Issues with farrier - advice please

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Tayto

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Firstly - I have recently posted about going barefoot, this is something I have been considering for a few months and NOT as a result of my most recent farrier visit.

Anyways - moving on to the issue. My mare is 8 years old and I have had her for nearly 8 months. The first time the farrier visited she had a haynet and was fine. Second time he visited she had a haynet and was a bit of a brat, pulling her legs away, jumping about and being a total pain.
All the times after that she seemed to get progressively worse especially after the shoe gets fitted as she freaks out at the smoke. I was distracting her with a lick which seems to work for less time every time he visits.

The last visit was a total nightmare - she pulled her leg away after only 5 minutes of him working on her and was a total brat to the point the farrier wasnt sure if he could finish her and we ended up putting a twitch on which gave us a window of her standing still but she was not impressed and took every opportunity to drop her foot.

I feel sick thinking about the next farrier visit and I need some advice on how I can sort this. I have a tube of sedalin and am considering using it next time but am worried the adrenaline will counter-act the sedalin....

I dont think it was helped by the fact that the farrier lost his temper at her which turned her being naughty into her actually being nervous.

She has recently been checked by a vet and physio so I doubt it is pain related - I really just think she is a stubborn monkey who doesnt want to stand so has worked out that if she messes around the farrier has to drop her leg.

She will stand for me to pick out her feet but if I take too long she will snatch them away - when she does this I pick them up again and hold them for a few seconds to teach her she wont get away with it.

On the other hand - if she isnt being naughty, I wondered if she is really unbalanced and she struggles to stand on 3 legs for a prolonged period? If this is the case - how can I help this? Surely sedating her will make a balance problem worse?!

We are not allowed haynets on the yard I am on now so this isnt an option however if it might help I may have to speak to the YO and ask her if she can make an exception for Tash....

Arghhh - stressed!!
 
Spend more time training her - if she snatches her feet hold them by just hooking your fingers over the toe. Then when she moves go with her - she can't lean her full weight on you like that, and it will be easier for you to just let her know that that isn't going to work - no shouting or getting stressed, just hang on until she gives up and then gently place her foot back on the floor. And then find a farrier who will spend more time - it would only be fair to let him know he needs to allow more time - and accepts that she can be a fidget. If she has got worse while this current on is doing her then he isn't being as considerate as he could be.
 
Im very interested in the answers here as I have a very similar problem, used to be barefoot then with a change of farrier was told he needed at least fronts on so we went with this. Pony was fine for the first coupe of times shoeing but then got so bad the farrier nearly couldn't get the shoes on. Anyway have moved yard since then and have a new farrier who has been very patient. We have been giving him treats which seems to work but he does pull away when farrier is banging the nails in (this is the part he hates). I get stressed at shoeing times now always wondering if he is going to be a pain or not. My one is nervous of the farrier so isn't actually being naughty as such. Im also thinking of going back to barefoot being as he was previously, and hopefully get things right this time, it would also take the stress out of shoeing for him as he is fine to be trimmed.
 
I had a bad one , farrier hot shod him in his box, which made me very nervous due to shavings [flammable]
The b******** tried to kick said farrier ..... who was lucky not to get injured, it was total badness, and obviously not being handled properly for seven years!

It is possible that it is related to some discomfort, I would have her lifting legs every day, and never let go till you are ready, so you need bedding in case she falls!

I would ask for the haynet as long as you explain and sweep up.
With a youngster I would tie up alongside a quiet one getting shod, but she has already learned bad behaviour.
Can she be shod cold?
I would go barefoot behind, less stress all round.
 
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And - I forgot - while you are handling her feet, get her used to you tapping them with something - hoofpick, back of a dandy brush, anything hard, just to get her used to the sensation. And ask for her to be cold shod, at least while she is learning about the process.
 
