Itchy allergic dog parents. conventional/ holistic approach

[Vixen G]

Hi all,

So I am very conflicted with how to proceed with my dog who is an itchy allergic dog and would like to ask a few things:

1) Vaccinations, do you all still vaccinate your itchy dogs yearly for lepto and kennel cough to reduce chemical toxin overload? Do you titre/ vaccicheck for the 3 yearly vaccines?
Obviously I don't think over vaccinating is a good thing but I don't want to risk my dog to disease either!

2) Do you worm count before giving chemical wormers? Again to reduce chemical/ toxin overload which is also linked (as above) to unbalancing the gut microbiome or do you avoid chemical wormers altogether?

3) Diet, do most of you raw feed or feed a cooked diet and have you seen an improvement compared to feeding kibble?
Looking into feeding a commercial cooked diet ( not keen to feed raw but would try it as a last resort, concerned with parasite/pathogens). I've spoken to a couple of dog nutritionists and they have said to go raw due to it being a single protein and a lot less ingredients that wouldn't change so I would know exactly what is in the food.

My dog has gone the vets route and has been to the dermatologist. Currently on Apoquel ( would love to take her off this). I have done an elimination diet trial with the anallergenic Royal canine food which we think has made some improvement but still very itchy. So we think she has a food and environmental component . She was on cytopoint for a year but his didn't work for her.

Would love to see a holistic vet but insurance won't cover it due to it being a pre existing condition.

Many thanks

Vicky

 

[AmyMay]

Is it specifically itching/scratching or paw chewing?

 

[Vixen G]

Is it specifically itching/scratching or paw chewing?

itching, scratching bites/nibbles at certain areas at times. No paw licking or chewing

 

[AmyMay]

Has she been given a course of antibiotics?

What breed is she?

 

[Vixen G]

Has she been given a course of antibiotics?

What breed is she?

No antibiotics given. She is a Staffy x American Bulldog ( fawn coloured)

 

[AmyMay]

My little dog was a chronic paw chewer. A course of antibiotics and it stopped. Might be worth a go.

I do now feed Orijen.

 

[Jenko109]

Your post isnt clear what the diagnosis was? Have you had skin scrapes and biopsy done?

 

[Vixen G]

Your post isnt clear what the diagnosis was? Have you had skin scrapes and biopsy done?

Diagnosed with allergies, no skin scrapes or biopsy done. Have asked in the past for a skin scrape but still haven't done one

 

[sbloom]

Ours was on raw and the only biscuit he could have (Wafcol Salmon and Potato), a tiny does of steroids (about one tenth of the recommended dose) which for him worked better than Apoquel. He was a giant breed so Apoquel was £100 a month, 9 years ago, and pushed his lifetime insurance up to the same.

He had his jabs, I'd actually have to check with OH about wormers.

We had a "fluffy" guy look at his diet, he'd helped my OH with two before when vets couldn't get to the bottom of things. Every ingredient he'd dowsed was correct in terms of okay/not okay, he's just not dowsed for pea which IS in the vet blood tests. The man was a marvel but is sadly pretty much retired.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Seawater to cleanse the skin, oat milk to soothe it. I found that my eldest dog became dreadfully thin when raw fed, so I gave up on that.

 

[Nasicus]

Diagnosed with allergies, no skin scrapes or biopsy done. Have asked in the past for a skin scrape but still haven't done one

You really need to get these done to try figure out what you're dealing with. Dog could be allergic to anything, even something in the environment. I had one in the past that turned out to be allergic to a fungus found on fallen leaves for example. And our childhood dog was allergic to certain washing powders/detergents. If his bed was washed in the wrong one, you'd soon know about it!

 

[skinnydipper]

Hi all,

So I am very conflicted with how to proceed with my dog who is an itchy allergic dog and would like to ask a few things:

1) Vaccinations, do you all still vaccinate your itchy dogs yearly for lepto and kennel cough to reduce chemical toxin overload? Do you titre/ vaccicheck for the 3 yearly vaccines?
Obviously I don't think over vaccinating is a good thing but I don't want to risk my dog to disease either!

2) Do you worm count before giving chemical wormers? Again to reduce chemical/ toxin overload which is also linked (as above) to unbalancing the gut microbiome or do you avoid chemical wormers altogether?

3) Diet, do most of you raw feed or feed a cooked diet and have you seen an improvement compared to feeding kibble?
Looking into feeding a commercial cooked diet ( not keen to feed raw but would try it as a last resort, concerned with parasite/pathogens). I've spoken to a couple of dog nutritionists and they have said to go raw due to it being a single protein and a lot less ingredients that wouldn't change so I would know exactly what is in the food.

