Italians want to ban Appleby

The Ities are fine ones to talk when they shoot hundreds of thousand song and migrating birds every year let alone the transport of horses for slaughter in their country. Let them put their own house in order before they even think about touching anything of ours.
 
Mithras said:
I spent 5 months working in Italy on my year out, running a livery yard. It was in the north, where welfare concerns are not so great
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I think you'd find, if you did your research, that the South is worse still. Have a look at this thread as an example.

However South/North divide aside, Italy as a whole has an attitude to animal welfare stinks in my experience. And I do agree that they have to be the shortest tempered nation on the planet and have indeed seen their animals bearing the brunt.

If the OP is indeed true then they want to start looking a lot closer to home.
 
Maesfen said:
The Ities are fine ones to talk when they shoot hundreds of thousand song and migrating birds every year let alone the transport of horses for slaughter in their country. Let them put their own house in order before they even think about touching anything of ours.
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Not all Itallians are blasting away, or eating horse pies, just like we are not all drowning horses all week.

Some Italians are against cruelty just as some of us are, and they have a right to comment, just like we do.
 
siennamum said:
Actually I agree with the protest. I've swum horses and they keep their heads above water, it is unnecessary and cruel to force their heads underwater.
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This YouTube video has made Appleby seem something which it not. Horses heads aren’t dunked under the water on purpose, there used to be a very old tradition to dunk the horses head under the water bring the horse luck, not the owner. This is barely heard of now, however was brought up recently when a horse died about 2 years ago. People claimed it was down to this tradition when in fact it may have just been a tragic accident. This man was then chased off by the gypsies and the police and was never found so where this story came from I don’t know. I am a gypsy and Appleby is like a holiday/family and friend reunion all at the same time. If people don’t like it so much then don’t come, it meant to be a happy stress free time which all can enjoy . Story like this and the gypsy’s ways being misunderstood cause people to be brain washed. There are good and bad amongst us all, horses are one of our most prized possessions and to cause them pain and suffering would be the last thing we would want to do. Appleby fair is hundreds of years old and if it was cruel to animals they would have band it ages ago.
 
maria and tom said:
This YouTube video has made Appleby seem something which it not. Horses heads aren’t dunked under the water on purpose, there used to be a very old tradition to dunk the horses head under the water bring the horse luck, not the owner. This is barely heard of now, however was brought up recently when a horse died about 2 years ago. People claimed it was down to this tradition when in fact it may have just been a tragic accident. This man was then chased off by the gypsies and the police and was never found so where this story came from I don’t know. I am a gypsy and Appleby is like a holiday/family and friend reunion all at the same time. If people don’t like it so much then don’t come, it meant to be a happy stress free time which all can enjoy . Story like this and the gypsy’s ways being misunderstood cause people to be brain washed. There are good and bad amongst us all, horses are one of our most prized possessions and to cause them pain and suffering would be the last thing we would want to do. Appleby fair is hundreds of years old and if it was cruel to animals they would have band it ages ago.
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Well I think that these videos suggest otherwise:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzJ0jc_dbGg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLTxrDSUsQA And using a rough rope as a bit?!

I also saw the video of the horse that drowned and in my view it was most certainly deliberate. I've been to Appleby and seen some awful cruelty, I'm not brainwashed, but I've seen things with my own eyes that I'm uncomfortable with. I grant you that not all gypsies are like this, in fact my dad breeds gypsy cobs and his stallion usually goes to Appleby every year pulling a living wagon, but it is undeniable that some awful things go on and I think it would be better if these things were tackled by the travelling community themselves rather than saying people just don't understand their ways or that it doesn't happen.
 
I live nearby and go down most days to have a nosey during the fair. That youtube video is completely out of context and all someone has done is taken a freeze frame of pictures with horses heads under water and portrayed Appleby as something it is not. If you go and watch for yourself you will see the horses heads go under for a couple of seconds as it is supposed to bring luck and it is a tradition. yes you get the wanna be gypsys and the know it alls who really dont know it all but there are welfare officers up there etc who sort it out. Their horses are treat like royalty and they think the world of them. If the issue here is solely with the way they bath their horses in the river then it needs to be looked at from both sides and not just somebody taking freeze framed photos.

I suppose getting on 2 year old thoroughbreds when their bones are all weak as they aren't fully grown and racing them round a track is acceptable is it? and poor ancient riding school ponies who get kicked and pulled around arenas for hours a day is acceptable as well is it? Dealers drugging up horses that are in pain and selling them is acceptable too?