I think people forget how tiny the room for error is with horseshoe nail placement.

nail+placement.jpg


If the horse has had nails tight to the live tissue, they are more likely to object to the nails being banged in. Then the more the horse objects, the harder it is for the farrier to place them correctly, so it's then more likely that the nails will be tight to the live tissue and thus be sore for the horse.

OK, some horses do just need training because they are impatient or unruly, but others have good reasons to object to being shod.
 
For me, if she was okay, and now isn't then something isn't right and not just from a behavioural aspect. If she is not holding up for you when picking out feet, then I would put down to more a pain issue.

I say this because my horse will refuse to pick feet up period, if he is uncomfortable because of his feet (been prone to LGL/Lami). This is how I know that something isn't right from the off and need to take dietary action etc. As soon as he is comfortable on his feet, he will pick up without me even needing to physically pick them up :D

ETA: I did have to do a lot of repetitive training though when I got him to get him to pick up his feet, and there are some times like when he has haylage (like cat nip to him) he will just plain refuse. I will then move him back/forwards/sideways and catch the foot as it is picked up. You do have to be quick though!
 
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Agree with the others about doing more investigations. A horse should learn to be able to balance on three legs and not be frightened of having their feet picked up. That is a learning issue.

If they have been good, and then start being troublesome then you need to look at other reasons. I have know difficult horses become quiet when barefoot, as the trimmer is not doing anything invasive, "just need you to hold your foot up, mate."

So it could be that the farrier has inadvertently hurt the horse which makes it frightened. Or there might be an issue in the legs that is making the horse uncomfortable and it might hurt to hold its leg up.

Mine was good, but a fidget and it was actually the farrier who commented on how much better behaved he was - after a recent vist from the physio, who found several areas of tension in his back. It was pretty uncomfortable for him to hold his hindlegs up for the farrier, although he was OK with having feet picked out.

There is usually a reason, it is finding it which is the problem.
 
Tayto said:
We are not allowed haynets on the yard I am on now so this isnt an option however if it might help I may have to speak to the YO and ask her if she can make an exception for Tash....
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Why on earth doesn't she allow haynets? I would absolutely be demanding that she is allowed one in this instance purely for the farrier, I see no reason why the YO could disagree. If you think this will take her mind off it and make her stand then go for it. A haynet always worked for a young horse I had years ago who was a pain in the ass with the farrier otherwise purely because he was bored without something to eat.
 
My lad was always funny about his back feet being shod. One visit after a bit of faffing and swinging his feet about I just said to leave the backs off. He is now barefoot behind and much much happier. No problem getting the fronts done. He was either telling me he didn't want them or it was sore, I don't know, but everyone's happy now and I save money :)
 
cheeryplatypus said:
My lad was always funny about his back feet being shod. One visit after a bit of faffing and swinging his feet about I just said to leave the backs off. He is now barefoot behind and much much happier. No problem getting the fronts done. He was either telling me he didn't want them or it was sore, I don't know, but everyone's happy now and I save money :)
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These horses must think we humans are totally thick . they are telling us important things, and wwe ingore it
 
I have just had a full check over by the vet as when we moved yards she was showing some strange behaviour and I was worried so got the vet to do a health check and said she was a picture of health. Physio was at us 2 weeks ago and gave her the all clear so far as far as I know she is not in any pain. She shows no worrying behaviour when ridden, lead in from field, in stable etc so I really think she is just being impatient and stubborn. She is perfectly fine before and after the farrier visit and after she pulls her leg away etc she doesn't freak out she just stands and looks at you.

Yes she got a bit nervy this last time as the farrier lost his temper with her so I need to get the issue sorted or at least a bit better before his next visit.

I am inclined to think it is a training issue. She was shod for the first time last year (at her previous home) so it may be that she has not been trained to stand for the farrier and as she was 7 the first time she was shod I can imagine it was quite a shock for her.

So.... I suppose I have just answered my own question haha! But maybe some of you lovely folks can give me some tips on how I can train her to stand quietly for the farrier.

