I've been such an idiot

[Miss L Toe]

Arhhh
6.30-7.30 to do the racehorses and then normally leaves until returning at 3.00ish (half an hour before I arrive), to make sure everything's okay.
I was beyond mad at this point, I tried calling the manager three times and with no luck. You see, she's supposed to start work at 6.30 and finish at 5.30. During this time she's supposed to help out at the yard and organise the various comings and goings, but it turns out these two organise most of the routine visits anyway
She should be there at a regular time, in racing we work 45 hours per week.
6.30 to 1.00 and 3.30 to 6.00 approx, every Saturday morning. One saturday and one sunday per fortnight.
I am not clear who exercised the racehorses, the manager can't ride six, three would be more like it, so first lot at 7.30 , breakfast for staff, then second lot 9.30 to 1045 and third lot 11.15 to 12.30. I don't really understand what you are doing with the racehorses, are you paying BHA wages or what. If pointers, they would be finishing their season and will be out for the summer.

 

[Lobelia_Overhill]

Not 100% sure, but I think what she's doing is regarded as fraud, and you can take her to court over it...

I worked with a woman who was doing the exact same thing, she'd come in first thing, clock on, leave, come back and clock off, and at the end of the week pick up wages for a 39 hour week when she'd not even worked 2 hours. I reported her to the manager who decided to ignore it, she found out that I'd reported her, and started bullying me in a very obvious manner [in front of the manager and the other staff], something else the manager chose to ignore. I phoned a solicitor who specialised in employment law and I'm pretty sure he said that what she was doing was fraud and she could end up going to jail if her employer pressed charges...

YMMV

 

[NOISYGIRL]

I'm sorry I'd have gone back about 2.30 and waited and I'd get there before her in the mornings, is there anywhere discreat you can watch from where she won't see you ? thats disgusting, but I'd have to watch and obtain the evidence myself before following through on any action, like the sack ! I think it'd be better than hearing it 2nd hand, you need to catch her out

good luck

 

[Ladylina83]

I had a funny feeling about this when you first posted wanting 5 stable hands ! She didn't sound like the type to chip in and to be honest how could she if she wasn't there ? ... I can feel you may learn from this !

I'd say she could be done for gross misconduct, you just need to document everything if you are going to do it right.

Or ..now others may shoot me down aout this but ... you could sit her down have a chat about what happened explain that you expected more and see what she says, if you are not happy with come back ( I imagine she will say that she thought it was ok or what is normal) say that you don't feel it is working out pay her her notice and offer her a referance. I'd take it if I was in that situation ... not that I would take the pee like that ... however I am supposed to be working now but I am writing to you! ( but I am only just having lunch !) I had a job in Sales for a while and was rubbish at it I knew this and it really got me down + the company obviously didn't get any benefit from me being there - This kind of thing happened to me at the time I was actually grateful They were a large company with a HR team, now you don't seem to be doing this long so I doubt you have employed her for long, its just a thought

 

[Archie4gold]

I have to say that you have compromised your position in this matter. If your manager or any of her friends/legal advisors read this forum she will be able to use this thread as evidence of constructive dismissal. What ever wrong doing has happened she has the right to have the matter considered in an unbiased confidential way. You have breached her rights on all fronts by nature and content of this thread.

 

[Ladylina83]

I have to say that you have compromised your position in this matter. If your manager or any of her friends/legal advisors read this forum she will be able to use this thread as evidence of constructive dismissal. What ever wrong doing has happened she has the right to have the matter considered in an unbiased confidential way. You have breached her rights on all fronts by nature and content of this thread.

Let's hope Archie isn't her mate ... I think you can ask HHO mods to delete the thread now !

 

[EAST KENT]

Easy..you don`t have enough work for her and you have "to let her go",obviously that is true.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I have to say that you have compromised your position in this matter. If your manager or any of her friends/legal advisors read this forum she will be able to use this thread as evidence of constructive dismissal. What ever wrong doing has happened she has the right to have the matter considered in an unbiased confidential way. You have breached her rights on all fronts by nature and content of this thread.

