Its difficult to know what to do, is PTS too extreme?

Miss L Toe

Miss L Toe

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I bought a pony cross four years ago, took it all steadily, I am used to TB racehorses, he looked similar, to cut a long story short, he kicked a horse which had to be put down, he is not a vicious horse just nervy, now he has started to behave badly again he is not happy but
how can I make him happy?
If he is not happy should I put him down?
There are lots of ins and outs but this.is the 2nd time I have considered his long term future.
 
That's not really enough information to advise either way IMO. He is your horse though and it is up to you.
 
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I aggree with Flame not enough imfo on your post to give advice on something so serious do you a a friend who you can talk it though with or a good horse vet that you know well enough to ask.
But in the final analysis he's your horse and there are far worse fates than being PTS .
 
Have you checked for ulcers? If not, try giving him ranitidine from Tesco, a whole packet of 12 a day in two lots. If that makes him better (typically within 48 hours) treat him for ulcers. Ranitidine is safe, legal and a recognised horse drug. In that quantity it will only damp down the symptoms, not cure the ulcers which needs a LOT more ranitidine or omeprazoel instead.
 
What a horrible situation for you - I wish you all the best with this.

In the meantime I am wondering on the circumstances of his previous 'nervy' bouts and what investigations have been made, what is he eating etc.
 
I don't think it is ulcers, due to his behaviour he has been on high fibre low sugar no cereal for six weeks with good hay, out most days and I try to keep him happy but he has had to move yards several times, and this worries him.
He gets Magnesium calmers and pre and probiotics, poop is good.
I can tell when he is happy, even when groomed, he is not letting his ding dong down, and when ridden, he is having to be niggled along most of the time.
His instructor had to give him a "battering" when she rode him because he absolutely napped and even reared,.
I don't want to have to hit him, I don't mind an odd sharp tap, but don't want a fight every time he wants to nap.
I have never had a horse who is not happy, it is mental not physical, he does not look like a nervy type. He has always been a follower not a leader.
 
As others have said - not enough information. You need to get to the root of why he is nervy.
Have you changed his routine? Has his feed changed? Is he better in the summer than the winter? What do you feed him? Is he out in a herd?

Have you tried giving him a calmer supplement?

In my experience nervous horses can improve with a very consistent routine and handling, but it really does depend why they are nervous. Do you know his history? Sorry but more questions than answers here. He could be intolerant to something you are feeding, he could have a history of abuse or poor handling. Are you nervous around him? Where is he in the herd pecking order?
How is he to ride?
 
Miss L Toe said:
I don't think it is ulcers, due to his behaviour he has been on high fibre low sugar no cereal for six weeks with good hay, out most days and I try to keep him happy but he has had to move yards several times, and this worries him.
He gets Magnesium calmers and pre and probiotics, poop is good.
I can tell when he is happy, even when groomed, he is not letting his ding dong down, and when ridden, he is having to be niggled along most of the time.
His instructor had to give him a "battering" when she rode him because he absolutely napped and even reared,.
I don't want to have to hit him, I don't mind an odd sharp tap, but don't want a fight every time he wants to nap.
I have never had a horse who is not happy, it is mental not physical, he does not look like a nervy type. He has always been a follower not a leader.
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If you have had to move yards several times I would say he is feeling insecure. Why not go back to doing lots of basic groundwork in hand with him. Leading him about and asking him to move for you and long reining him. It will be something different and he should get some confidence from you. Frankly I would give him several weeks of this until he is happy, as you say - you can recognise this instantly in him. Take the pressure off him for now. Some horses take months to settle in a new yard and with several changes it is unsurprising he is unhappy. Hope this helps.
 
Need more info really, do you think he is in pain, how old, kicking another horse can just be one of those things that happens, does he scare you, I am of the opinion that you eliminate any pain, back/saddle/teeth etc and then go back to basics, lots of one on one time, grooming, leading out in hand, short hacks, just gaining trust, and gradually build up, slow but sometimes very worth it, if no improvement in six to twelve months then possible is just a rogue. Keep us posted, and good luck
 
LucyPriory said:
What a horrible situation for you - I wish you all the best with this.