Also if I have to resort to sedalin - does anyone have experience of using this for farrier visits and if so was it successful?

Will also speak to YO about having a haynet up for the next visit as she is a total food monster and goes mad for a haynet!

Ps - just to be clear, we are not allowed haynets in the tie up area but we have nets in our stables. Just for anyone that thought we weren't allowed them full stop!

:D
 
I am asking myself the same question. I bought her from a dealer and they couldn't tell me much info about why she had been shod. She was used as a broodmare until she was 6 so perhaps when she was in regular work it was the done thing to stick shoes on her? I have recently posted about transitioning to barefoot as I don't want to have shoes on her if she doesn't need them. ATM we don't do any jumping etc so she doesn't need them for grip. We hack on pretty even ground and have a lovely surface in our school. I asked the farrier if he could see any reason why she would of been shod and he said no and she had pretty good, hardy feet so could probably go back barefoot if I wanted.....

Up until now I have just kept her shod as I didn't want to make any changes as she is still quite new to me. Also if we did go barefoot and for any reason she needs shod again in future it would be good to have her trained to behave for the farrier
 
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We use lickits as bribes for youngsters while they are shod/clipped/manes trimmed for the first few times. That is the only time that they get them, and they seem to forget whatever else is going on. This could be useful if you can't give a haynet (and the horse will like it more than hay anyway!)..
 
How about trying an more understanding farrier and not one that's going to get cross with her.

I had a horse that had foot issues my lovely farrier did the fronts one day and the backs the next so not too stress the horse out too much. Took only 2 lots of shoeings to have the horse behave, never had an issue again
 
If the farrier hasn't balanced the feet correctly this can cause discomfort, my guy used to need loads of breaks when we were first sorting out his feet, now that the balance has been improved he is happy to keep them up.
 
If you have a farrier who has lost his temper with her - find another farrier. QED - she is scared. I won't have a farrier on my yard again if he loses his temper - he has no business around horses if he can't walk away and suggest more training. It is only a short step from losing temper to hitting a horse.
 
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Faracat said:
I think people forget how tiny the room for error is with horseshoe nail placement.

nail+placement.jpg


If the horse has had nails tight to the live tissue, they are more likely to object to the nails being banged in. Then the more the horse objects, the harder it is for the farrier to place them correctly, so it's then more likely that the nails will be tight to the live tissue and thus be sore for the horse.

OK, some horses do just need training because they are impatient or unruly, but others have good reasons to object to being shod.
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Ditto. My guess is the horse is objecting due to pain, may be hoof inflammation, nailing, trimming too short to receive the shoe (sole often) etc. This also soon becomes a big training issue which can be hard to resolve. You need your farrier on board to start working slowly and carefully in ways the horse can cope with, other wise it could well end up a fight every time and some one may get hurt.
http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/Gavilanandthefarrier.htm
 
I aggree you need to find out if it's pain or bad manners
You could ask the vet about giving a dose of Danilon the night before and on the morning of shoeing and see if it helps.I don't mean permanently but to see if she better .
Meanwhile you need to work hard on it this holding up each leg for long period of time and banging with a little hammer each foot daily .
I had a little hunter he never settled to hot shoeing either the smoke or the smell freaked him out he was cold shod not ideal but better than risking hurting the farrier.
 
I recognise that photo of nail placement :-)

Lost count of the number of horses I've been called to where there has been this sort of issue. In every case it has been pain related.

One horse was so clever as soon as she realised I wasn't going to be replacing the shoe I had removed she settled and has been no further bother. And previously she had been rearing at the sight of farrier tools. That was an extreme case but I've many similar.

A lot of behavioural issues are in my experience related to pain or fear or both.

It is inhumane not to eliminate the possiblity of these before engaging in corrective techniques. It is possible to subtly bully horses to accept huge amounts of pain, doesn't make it right though.
 
the photo is really interesting, I really think I need to take the plunge and go barefoot, I just need to be brave and stop worrying. I think my lad is obviously trying to tell me something after showing his real dislike for having his fronts shod.
 
