I've got a planter!

Iv just been through this with a 4 yr old just backed horse brought over from Ireland and it wasnt nice. He was a big horse 17.2 and knocked my confidence totally as he planted and then went backwards into anything in the way, ditches, barbed wire, walls etc and threatenned to rear when you put any pressure on. I ended up getting off to stop him shredding his legs on the wire but for us, that was my downfall. Tried turning tight circles, worked in the school but wasnt safe to out hacking as he'd have a paddy, run backwards or scrabble on the slippy road surfaces and I just couldnt get him to circle safely. I had no one suitable to hack with, we tried but he just walked to fast to follow, I had no where safe to hack and no suitable circular routes, so we were turning back on ourselves. Saying that on the occasion I did ride in company he napped away from the nanny horse and felt like he was going to bog off home. I got pro help in and boy did he try it on, he was made to go backwards, driven forward etc but he still did it. I was told he needed a job, he was a serious comp horse and needed someone used to big young horses, so sadly I sold him to a competition yard, they knew of his issues and they turned him around, had a big battle with him, basically whalloped him and he never did it again and sold him to a competition home who Im told love him to bits. I dealt with a similar horse years ago but this boy was just so big and I dont do rearing and I admit he scared me. Since then I have bought another horse and the first thing I did was move him to somewhere I have people to ride with and somewhere safe to ride. I felt so guilty I had failed the big lad. Good luck with your horse, hes lovely.
 
cptrayes said:
Sounds like I definitely need to take a book next time :) !

I did sit a warmblood out for forty minutes once, I'm sure I can do it again.

He definitely wasn't scared, is so easy to tell when he is. It was sheer obstinacy at not wanting to leave home.
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I've had a horse that did similar. I took to hacking with a book in my pocket. He used to plant when he saw bogie monsters and turned into 16.2hh rock formation. He did grow out of it, but we also worked on changing his reatction to monsters from 'plant' to 'forwards' with minor shies etc. We decided a leap forwards or suddenly shooting into canter for a few strides was preferable to standing still for 10 min.
 
I've had one like that in the past. Louby! This one isn't dangerous at all, he just isn't going to move. He's such a sweet boy I'm not going to beat him into it, I'm going to try waiting him out, and I think I've found someone to come and ride my other horse with me if that doesn't work.
 
Festive_Felicitations said:
I've had a horse that did similar. I took to hacking with a book in my pocket. He used to plant when he saw bogie monsters and turned into 16.2hh rock formation. He did grow out of it, but we also worked on changing his reatction to monsters from 'plant' to 'forwards' with minor shies etc. We decided a leap forwards or suddenly shooting into canter for a few strides was preferable to standing still for 10 min.
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I can cope with monsters but he has almost lost his fear of most things. There were no monsters at the three places he did it yesterday, he wasn't looking at anything in particular, he just would not go any further away from home. He was fine on the way back. There's a surprise, not :)
 
cptrayes said:
I can cope with monsters but he has almost lost his fear of most things. There were no monsters at the three places he did it yesterday, he wasn't looking at anything in particular, he just would not go any further away from home. He was fine on the way back. There's a surprise, not :)
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shutting down is a sign of fear

I would turn him away and when I bring him back in I would hop off each time he plants-it is positive and non confrontational
 
twiggy2 said:
shutting down is a sign of fear

I would turn him away and when I bring him back in I would hop off each time he plants-it is positive and non confrontational
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He is very open about showing fear. There was no fear that I could identify in the way he planted yesterday, neither did he shut down. it appeared to be pure napping not to go any further from home than he already was. He has previously planted with fear, which is a rigid, frozen posture staring at what is upsetting him. That only needs him to be given time to look at whatever it is, and then he will go on. This plant was totally different, relaxed, and passively absolutely defiant.

Can I ask the people who would turn him away why they recommend that when in every respect except yesterday's new problem, he is improving with every passing day?
 
I think in this country it can be expected to turn youngsters away, I seem to remember you posting about how unusual it is in other parts of the world, traditionally we bred hunter types who probably did benefit from being backed at 3 or 4, turned away over the winter while the older horses hunted, then brought back ready to hunt in the autumn, not sure it applies so much to more tb bred types.
I prefer the idea of a week off here and there to take stock, not long enough to lose any muscle just gain a little freshness, have time to rest and be keen to get back on with work, I think it is a very useful part of the training process as it does mean a few days off through injury, bad weather or rider going away is normal and does not require the breaking process to start all over again or the horse failing to cope with a break later in life.
I regularly give all of mine a week here or there and they usually really benefit and even the youngest have been easy to get back on seeming to be more interested in moving on.