I don't think the OP has because she is not identifiable. The scenario described here could be from any number of yards in the UK. Actually, there might be a few YM's reading this and thinking that it could be referring to them.
Just imagine, there might suddenly be more shiny yards and shiny horses all over the country....

 

[madlady]

I have to say that you have compromised your position in this matter. If your manager or any of her friends/legal advisors read this forum she will be able to use this thread as evidence of constructive dismissal. What ever wrong doing has happened she has the right to have the matter considered in an unbiased confidential way. You have breached her rights on all fronts by nature and content of this thread.

I don't think that applies as no names have been mentioned - or even locations.

OP, she has comitted gross misconduct and fraud, both of which can result in immediate dismissal.

If that is the route that you choose though then you should put it in writing, explaining fully, sign it yourself and get her to sign as well.

 

[smellsofhorse]

Lazy cow!
Sack her!
But do it the proper way with disiplinary hearing etc.

 

[Horsey_dreams]

i think everyone is being a little harsh on the manager, afterall we only have one side of the story here. There could be any reason for it, maybe her hours are not clear, maybe as the manager she decided to work less hours on the saturday and more another day as her time is more valuable there. Fortunately employment laws exist to protect both the employer and the employee. Advice should come from an employment lawyer, not an online forum full of people who judge after hearing one side...

 

[Rainbowrider]

Apart from anythng:

I could NEVER work an 11 hour day!! Is it even legal? When is she supposed to have a life / own horses / kids? / relationship / tidy house / fun, and get some sleep in 24 hours???

 

[DragonSlayer]

Apart from anythng:

I could NEVER work an 11 hour day!! Is it even legal? When is she supposed to have a life / own horses / kids? / relationship / tidy house / fun, and get some sleep in 24 hours???

Doesn't matter if it's 8 hours or 11 hours, the OP said she paid a full days wage...so if the manager is actually getting 11 hours worth of money, she should in fact....be on site.

 

[Rainbowrider]

Completly agree DS. I was not stating my opinion of the situation, just saying I would struggle with an 11 hour day.

 

[Lucy B]

Thanks to everyone for your opinions on this matter. I have now thankfully sorted it out with the help of a friend who is a lawyer. She has been fired but in a completely lawful manner with all the correct procedures.

I have drawn up very clear documents for the other two employees, and I have promoted one of them to be the site manager.

It turns out the ex-managers contract had specified working hours, and she was breaking the contract by not being on site - I found this in our health and safety policy, since if there was a fire the manager has to be on site to help get the horses out and manage all proceedings or if a horse/rider was injured the manager is responsible for their health until more help arrives during her working hours (which were clearly specified there).

Well at least next time I'll be much more careful with people, and I will never make that sort of mistake with contracts again

Thanks eveyone

 

[Amaranta]

Apart from anythng:

I could NEVER work an 11 hour day!! Is it even legal? When is she supposed to have a life / own horses / kids? / relationship / tidy house / fun, and get some sleep in 24 hours???

I have to agree with this, the hours seem unreasonably long to me too

 

[misst]

I think it depends. Nurses and other services often work 12 hour shifts nowadays. I do 4 short shift or 2 x 12 hour shifts. (I work part time) but plenty of my colleagues work 3 x 12 hour shifts a week which they love. Full time hours (almost - nurses FT is 37.5hrs a week) with 4 days per week free. So hard work when you do it but not too bad for over half the week off. So did the employee work 5 days per week or a 40hr week? 11 hour shifts may not look so bad then.

 

[PapaFrita]

Thanks to everyone for your opinions on this matter. I have now thankfully sorted it out with the help of a friend who is a lawyer. She has been fired but in a completely lawful manner with all the correct procedures.

I have drawn up very clear documents for the other two employees, and I have promoted one of them to be the site manager.