Thats just a few examples and it happens all the time in our country. That is a way of life too for some people, some people wont think thats wrong yet they are crtizising a horse having a wash. Yes one died, but how many horses die out on the track or break down because they are over worked, and as a quality of life point of view id rather stick any of my horses heads underwater for a couple of seconds over ragging them round an arena for a couple of hours a day.
 
Pale Rider said:
I think that there are people all over Europe, the World if you like who are against animal cruelty, and a good thing too, I don't think that someone's nationality who speaks out should provoke an overly patriotic, little Englander approach.
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Exactly. When they say 'the Italians' do they mean all 60,000,000 of them. Too much Johnny foreigner bashing. Don't forget many Brits don't have a problem with live exports either.
 
neeny5 said:
I live nearby and go down most days to have a nosey during the fair. That youtube video is completely out of context and all someone has done is taken a freeze frame of pictures with horses heads under water and portrayed Appleby as something it is not. If you go and watch for yourself you will see the horses heads go under for a couple of seconds as it is supposed to bring luck and it is a tradition. yes you get the wanna be gypsys and the know it alls who really dont know it all but there are welfare officers up there etc who sort it out. Their horses are treat like royalty and they think the world of them. If the issue here is solely with the way they bath their horses in the river then it needs to be looked at from both sides and not just somebody taking freeze framed photos.

I suppose getting on 2 year old thoroughbreds when their bones are all weak as they aren't fully grown and racing them round a track is acceptable is it? and poor ancient riding school ponies who get kicked and pulled around arenas for hours a day is acceptable as well is it? Dealers drugging up horses that are in pain and selling them is acceptable too?

Thats just a few examples and it happens all the time in our country. That is a way of life too for some people, some people wont think thats wrong yet they are crtizising a horse having a wash. Yes one died, but how many horses die out on the track or break down because they are over worked, and as a quality of life point of view id rather stick any of my horses heads underwater for a couple of seconds over ragging them round an arena for a couple of hours a day.
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Of course other cruelty isn't acceptable either and no one is suggesting otherwise. Just because unpleasant things happen in other equestrian areas it doesn't mean that we should accept cruelty elsewhere, and the fact that their heads are forced underwater IS cruel - a horse has a deep survival instinct and to be forced underwater (and the process takes longer than 'a few seconds' and many try more than once to get them under,) must be terrifying for the horse. Of course the cruelty at Appleby isn't just about the bathing, there is far worse goes on there.

As for 'ragging around an arena' not everyone does this, but watch the flashing lane and there are some unpleasant sights there too, ancient ponies in a riding school, well they have at least managed to make old bones, unlike some of the Appleby ponies.
 
I agree that appleby should be banned.. but who is going to tell the gypsys to stop it?!

I mean.. we all know how they are reasonable people who abide and respect the law (lol)- but a little something tells me they wouldn't give a ***** what other people said or thought ;)
 
fburton said:
Has proper policing - not necessarily with just police - been tried? I'd have thought that would be the first logical step before banning.
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unfortunatly i've come across a few gypsies and when i challenged one about the horses next door who were in terrible condition (they settled on the land next to the yard) they replied 'haha what are you going to do? nothing the law or the council can do. we're gypsies' actual words.

and its true, they don't pay tax or have a house/ possesions they can take, they can pretty much do what they like.
 
charleysummer said:
unfortunatly i've come across a few gypsies and when i challenged one about the horses next door who were in terrible condition (they settled on the land next to the yard) they replied 'haha what are you going to do? nothing the law or the council can do. we're gypsies' actual words.
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I dare say there are also non-Gypsies with a similar lawless attitude. However... I was talking specifically about Appleby. Has robust policing been tried? (I don't know, that's why I am asking!)

and its true, they don't pay tax or have a house/ possesions they can take, they can pretty much do what they like.
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Now you are generalizing from your personal experience of a few gypsies to all gypsies. Are you really saying that all gypsies don't pay taxes?
 
I have no issue at all with people from other countries coming over here and sticking their noses in and pointing out what they believe as cruel, why shouldn’t they?, just because they have what some of us regard as cruel practices, it doesn’t mean there not welcome or wrong to come over and make their own minds up, more people should do it in fact, least they have come over and experienced it with their own eyes before criticising folk.
 
touchstone said:
Well I think that these videos suggest otherwise:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzJ0jc_dbGg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLTxrDSUsQA And using a rough rope as a bit?!