In the meantime I am wondering on the circumstances of his previous 'nervy' bouts and what investigations have been made, what is he eating etc.
Click to expand...
Previously, he has always had exercise every day or turnout never overworked, all steady work with a few jumping lessons and little shows. Gets plenty of hay type forage not much cereal, if any, not often "fresh", really nothing in diet to suggest too much sugar energy. Looks bursting with health. His diet is forage based, minimal cereal [gets a few oats if lacking energy for school work,but, this is not often.
I had lots of problems recently as he was not getting turnout, napping increased day on day, I moved,that really worried him,but at least he is out every day. I can't hack him,he is too nappy at present.
I asked two behaviourists for advice, but they had no suggestions, I am doing my best but he has "this" in him. I am very worried in case he kicks another horse, he really is hurting them even though barefoot. It always seems to happen when they are at a gateway rather than when playing in the top field, here there is running about and so on, but not this severe kick.
Recently the behaviourist took £50 to tell me he is worried, and it might take a year to settle him in, well I knew that,what I wanted was a solution! Also last episode, he had been in his yard for a year, I put that down partly to getting upset cos horses were changing day to day in the field, and his buddy sometimes buddied up with another horse if they were put out at same time.
I will try Ramitidine, but am doubtful, he shows no ulcer symptoms, most people would say he looks just fine.
He is very aware if I am unhappy, so this adds to stress on both sides.
 
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Once they have ulcers they cannot usually be cured without drugs, so your diet changes will help but probably not resolve the issue. The ranitidine test produces results in 24-48 hours, so only buy a few packets, because if he has ulcers he will need omeprazole.
 
YasandCrystal said:
If you have had to move yards several times I would say he is feeling insecure. Why not go back to doing lots of basic groundwork in hand with him. Leading him about and asking him to move for you and long reining him. It will be something different and he should get some confidence from you. Frankly I would give him several weeks of this until he is happy, as you say - you can recognise this instantly in him. Take the pressure off him for now. Some horses take months to settle in a new yard and with several changes it is unsurprising he is unhappy. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
Yes you are correct, I am "re-breaking" him, but on the lunge[double reins] he is resisting the bit,something he never did before [teeth recently rasped]
I feel he needs to do some work, hence instructor but I may lay off for a few weeks, it is costing a fortune to keep this large pet but I want him to get out of his stable every day, normally I would have sold him on and started on a youngster, but I can't sell him when he is like this, and previous attempts have been unsuccessful, and that was when he was co-operative!
It is all such a strain.
 
Flame_ said:
That's not really enough information to advise either way IMO. He is your horse though and it is up to you.
Click to expand...
I think he would be OK in perfect home, but his requirements are next to impossible to find and I know there are too many girls out there who think they know everything, but have never had a difficult horse. It is impossible to contemplate moving him again.
He gets mud fever, so needs stabled at night [loves his stable] and needs regular work and/or turnout to keep him fit, needs an arena and / or hacking in company, needs something to give him an interest, could compete, but at the moment won't load for fear of being moved again.
 
cptrayes said:
Once they have ulcers they cannot usually be cured without drugs, so your diet changes will help but probably not resolve the issue. The ranitidine test produces results in 24-48 hours, so only buy a few packets, because if he has ulcers he will need omeprazole.
Click to expand...
I haven't really changed his diet dramatically he has never had a lot of cereal or rich haylage.
 
Goldenstar said:
I aggree with Flame not enough imfo on your post to give advice on something so serious do you a a friend who you can talk it though with or a good horse vet that you know well enough to ask.
But in the final analysis he's your horse and there are far worse fates than being PTS .
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I get quite weepy even thinking about it, so can't see me doing it unless he kicks another one and it gets injured.
 
Right, these are just my thoughts, and they may come across as a bit blunt, but are meant to be helpful.

Firstly, I find your posts a bit vague in terms of what your horse is doing right or wrong, how you are keeping him etc. For example, you say something along the lines of him not getting much cereal to eat. You also say a horse was put to sleep after your horse kicked him - What I'm not clear on is whether the kick was a one-off, one of those things that happens when horses are playing or get too close to each other, or whether there was something about his behaviour that made you think it was more agressive and an ongoing problem.