My dog has gone the vets route and has been to the dermatologist. Currently on Apoquel ( would love to take her off this). I have done an elimination diet trial with the anallergenic Royal canine food which we think has made some improvement but still very itchy. So we think she has a food and environmental component . She was on cytopoint for a year but his didn't work for her.

Would love to see a holistic vet but insurance won't cover it due to it being a pre existing condition.

Many thanks

Vicky

I've had two dogs with significant allergies. I found immunoglobulin antibody blood tests helpful. They can be tested for environmental and food allergens.

First dog, very itchy, once the blood tests gave an indication of what she was allergic to was able to be managed on kibble which did not contain any of the allergens.

Second dog was more difficult. He had lymphocytic plasmacytic ibd and many food allergies and was immunocompromised. I asked for an additional food allergy panel done at a different lab which tested for and identified allergens that the original one didn't test for.

The vet initially started him on Hills ZD which contains chicken but he was allergic to chicken and even though it was hydrolysed he reacted to it. This was changed to Purina HA. Finally I cooked for him. If I could have fed raw I would have but as he was immunocompromised it wasn't an option.

No further vaccinations for these two dogs and didn't do titres.

I have never used preventative flea treatment and use Wormcount.com to check for worms.

Current dog, who has no food allergies, is raw fed and I would recommend it. I use raw completes which comply with FEDIAF guidelines. If you go this route for a dog with allergies start with a novel protein and check that everything is single protein including bone and organ meat.

 

[druid]

A skin scrape is only going to identify mites. it won't help if it is an allergy (but it's useful to eliminate mites/parasites).

The RAST blood tests are poorly regarded by dermatologists - they have a high level of false positives. Intradermal testing is much more sensitive and accurate but requires a GA/heavy sedation and clipping large areas of coat to do the injections. It's also only done at refferal dermatologists generally.

Vaccines aren't going to influence the dog's atopy or allergic dermatitis.

Wormers aren't going to influence it either but I do support worm counting to reduce our useage of dewormers before we see resistance

If she didn't improve on Anallergenic a raw diet is unlikely to work any better (did you do the full 12 week trial, absolutely nothing but the food?). A low allergen food is still a good idea but a fish or duck based option would probably suffice (avoid the common allergens of beef/chicken/wheat) A summer suit might help, as will washing paws after walks if it is grass related.

 

[Vixen G]

I've had two dogs with significant allergies. I found immunoglobulin antibody blood tests helpful. They can be tested for environmental and food allergens.

First dog, very itchy, once the blood tests gave an indication of what she was allergic to was able to be managed on kibble which did not contain any of the allergens.

Second dog was more difficult. He had lymphocytic plasmacytic ibd and many food allergies and was immunocompromised. I asked for an additional food allergy panel done at a different lab which tested for and identified allergens that the original one didn't test for.

The vet initially started him on Hills ZD which contains chicken but he was allergic to chicken and even though it was hydrolysed he reacted to it. This was changed to Purina HA. Finally I cooked for him. If I could have fed raw I would have but as he was immunocompromised it wasn't an option.

No further vaccinations for these two dogs and didn't do titres.

I have never used preventative flea treatment and use Wormcount.com to check for worms.

Current dog, who has no food allergies, is raw fed and I would recommend it. I use raw completes which comply with FEDIAF guidelines. If you go this route for a dog with allergies start with a novel protein and check that everything is single protein including bone and organ meat.

Thank you, I was advised against allergy testing ( serology) as they said it was unreliable and would only recommend it if I wanted to try immunotherapy.

 

[Vixen G]

A skin scrape is only going to identify mites. it won't help if it is an allergy (but it's useful to eliminate mites/parasites).

The RAST blood tests are poorly regarded by dermatologists - they have a high level of false positives. Intradermal testing is much more sensitive and accurate but requires a GA/heavy sedation and clipping large areas of coat to do the injections. It's also only done at refferal dermatologists generally.

Vaccines aren't going to influence the dog's atopy or allergic dermatitis.

Wormers aren't going to influence it either but I do support worm counting to reduce our useage of dewormers before we see resistance

If she didn't improve on Anallergenic a raw diet is unlikely to work any better (did you do the full 12 week trial, absolutely nothing but the food?). A low allergen food is still a good idea but a fish or duck based option would probably suffice (avoid the common allergens of beef/chicken/wheat) A summer suit might help, as will washing paws after walks if it is grass related.