LucyPriory said:
It is inhumane not to eliminate the possiblity of these before engaging in corrective techniques. It is possible to subtly bully horses to accept huge amounts of pain, doesn't make it right though.
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I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is it can so hard for humans to understand or see where pain might be coming from and assume the horse is being a **** and this can lead to the bullying and worse. I know because I have been a bit of a bully in the past. :(
Behaviour problems around hooves are very frustrating unless you can take a step back and drop your immediate agenda and think things through with the horses' opinion at the centre.
 
amandap said:
I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is it can so hard for humans to understand or see where pain might be coming from and assume the horse is being a **** and this can lead to the bullying and worse. I know because I have been a bit of a bully in the past. :(
Behaviour problems around hooves are very frustrating unless you can take a step back and drop your immediate agenda and think things through with the horses' opinion at the centre.
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This is very true, and also we feel almost licensed to push a bit harder if we have had an "all clear" from vet/dentist/saddle fitter etc., because the horse is clearly not in pain. As someone said to me the other day, how many human aches and pains - even to the extent of being bad enough to affect your day to day functioning - would show up on a medical examination? So, you have a sudden attack of sciatica because you've been sitting badly on an office chair (this never happens to me, obviously ;) ). Your GP checks you over, can't see anything wrong with you, and suggests you're just malingering to get out of work...
Vets can only tell you that they cannot *see* anything that would cause pain, not that there *is* nothing causing pain...

If the behaviour is previous good and is getting worse, there is a cause to be found. If a horse persists in objecting, despite you using a twitch, they're not taking the easy option to just to get out of something a little bothersome, they have an issue that we're not managing to detect.

I would suggest a trial and error approach - and I think LucyPriory's comment about the horse showing quite clearly and very fast that they were specifically objecting to nailing on is something to think about :)
 
I do agree they should never lose temper, but sometimes a whack the the flat of the rasp is a deterrent, it all depends on the horse, but having said that it is up to the owner to train the horse. Not the farrier.
I think the only farrier I saw over-react[normally very placid], was with a big WB that the newish owner was training to become a spoiled brat........ I think that was why he was annoyed, having previously been a perfectly normal horse, he now had one that decided she wanted to be "in control"
I took the easy route, and got my farrier to lift legs on my foal/yearling, but I had already trained her to allow herself to being handled all over.
 
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Faracat said:
It's a really good photo LP. I hope you don't mind me posting it as I hadn't realised it was yours (found it on google)?
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I have no problem with you using it here Faracat. :-)

I regularly deal with horses that are suffering from some degree of nail bind. And I regularly deal with horses that are sore somewhere, often not in their feet, but in a newly barefoot or a due to be deshod they might be sore in their feet and bodies.

I'm only 5ft 3 and not terribly fit. I've never found it necessary to get aggressive with a horse. I sometimes get a bit cross with the owners, but never the horse. I don't hit the owners either but I do make them go and sit out of the horse's space (usually the horse settles as soon as this is done).

I've dealt with rearers and double barrellers, spinners and biters. I have been known to do fronts one day and come back and do the hinds another. Sometimes all I do is teach the horse that there is nothing to be fretting about and come back another day. This is particularly so with rescues.

There are horses I have dealt with where it has just been a sheer lack of handling that is the issue, but mostly it's pain. In either case aggression is not the way forward.

Most of the horses I work with end up being snuffle bunnies even if they started out as really quite challenging. And this is a part of the job that I have to say I find particularly rewarding. Nothing beats horse cuddles.

The worst ones for me are the ones that have been so badly handled that they have zoned out. They may be quiet but they don't communicate and it's like working with a corpse. Horrible.

I have walked away from a handful, in each case it was the owner that was the problem, not the horse.
 
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