I would sugggest greater clarity in how you communicate about him, but particularly in how you manage him. Horses like things to be black and white. They know where they are then.

I would also suggest you keep a brief daily record of everything: feed, stabling, turnout, work, attitude, worming, vaccinations, foot trimming/shoeing. Anything that happens to your horse. Over time, that will build up into a useful reference source that you can look back on and try to pick up on any patterns in his behaviour.

If you are serious about getting to the bottom of what's going on, you need to be totally consistent with management, and to try excluding/changing things one at a time to see what makes a difference.

I would be tempted to aim for:

- forage only diet (if he will hold condition on that), cutting out any hard feeds in case any of those are causing him problems

- as much turnout and suitable horsey companions as you feel safe

- Video a full lameness workup inhand, lunged and ridden, including all 3 gaits lunged and ridden

- Discuss with your vet and consider doing a bute trial for a couple of weeks, and then re-do the lameness workup and watch closely for any differences

There is an unfortunate tendency for people to label a horse as having attitude, or being naughty or awkward and to say that a problem is in the horse's mind rather than being physical. Realistically, the better informed a person is (especially specialist vets) the less they tend to "blame" the horse's behaviour.

Behaviour is usually an expression of how the horse is feeling, and will be massively influenced by pain.

Not knowing your horse, or the extent of the issues with him, I don't know what is appropriate with your horse. But realistically things often come down to how much money and time an owner is prepared to put into finding a problem, and treating it.

I personally think it is totally wrong to pass a problem horse onto a new home (particularly without full disclosure). Far better to put a horse to sleep than pass him on to an uncertain future or a future of more torment.

I hope you are able to get to the bottom of what's causing the problems.

Sarah
 
Ok, so going by what you've posted.

The horse doesn't do well in equine company, is nappy and is costing you a fortune with an instructor riding him.

So, give him individual turnout - and work on the napping, and ride him yourself.

Is this the horse that has had a significant amount of time off due to strangles?
 
flintfootfilly said:
Right, these are just my thoughts, and they may come across as a bit blunt, but are meant to be helpful.

Firstly, I find your posts a bit vague in terms of what your horse is doing right or wrong, how you are keeping him etc. For example, you say something along the lines of him not getting much cereal to eat. You also say a horse was put to sleep after your horse kicked him - What I'm not clear on is whether the kick was a one-off, one of those things that happens when horses are playing or get too close to each other, or whether there was something about his behaviour that made you think it was more agressive and an ongoing problem.

I would sugggest greater clarity in how you communicate about him, but particularly in how you manage him. Horses like things to be black and white. They know where they are then.

I would also suggest you keep a brief daily record of everything: feed, stabling, turnout, work, attitude, worming, vaccinations, foot trimming/shoeing. Anything that happens to your horse. Over time, that will build up into a useful reference source that you can look back on and try to pick up on any patterns in his behaviour.

If you are serious about getting to the bottom of what's going on, you need to be totally consistent with management, and to try excluding/changing things one at a time to see what makes a difference.

I would be tempted to aim for:

- forage only diet (if he will hold condition on that), cutting out any hard feeds in case any of those are causing him problems

- as much turnout and suitable horsey companions as you feel safe

- Video a full lameness workup inhand, lunged and ridden, including all 3 gaits lunged and ridden

- Discuss with your vet and consider doing a bute trial for a couple of weeks, and then re-do the lameness workup and watch closely for any differences

There is an unfortunate tendency for people to label a horse as having attitude, or being naughty or awkward and to say that a problem is in the horse's mind rather than being physical. Realistically, the better informed a person is (especially specialist vets) the less they tend to "blame" the horse's behaviour.

Behaviour is usually an expression of how the horse is feeling, and will be massively influenced by pain.

Not knowing your horse, or the extent of the issues with him, I don't know what is appropriate with your horse. But realistically things often come down to how much money and time an owner is prepared to put into finding a problem, and treating it.

I personally think it is totally wrong to pass a problem horse onto a new home (particularly without full disclosure). Far better to put a horse to sleep than pass him on to an uncertain future or a future of more torment.