I also saw the video of the horse that drowned and in my view it was most certainly deliberate. I've been to Appleby and seen some awful cruelty, I'm not brainwashed, but I've seen things with my own eyes that I'm uncomfortable with. I grant you that not all gypsies are like this, in fact my dad breeds gypsy cobs and his stallion usually goes to Appleby every year pulling a living wagon, but it is undeniable that some awful things go on and I think it would be better if these things were tackled by the travelling community themselves rather than saying people just don't understand their ways or that it doesn't happen.
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There is no video of the horse that drowned only images, and if there is I’ve never hear heard or seen it. We are all entitled to your own opinion but I must stay I think yours is very wrong, to stay the man most certainly deliberately killed the horse. The man must have been a raving lunatic or mentally ill to kill a horse in front of thousands of on lookers including police and RSPCA whilst being captured on as you say on “video” and images. The horse didn’t even belong to that man but was said to be worth over 12,000 and the horse was around the age of 2, allot of money for such a young horse to just decide to kill, so I think extremely different to your view. You also say your dad drives to Appleby most years, well that is like a vegetarian eating meat!
 
Kenzo said:
I have no issue at all with people from other countries coming over here and sticking their noses in and pointing out what they believe as cruel, why shouldn’t they?, just because they have what some of us regard as cruel practices, it doesn’t mean there not welcome or wrong to come over and make their own minds up, more people should do it in fact, least they have come over and experienced it with their own eyes before criticising folk.
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Absolutely! Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and all the better if the opinion is well reasoned and based on first hand experience.
 
maria and tom said:
There is no video of the horse that drowned only images, and if there is I’ve never hear heard or seen it. We are all entitled to your own opinion but I must stay I think yours is very wrong, to stay the man most certainly deliberately killed the horse. The man must have been a raving lunatic or mentally ill to kill a horse in front of thousands of on lookers including police and RSPCA whilst being captured on as you say on “video” and images. The horse didn’t even belong to that man but was said to be worth over 12,000 and the horse was around the age of 2, allot of money for such a young horse to just decide to kill, so I think extremely different to your view. You also say your dad drives to Appleby most years, well that is like a vegetarian eating meat!
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Perhaps he didn't intentionally go out to kill the horse, but his deliberate actions most certainly did!

For you to say that the submersion is not on purpose is quite frankly wrong - there are loads of videos and pics to prove otherwise.

I couldn't give a toss how much the horse was worth, it didn't make any difference to the fact that it lost its life in an awful and unnecessary way.
 
Slightly away from the head dunking issue, but actually there were quite a few abandoned dead horses in the area after the fair this year. A friend of mine lives at one of the last staging post areas (about 20 miles from Fair Hill, and posted some *lovely* photos of a coloured horse lying rigid just on the common outside her home. Dunno who they thought was going to dispose of it.

The gypsies on the whole just don't treat the horses as 'we' would, and for the most part, I don't think they are very humane; what amazes me is what the horses put up with. Watched a fellow hammering a spotty pony up the main road past our village a couple of years ago - we were on road bikes and keeping up - as we went past, I asked how old it was - he was proud to reply 'two and just started pulling the cart yesterday' - he was *very* proud......

As for banning the fair - I really can't see it happening. Although not all the locals like it, it is a huge tourist draw, so between the Romanies and the local councils, unless something catastrophic happens one year, I think it will persist for a long, long time. For the most part it is well policed. That example of the pony being drowned a couple of years ago - contrary to some of the comments on here, the lad that did it was prosecuted and although his actions were deplorable, he didn't seem to realise what he was doing. He had come to the fair without a horse, had wanted to join in (despite never having handled a horse it would seem), so had bought a pony with the intention of selling it at the end of the fair, and taken it to the river to join in the washing. It was all very sad, but as I say, probably wasn't the only death that year, just a very prominent one.
 
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As another note to the drowning case - just read that the bloke in question was jailed for 28 days, plus another 28 for being repeatedly late to court.....

What I would ask is why he would be jailed, yet a drunk driver who killed a friend of a friend's driving ponies and put their owner in hospital when he ran into them got off with a £1000 fine........ what is the difference? I presume it's all to do with intent, but I'm guessing he didn't mean to drown the horse....would have lost the £100 he paid for it earlier in the day!
 
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