Thank you, yes she only had that food ( still on this food atm) so will probably need to change as it's been a year now. I did try her on a fish kibble before she went on the anallergenic food but that didn't help either. Not sure if she could still be reacting to the maize starch? I've had some improvement with her stools, no more ear infections and yeast on her feet have cleared up but I also use the CLX wipes everytime she comes home, weekly baths and once a week ear cleans which i think all help too.

 

[Vixen G]

Seawater to cleanse the skin, oat milk to soothe it. I found that my eldest dog became dreadfully thin when raw fed, so I ga

Ours was on raw and the only biscuit he could have (Wafcol Salmon and Potato), a tiny does of steroids (about one tenth of the recommended dose) which for him worked better than Apoquel. He was a giant breed so Apoquel was £100 a month, 9 years ago, and pushed his lifetime insurance up to the same.

He had his jabs, I'd actually have to check with OH about wormers.

We had a "fluffy" guy look at his diet, he'd helped my OH with two before when vets couldn't get to the bottom of things. Every ingredient he'd dowsed was correct in terms of okay/not okay, he's just not dowsed for pea which IS in the vet blood tests. The man was a marvel but is sadly pretty much retired.

Did he improve on raw or did the vet suggest changing him to the wafcol? Thank you

 

[sbloom]

Did he improve on raw or did the vet suggest changing him to the wafcol? Thank you

He was great on both, he had kibble most but not all mornings as he wanted, raw in the evening. He wouldn't really eat veg so the kibble helped balance his diet.

 

[druid]

Thank you, yes she only had that food ( still on this food atm) so will probably need to change as it's been a year now. I did try her on a fish kibble before she went on the anallergenic food but that didn't help either. Not sure if she could still be reacting to the maize starch? I've had some improvement with her stools, no more ear infections and yeast on her feet have cleared up but I also use the CLX wipes everytime she comes home, weekly baths and once a week ear cleans which i think all help too.

If anallergenic is all she can handle she can live on it indefinetely but you can also try some of the other hydrolyzed options or try introducing a mono protein diet and seeing if things stay the same or improve. With raw do watch that the organ element comes from the same species, I got caught out with that thinking it was duck but it had beef liver and kidney in the same mix when I checked the label - thank goodness I did before I fed it! Dermal support using omega oils in her food and some of the topical options like Dermalease or Allerderm spot ons to support the skin's lipid barrier can also be helpful. Redonyl is also useful in supporting normal skin function and might be worth a try.

It sounds like you're very on top of the environmental stuff already, my only other suggestion would be possibly adding an equafleece summer suit when outdoors to minimize exposure if you think she would wear it.

Itchy dogs are frustrating to try solve for owners and vets. And it must be pure misery for the dog when they're so itchy, at least she has some relief with the apoquel!

 

[Vixen G]

He was great on both, he had kibble most but not all mornings as he wanted, raw in the evening. He wouldn't really eat veg so the kibble helped balance his diet.

Thank you. Mine likes certaain veg but not others lol

If anallergenic is all she can handle she can live on it indefinetely but you can also try some of the other hydrolyzed options or try introducing a mono protein diet and seeing if things stay the same or improve. With raw do watch that the organ element comes from the same species, I got caught out with that thinking it was duck but it had beef liver and kidney in the same mix when I checked the label - thank goodness I did before I fed it! Dermal support using omega oils in her food and some of the topical options like Dermalease or Allerderm spot ons to support the skin's lipid barrier can also be helpful. Redonyl is also useful in supporting normal skin function and might be worth a try.

It sounds like you're very on top of the environmental stuff already, my only other suggestion would be possibly adding an equafleece summer suit when outdoors to minimize exposure if you think she would wear it.

Itchy dogs are frustrating to try solve for owners and vets. And it must be pure misery for the dog when they're so itchy, at least she has some relief with the apoquel!

She does well on the anallergenic but itching never went away. Thank you for the raw advice . I did use the allerderm spot ons but didn't think they made any difference ( might try them again though as I don't think I used it according to the guide) I'll have a look at dermalese too. She'd get the omega oils from the fish oil in her food wouldn't she? I'll have a look at the equafleece does it reflect the heat? Thank you

 

[druid]

She does well on the anallergenic but itching never went away. Thank you for the raw advice . I did use the allerderm spot ons but didn't think they made any difference ( might try them again though as I don't think I used it according to the guide) I'll have a look at dermalese too. She'd get the omega oils from the fish oil in her food wouldn't she? I'll have a look at the equafleece does it reflect the heat? Thank you

I found Dermalease worked better for my own than Allerderm but it might be a dog by dog case. The Redonyl has Omegas plus a neutraceutical called PEA which has decent studies show it improves skin function - my itchy dog lives it on it permenantly, it's a little oil filled capsule so easy to get them to take!