I hope you are able to get to the bottom of what's causing the problems.

Sarah
Click to expand...
For what its worth, I think this is excellent advice.
Good luck.
 
Soo...
your horse kicked another at the gate, but is OK when out in the field. There are often problems if loats of horses are crowding a gateway - probably the biggest risk time for kicks, particularly if any are ever fed at the gate. Suggest taping the gateway off so they are less likely to crowd each other, not take food into the field (by all means treat once brought in as a reward for catching). Take care terms of order that horses are brought in and out. If needs must, try individual turnout. I wouldn't think of this as a PTS offence.

Nervy - probably due to move?

Not happy - what are symptoms?

You admit turnout had been restricted which caused problems, so you moved, which caused problems - plently of turnout, a routine, and time to settle in new yard will surely help these, again hardly PTS issue, more mitigating problems caused by management.

Needs niggled to move forwards - probably insecurity due to move? Did he previously work forwards? Check for pain?

Napping - causing instructor to give 'battering'. Suggest again insecurity due to move - and also suggest battering is not the best way to help the horse to settle into his new environment, and stop the nervyness!?

Doesn't drop sheath when groomed. Ah, OK, definately a PTS job then!
 
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flintfootfilly said:
Right, these are just my thoughts, and they may come across as a bit blunt, but are meant to be helpful.

Firstly, I find your posts a bit vague in terms of what your horse is doing right or wrong, how you are keeping him etc. For example, you say something along the lines of him not getting much cereal to eat. You also say a horse was put to sleep after your horse kicked him - What I'm not clear on is whether the kick was a one-off, one of those things that happens when horses are playing or get too close to each other, or whether there was something about his behaviour that made you think it was more agressive and an ongoing problem.

I would sugggest greater clarity in how you communicate about him, but particularly in how you manage him. Horses like things to be black and white. They know where they are then.

I would also suggest you keep a brief daily record of everything: feed, stabling, turnout, work, attitude, worming, vaccinations, foot trimming/shoeing. Anything that happens to your horse. Over time, that will build up into a useful reference source that you can look back on and try to pick up on any patterns in his behaviour.

If you are serious about getting to the bottom of what's going on, you need to be totally consistent with management, and to try excluding/changing things one at a time to see what makes a difference.

I would be tempted to aim for:

- forage only diet (if he will hold condition on that), cutting out any hard feeds in case any of those are causing him problems

- as much turnout and suitable horsey companions as you feel safe

- Video a full lameness workup inhand, lunged and ridden, including all 3 gaits lunged and ridden

- Discuss with your vet and consider doing a bute trial for a couple of weeks, and then re-do the lameness workup and watch closely for any differences

There is an unfortunate tendency for people to label a horse as having attitude, or being naughty or awkward and to say that a problem is in the horse's mind rather than being physical. Realistically, the better informed a person is (especially specialist vets) the less they tend to "blame" the horse's behaviour.

Behaviour is usually an expression of how the horse is feeling, and will be massively influenced by pain.

Not knowing your horse, or the extent of the issues with him, I don't know what is appropriate with your horse. But realistically things often come down to how much money and time an owner is prepared to put into finding a problem, and treating it.

I personally think it is totally wrong to pass a problem horse onto a new home (particularly without full disclosure). Far better to put a horse to sleep than pass him on to an uncertain future or a future of more torment.

I hope you are able to get to the bottom of what's causing the problems.

Sarah
Click to expand...

I also think this is good advice.
I'm also wondering if there is something more going on that you haven't mentioned. OP you always seem experienced in your previous posts that Ive read, but you seem at a loss at the moment.
Kx
 
Lucyad said:
Soo...
your horse kicked another at the gate, but is OK when out in the field. There are often problems if loats of horses are crowding a gateway - probably the biggest risk time for kicks, particularly if any are ever fed at the gate. Suggest taping the gateway off so they are less likely to crowd each other, not take food into the field (by all means treat once brought in as a reward for catching). Take care terms of order that horses are brought in and out. If needs must, try individual turnout. I wouldn't think of this as a PTS offence.

Nervy - probably due to move?

Not happy - what are symptoms?

