. If you have been working with these horses for six months and really not making progress, you need someone to demonstrate techniques which you can learn.
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This. A training session for all the yard so everyone who handles these horses is on the same page would be especially good. One person doing one thing and others doing something else is not as effective in the long term and one way to get horses that lead for some and not other handlers.
 
L&M said:
But sometimes these 'gadgets' can help retrain the horse - if a Dually is used in the proper manner it is a great training tool, the fact it also helps with control is just a bonus.
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This. Urban Horse - you posts are always a good read and make a lot of sense - however, once a pattern of behaviour becomes established, we sometimes need to use a 'persuasive' bit of kit to remind the horse of what WE consider acceptable behaviour. Our skill and experience of horsemanship comes to the fore when we actually use these various bits of kit - this is what matters. Sometimes when working on busy professional yards, there simply isn't the time to 're-bond', the best we can hope for when time is short is 're-train'. In an ideal world it would be lovely to have bags of time to spend with individual horses, but when the boss is stamping their foot impatiently and you've got a lot of work to get on with, you can only work with what you've got.
 
littleshetland said:
This. Urban Horse - you posts are always a good read and make a lot of sense - however, once a pattern of behaviour becomes established, we sometimes need to use a 'persuasive' bit of kit to remind the horse of what WE consider acceptable behaviour. Our skill and experience of horsemanship comes to the fore when we actually use these various bits of kit - this is what matters. Sometimes when working on busy professional yards, there simply isn't the time to 're-bond', the best we can hope for when time is short is 're-train'. In an ideal world it would be lovely to have bags of time to spend with individual horses, but when the boss is stamping their foot impatiently and you've got a lot of work to get on with, you can only work with what you've got.
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What matters, and what should always be uppermost in any horseman's mind is 'How Does The Horse Feel About This". But professional yards aren't the horse's fault, they are a product of man's inherant greed and self imposed time limits. We have made this modern world, full of labour and time saving devices, yet we don't have the time to turn out well balanced horses? That's not the horse's fault, it's ours.

The Dually is an aversive, simple as that, and produces a mindset in the horse where it has no option but to obey for fear of what happens if it doesn't. We've always had pressure halters, thin rope halters and war bridles, but they were never given soft names, they were what they were. NH practicioners have given them names to make them sound more desirable, less threatening and to make them socially acceptable, which in my opinion is not justifiable.

You only have to visit any horse forum and you will find posts concerning horses bought from dealers, who's new owners now face no end of problems... Indeed the Blue Cross issued a statement a few years ago concerning the reasons why horses were donated to them, sadly behavioural issues topped the list and even at that time those issues were on the increase... this is the result of our self imposed time constraints. If horses were trained properly to start with, your boss would be happy, just think of all the time he'd save not having to quickly re-train problem horses. Going about the job correctly in the first place would save time, even if it took longer.

I know that my views make me unpopular, but I don't care about popularity, with me the horse is the number one priority. Besides I turned my back on the mainstream horse world years ago; prefering instead to work in peace and quiet with my own horses.... and yet I still hear the same "Oh well it's alright for you, your horses are perfectly behaved", but they started out wild, untrained and with issues just like any other horse.

You might, or might not, like to read ben Hart's take on pressure halters.

http://www.hartshorsemanship.com/in...oughtUuid=2EE04722-1999-2340-D0B804A4F9947717
 
Aah -Urban Horse, I agree with you 100%. All horse start their lives pretty much a blank canvas, for the most part, they are what we make them, and in an ideal world there would be no war, no poverty, no greed and all horses would be treated with kindness and understanding (people too..) - you get the picture, but unfortunately, this is not the case. We are stuck in this reality and have to make the most of it and do the best we can.
 
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