I don't think the summer suits are reflective but they can be wetted down to help with cooling in high temps

 

[skinnydipper]

If she didn't improve on Anallergenic a raw diet is unlikely to work any better

Up to 50% of dogs have an allergic reaction when fed a hydrolysed diet containing a protein they are allergic to.

The protein in the anallergenic diet is derived from chicken, turkey and duck feathers and the carbohydrate is corn starch.

The difference between the hydrolysed diet and the anallergenic diet is the size of the protein molecules, the anallergenic protein molecules are smaller and less likely to cause a reaction.

Do you know what % of dogs react to the anallergenic diet?

 

[skinnydipper]

If you go this route for a dog with allergies start with a novel protein and check that everything is single protein including bone and organ meat.

If you decide to try raw I would suggest starting with a novel protein, if possible something your dog has never eaten, for instance if your dog has never eaten venison or rabbit you could try that. Some raw food suppliers sell ostrich, zebra and (sorry folks) horse meat. Start with one protein and ensure it is single source including organ meat and bone. Don't feed anything else unless you can find natural treats of the same protein with nothing else added. If your dog gets worse then stop feeding this protein but if she has no reaction continue to feed only this protein for about 4 to 6 weeks before trying to add another.

Some raw food manufacturers such as Prodog Raw sell novel protein single source complete meals for elimination diets.

Personally I don't feed raw fish to my dog. It would have to have been frozen to a temperature low enough to kill fish parasites so I just give it a miss.

Be very choosy who you buy from, there are some companies that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

 

[Katieg123]

Owner of a dog with skin allergies also here! Luckily mine is doing really well with cytopoint once a month (however at 100£ per shot its enough to make me itchy!).

I also give him weekly baths with this

https://ch.virbac.com/files/live/sites/virbac-nz/files/pdf/product-profile/Allermyl%20PP.pdf

It seems to help a lot if nothing else than to sooth his skin!

 

[druid]

Up to 50% of dogs have an allergic reaction when fed a hydrolysed diet containing a protein they are allergic to.

The protein in the anallergenic diet is derived from chicken, turkey and duck feathers and the carbohydrate is corn starch.

The difference between the hydrolysed diet and the anallergenic diet is the size of the protein molecules, the anallergenic protein molecules are smaller and less likely to cause a reaction.

Do you know what % of dogs react to the anallergenic diet?

I'd love to see the research/study behind this if you don't mind sharing? The entire point of anallergenic is it's use in feeding trials. Personally I prefer to use a novel mono protein diet for feeding trials but for many dogs anallergenic works. I know that you're a raw feeding advocate and raw works great for many dogs but it doesn't suit every dog or every owner. Despite what most think about vets, I sell no dry food unless a client asks me to specifically order them a single bag of something. I'm also listed by several pro-raw sites as a a raw friendly vet and have many clients directed to me by holistic and raw feeding advocates. Vets aren't then enemy, we want your pet to be healthy and happy!

 

[PurBee]

My young gsd would itch and lick her nose at the same time, in the hours after feeding. I thought id try initial elimination diet, and started with grain elimination, which luckily did the trick. I feed her cooked tin real protein wet food, (large selection from zooplus) and grain-free dried food. She’s 12 now and doing really well.

 

[Nasicus]

If you decide to try raw I would suggest starting with a novel protein, if possible something your dog has never eaten, for instance if you dog has never eaten venison or rabbit you could try that. Some raw food suppliers sell ostrich, zebra and (sorry folks) horse meat. Start with one protein and ensure it is single source including organ meat and bone. Don't feed anything else unless you can find natural treats of the same protein with nothing else added. If your dog gets worse then stop feeding this protein but if she has no reaction continue to feed only this protein for about 4 to 6 weeks before trying to add another.

Interestingly, my allergy dog was tested for novel protein allergies he hadn't eaten before as part of testing, and came back as varying levels of allergic to them! Ostrich and Kangaroo being a couple lol
I have to ask though, if you're feeding this one novel protein only, where are the nutrients coming from? I mean the ones that are normally supplied by other components of the dogs diet. Would it not have any negative effects on the dogs overall health, be it from lack of missing ones or too much of the ones provided? Or maybe 4-6 weeks isn't enough time to cause issues there?
Is there a supplement of some sort that would be added during this time to account for that? Or literally just that single protein for up to 6 weeks?
Genuine curiosity here, perhaps @druid can shed some light on it for me?