You admit turnout had been restricted which caused problems, so you moved, which caused problems - plently of turnout, a routine, and time to settle in new yard will surely help these, again hardly PTS issue, more mitigating problems caused by management.

Needs niggled to move forwards - probably insecurity due to move? Did he previously work forwards?

napping - causing instructor to give 'battering'. Suggest again insecurity due to move - and also suggegst battering is not the best way to help the horse to setting in his new ennvironment, and stop the nervyness!

Doesn't drop sheath when groomed. Ah, OK, definately a PTS job then!
Click to expand...

Now can you see why I'm (rightly or wrongly - in which case I apologize to OP) smelling a rat; it's just so fuzzy from their normal style of posting. :confused:
 
amymay said:
Ok, so going by what you've posted.

The horse doesn't do well in equine company, is nappy and is costing you a fortune with an instructor riding him.

So, give him individual turnout - and work on the napping, and ride him yourself.

Is this the horse that has had a significant amount of time off due to strangles?
Click to expand...
This is the horse who had a bad time with strangles, he has not been a happy horse since, I gave him six months off, it would be too tedious to go in to all that has gone wrong, but I do know him very well: he seemed to have a good friendship with the horse he kicked the other day, on a previous occasion they were frolicking around in the arena, this time he came up to where the other one was standing and belted him, then ran off. The other horse stood by the gate so I brought him in.
The instructor is employed because I can't cope with him like this, napping and being so negative, she is very good rider, I am average, I don't want a fight every day, which is the way it was going. I may have a lesson myself soon, but he should come on faster with her, that is the idea. I am doing groundwork.
He is OK in a big field with other horses, it is when he is in a confined area, like the gate that he gets agitated. I don't want to keep him alone for the rest of his life, it is not what he wants.
I am going to work away with him quietly and hope he relaxes when out 24/7,
I have to fit in to the yard routine, and don't want to highlight my concerns or I will be asked to leave.
 
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Miss L Toe said:
The instructor is employed because I can't cope with him like this, napping and being so negative,
Click to expand...

And yet you say your plan was to sell him, and bring on a youngster?

Curious.

Good luck - hope you manage to resolve the situation (which I suspect is medical, not mental).
 
Lucyad said:
Soo...
your horse kicked another at the gate, but is OK when out in the field. There are often problems if loats of horses are crowding a gateway - probably the biggest risk time for kicks, particularly if any are ever fed at the gate. Suggest taping the gateway off so they are less likely to crowd each other, not take food into the field (by all means treat once brought in as a reward for catching). Take care terms of order that horses are brought in and out. If needs must, try individual turnout. I wouldn't think of this as a PTS offence.

Nervy - probably due to move?

Not happy - what are symptoms?

You admit turnout had been restricted which caused problems, so you moved, which caused problems - plently of turnout, a routine, and time to settle in new yard will surely help these, again hardly PTS issue, more mitigating problems caused by management.

Needs niggled to move forwards - probably insecurity due to move? Did he previously work forwards? Check for pain?

Napping - causing instructor to give 'battering'. Suggest again insecurity due to move - and also suggest battering is not the best way to help the horse to settle into his new environment, and stop the nervyness!?

Doesn't drop sheath when groomed. Ah, OK, definately a PTS job then!
Click to expand...

Yes, lots of good suggestions, the gateway is actually pretty big. I tried to train him to come in last, but he is always first, chases away the other keen one. No feeding in gateway.
He has always been a backward thinking type, but also everyone liked riding him in spite of his quirks, not so now, he has had a lot of bad things happen to him, but most horses would have just got on with it. I know he loves full on grooming and massage, but now he is not really relaxed enough to enjoy it.
I had left him to my instructor to hack out and cool down, unfortunately I was not there to help when he napped, so it became a full on crisis, she had to make him go forward, she only had a schooling whip and he was unmarked [skin], but the whole idea of re-training was to avoid incidents like this, we will start out with a hack, me on board, she on the ground this week. Roll on summer 24/7 out in field.
 
flintfootfilly said:
You also say a horse was put to sleep after your horse kicked him - What I'm not clear on is whether the kick was a one-off, one of those things that happens when horses are playing or get too close to each other, or whether there was something about his behaviour that made you think it was more agressive and an ongoing problem.