It turns out the ex-managers contract had specified working hours, and she was breaking the contract by not being on site - I found this in our health and safety policy, since if there was a fire the manager has to be on site to help get the horses out and manage all proceedings or if a horse/rider was injured the manager is responsible for their health until more help arrives during her working hours (which were clearly specified there).

Well at least next time I'll be much more careful with people, and I will never make that sort of mistake with contracts again

Thanks eveyone

I'm glad you've managed to sort it out

 

[Lucy B]

Just to clarify - she only worked 5 days a week - she got Sunday and Monday off. Also she has to sort out the horses in the morning and in the evening and arrange appointments etc, but some days relatively little goes on, so the work is mostly just planning for busier days, getting to know the liveries, or catching up if she was behind on other bits of work. Plus, she got more holidays than average so I don't think it was unreasonable for her to work these hours.

PS I paid her for the full 11 hours, and some of her holidays were paid holidays too.

 

[brown tack]

Most yards I've worked at are 10 hours days plus an extra hour or two for night checks.

Only one day off a week too

Are you going to try and claim back some back pay. As she has obs been over paid for her non working hours

 

[Sanolly]

Completly agree DS. I was not stating my opinion of the situation, just saying I would struggle with an 11 hour day.

You should be a WP in a competition yard! start 7.30, finish anywhere between 6 and 8pm on a 6 day week!

OP glad you got the situation sorted - can I come and work for you! LOL

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Apart from anythng:

I could NEVER work an 11 hour day!! Is it even legal? When is she supposed to have a life / own horses / kids? / relationship / tidy house / fun, and get some sleep in 24 hours???

Many of us do. I worked 12 hour night shifts for many years. Some weeks OH works 14 hr days at the office and then comes home continues to work in his study. Many professions require more than a comfortable 9-5 day.

 

[hairycob]

Presumably she has time for meal breaks that do not count as part of the working day but surely the Working Time Directive - 48 hours average - applies to yards. I'm sure a lot of employers in the equine industry take the p though.

 

[NR99]

OP - glad you got it sorted and by the sounds of it in the correct manner.

I was cringing as I was reading some of the suggestions, "if you don't want to sack make them redundant", really poor advice which is a pathway straight to tribunal.

Do take sometime to look at the WTR regarding 48 hour weeks, they will apply to you and if some of your staff are under 18 they are even more limited. I don't think Minimum Pay will apply to you as it sounds like you pay well, but it could be worth checking to make sure.

Good luck, you're on a massive learning curve but as someone said above the ACAS site can be very useful for beginner employers.

 

[mystiandsunny]

Presumably she has time for meal breaks that do not count as part of the working day but surely the Working Time Directive - 48 hours average - applies to yards. I'm sure a lot of employers in the equine industry take the p though.

My OH works 6am-5.30pm, five days a week in a shop as assistant manager. He, like the manager in this thread, gets paid for all that time and his breaks are paid within that. It is a long day, but the working time directive can be opted out of, and the extra hours make his salary seem half decent, in a fairly low paying job.

I've opted out of the 48hrs too in my job. Not as long hours as his, but a ten hour day is not unusual.

 

[FairyLights]

which is a real problem. 48 hours should be long enough. The more people who opt out the worse it gets. People shouldnt be allowed to opt out. We all need lives and not slave labour.

 

[hairycob]

I understand the pressures to opt out, especially when the hourly rate is really low. That's what I meant about employers taking the p. Actually it's not just in low paid industries. I used to work for one of the major Management Consultancies & if you didn't opt out you didn't get on. But I sincerely believe that if someone is having to work very long hours week in week out they are going to be too tired to be effective either at work or as a social human being (which could explain some of the crazier suggestions the consultancies come up with). I regularly work 11 hour days but not every day these days. I know far too many employers (not saying this about OP as I know nothing about her, just people I know personally) who say they can't afford more than min wage & pay themselves a luxurious salary whilst also paying decent money to family members who don't pull their weight & to me that stinks. And don't even get me on to the subject of executive pay in large companies!