 

[MurphysMinder]

When my GSD was around 6 months old (last October), she became really itchy, chewing her paws, constantly scratching etc, although she never broke the skin or even really damaged her coat. She was on the same food she'd been on with the breeder, Arden Grange large breed junior which is chicken and rice. When she got to about 8 months I felt I needed to get her checked by the vet so made an appointment, half expecting to come away with Apoquel and a prescription diet. However vet didn't want to do anything given her age, and I decided to swap onto a fish based food , Millies Wolfheart. Long story short although she still has the odd nibble and scratch it is manageable, and I have since introduced duck and lamb without a problem. All of which is a very long winded way of agreeing with Druid that vets don't immediately reach for the drugs and prescription diet.
While researching what could be causing her issues I ventured onto a fb group which was purely about natural treatments. Some good suggestions on the group but what shocked me was how against veterinary intervention they were. Posts and pictures of dogs who had scratched themselves red raw and on owners admission were miserable, often living their lives in elizabethan collars, and in a lot of cases wouldn't go to the vet because vet had prescribed apoquel or similar and owners had stopped giving it. Makes me really mad .

 

[skinnydipper]

I'd love to see the research/study behind this if you don't mind sharing? The entire point of anallergenic is it's use in feeding trials. Personally I prefer to use a novel mono protein diet for feeding trials but for many dogs anallergenic works. I know that you're a raw feeding advocate and raw works great for many dogs but it doesn't suit every dog or every owner. Despite what most think about vets, I sell no dry food unless a client asks me to specifically order them a single bag of something. I'm also listed by several pro-raw sites as a a raw friendly vet and have many clients directed to me by holistic and raw feeding advocates. Vets aren't then enemy, we want your pet to be healthy and happy!

You seem to have taken offence where none was intended and for that I apologise.
I was simply hoping you would have access to studies that I don't The only study that I saw mentioned for the anallergenic diet was very small, only 10 dogs, and I thought there must be more.

I always fed kibble, it is affordable and convenient and I would have continued to do so but for 2 concerns.

Edited to remove unnecessary explanation as to why I now feed raw.

I note that in the past you had another bitch with allergies and her vet suggested an anallergenic diet but you opted to try a grain free veg diet instead because you said the first ingredient of the anallergic diet is cornstarch which was one of the many things your dog was intolerant to. *

Do you now feel that the extensive hydrolysation of the ingredients of an anallergenic diet would mean it wouldn't be a problem to feed to a dog intolerant to cornstarch?

ETA * https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/royal-canin-anallergenic.733011/#post-13317690

 

[druid]

I'm not offended, I just have lots of derm patients and love any and all info I can use to try and help them! We have treatment plans ranging from very holistic options to the full Apoquel schedule - I try to be led by the owner and pet working with their ethos but the pet's welfare comes ahead of a wish not use chemicals/medication. Having suffered eczema as a child I appreciate how miserable itchy is!

I'm not sure which dog of mine you're talking about - possibly the little rescue who was eventually diagnosed with an autoimmune disease? She did have anallergenic eventually without issue but would slowly become sensitized to each novel protein after about a year, she was on an insect based food when we euthanised her at 16yo due to a bleeding splenic tumour. She was a puppy mill resuce so her beginnings and breeding were very much against a long healthy life sadly.

 

[druid]

Interestingly, my allergy dog was tested for novel protein allergies he hadn't eaten before as part of testing, and came back as varying levels of allergic to them! Ostrich and Kangaroo being a couple lol
I have to ask though, if you're feeding this one novel protein only, where are the nutrients coming from? I mean the ones that are normally supplied by other components of the dogs diet. Would it not have any negative effects on the dogs overall health, be it from lack of missing ones or too much of the ones provided? Or maybe 4-6 weeks isn't enough time to cause issues there?
Is there a supplement of some sort that would be added during this time to account for that? Or literally just that single protein for up to 6 weeks?
Genuine curiosity here, perhaps @druid can shed some light on it for me?

Blood tested? Likely false positives.

For feeding trials using raw I ask the owner to use a complete/balanced 80/10/10 mince with only one protein source and all bone/organ from that source also. I don't mind if the mix has veg or not, they're unlikely sources of allergens for the majority of dogs. For kibble we try to select a novel mono protein (duck, kangaroo it just depends what they've fed before!) and carefully check the ingredients for hidden sources like "poultry fat" or "gravy". Both of these are considered complete/balanced but for the raw dogs I recommend adding a new protein every 4 weeks while we work out what the dog can and can't tolerate. No treats during the trial (the hardest part!). I don't add supplements except omega oils.