I would sugggest greater clarity in how you communicate about him, but particularly in how you manage him. Horses like things to be black and white. They know where they are then.

I would also suggest you keep a brief daily record of everything: feed, stabling, turnout, work, attitude, worming, vaccinations, foot trimming/shoeing. Anything that happens to your horse. Over time, that will build up into a useful reference source that you can look back on and try to pick up on any patterns in his behaviour.

If you are serious about getting to the bottom of what's going on, you need to be totally consistent with management, and to try excluding/changing things one at a time to see what makes a difference.

I would be tempted to aim for:

- forage only diet (if he will hold condition on that), cutting out any hard feeds in case any of those are causing him problems

- as much turnout and suitable horsey companions as you feel safe

- Video a full lameness workup inhand, lunged and ridden, including all 3 gaits lunged and ridden

- Discuss with your vet and consider doing a bute trial for a couple of weeks, and then re-do the lameness workup and watch closely for any differences

There is an unfortunate tendency for people to label a horse as having attitude, or being naughty or awkward and to say that a problem is in the horse's mind rather than being physical. Realistically, the better informed a person is (especially specialist vets) the less they tend to "blame" the horse's behaviour.

Behaviour is usually an expression of how the horse is feeling, and will be massively influenced by pain.

Not knowing your horse, or the extent of the issues with him, I don't know what is appropriate with your horse. But realistically things often come down to how much money and time an owner is prepared to put into finding a problem, and treating it.

I personally think it is totally wrong to pass a problem horse onto a new home (particularly without full disclosure). Far better to put a horse to sleep than pass him on to an uncertain future or a future of more torment.

I hope you are able to get to the bottom of what's causing the problems.

Sarah
Click to expand...
Thanks for that thoughtful posting, he kicked the other horse when it was put in to a small paddock, he chased it and belted it, even though he knew the horse, it was more a frenzy than a fun kick, soon after that he tried to reverse in to another horse by backing in and kicking as I was leading him past, both incidents indicated a nervy horse, no pain issues. He had another field incident around the same time, I took the other horse out as it had a small injury [not sure if caused by a kick]
I did get the vet out to see him [asked for a senior partner], he just dismissed any pain/saddle issue, [he felt I was fussing], he has never been lame, I massage him almost daily, and examine him for tight muscles, nothing, no spasms, he always indicates by pointing with his nose where he needs scratched,so is able to communicate on a basic level.
I have worked with hundreds of TB's, but they tend to be extrovert, a few of them [un-genuine ones] retain their poop, but the good ones always crap before race. My boy rarely poops when out on exercise, though he pooped three times and was licking and chewing when animal behaviourist led him out for a long walk [me on board as a passenger].
I realise my first post was minimalist, but I wanted to distil the evidence, now you can see,there are lots of tiny details to mention.
I took him in hand for a short walk today,he kept stopping [napping] and looking for scary things.
 
Circe said:
I'm also wondering if there is something more going on that you haven't mentioned. OP you always seem experienced in your previous posts that Ive read, but you seem at a loss at the moment.
Kx
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Yes, I am at a loss: mentally he has had a hard time, and all the little issues which surfaced when he was being broken in, and ridden away, have returned with a vengeance. I have not come across one horse so sensitive in so many ways, he has to be handled consistently, and often firmly ridden forwards, he is not as sharp as he was when first backed, but he is stronger and more experienced [and not in a good way].
Main thing this instructor says, is that I have reins too tight, whereas previous instructor asked me to take more contact [confused]. I am sticking with this lady as I think her riding style most resembles my own and this should cause less confusion.
He will make it very clear if he thinks he is asked to make too much effort, also will attempt to eject rider if she keeps on with demands, he has very firm views, and is not always amenable!
He used to enjoy his little learning sessions, but not now!
We had a mega mega problem loading him as every time he went in a trailer he got moved, it took three failed attempts before we reverted to a little known technique [pm's only] after a final three hour session [handler was very experienced]. I don't know if he will ever load again, I can't sell him, he won't move, but I am just as unhappy as he is.
 
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