I wouldn't turn yours away for any length of time he is immature but needs to continue to build up physically, I am not sure he will if turned away fully, it is not as if he is weak in the true sense, he sounds clever and probably senses that the roads are not a safe environment to have a battle of wills, testing the boundaries now he is feeling fit and well.
 
That's very much my interpretation of his behaviour BP, he's finding his own strength now and is confident in his new home and beginning to test boundaries.

He does get several days in a row off, and will next week, for example. He doesn't work hard, half an hour max on the arena, and what should be a thirty five minute hack :) And he has at least two days out of seven without work, and never works more than three days in a row, more often only two.

Yes, it is only this country that has any 'norm' of turning away three and four year olds, as far as I can tell.
 
Oh I feel your pain. I had one of these. It is the most frustrating thing ever, especially as they are not scared. I tired it all. Whip Whop, plastic bottle with pebbles in, schooling whip with carrier bag attached, sitting it out. ( 3 hours once sat in the middle of a grass field that was been grown for Wimbledon) If I turned his head towards my toe, he would touch it and stand like that, for ever.................. It was always about trying to get forward motion. Smacking with a whip made no difference, Growling is fairly good, until after 3 hours of sitting there it turns into something a little more. %$~~+(*&& !!! However, what I did find useful was, getting off, leading a few steps and getting back on again, and for some reason the monster would then just go. I don't know why, he just did. I tried to ride out with very forward going ponio's, and never ever, with anything else that would nap. Even now I won't go out with a napper, just in case. He grew out of it after about three months. But it would drive me to tears and many times I could be heard pleading with this pony to move. Lol. It was worth it in the end thou.
 
He is hardly over worked, have you tried taking him out after schooling, just a stretch once he has got a little tired sometimes mixing it up can help even though you will probably not be able to do a loop, my nervy hacking alone horse is going further each time, still turning back to come home, he is not nappy as such just gets scared of everything and roots to the spot rather than going forward, venturing further each time seems to be helping, although I am just about to go out and may be proved wrong depending on how he is feeling today, sitting them out is not always easy if there is traffic around.
 
Loved the story about the horse responding to the hunting horn ring tone!

We train Highlands and have someone who can recognise the body language walking behind with a lunging whip. The whip never makes contact and a flick at the same time the pony even thinks of stopping blocks any thoughts of planting or hesitating. The signal is quite clear and the leg aid soon takes priority.

Could it be that the horse simply does not understand? That sounds naive but it is the answer to many training problems. Go back and teach that voice commands must be obeyed with lunging and long reining, then try combining voice with aids when ridden. I also agree to making planting less comfortable for the horse than walking on -- but not so uncomfortable that escape behaviour is the result.

In short, "walk on" means just that. Certainly, doing nothing is the way some animals cope with fear. It is also how they sometimes cope with uncertainly as they don't know what they should do next. First the trigger, then the action. There is no choice in the matter so no indecision.
 
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TheCurlyPony said:
Oh I feel your pain. I had one of these. It is the most frustrating thing ever, especially as they are not scared. I tired it all. Whip Whop, plastic bottle with pebbles in, schooling whip with carrier bag attached, sitting it out. ( 3 hours once sat in the middle of a grass field that was been grown for Wimbledon) If I turned his head towards my toe, he would touch it and stand like that, for ever.................. It was always about trying to get forward motion. Smacking with a whip made no difference, Growling is fairly good, until after 3 hours of sitting there it turns into something a little more. %$~~+(*&& !!! However, what I did find useful was, getting off, leading a few steps and getting back on again, and for some reason the monster would then just go. I don't know why, he just did. I tried to ride out with very forward going ponio's, and never ever, with anything else that would nap. Even now I won't go out with a napper, just in case. He grew out of it after about three months. But it would drive me to tears and many times I could be heard pleading with this pony to move. Lol. It was worth it in the end thou.
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You're the second person who this approach has worked with. I think I'm going to try it, it plays into all my strengths and his weaknesses :) thankfully, I have plenty of banks on the roadside, because he's not a small boy :)
 
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TheCurlyPony said:
Oh Ps. Your horse is stunning
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Oh thank you :) have another photo, though he's a lot bigger than this now :)

image.jpeg
 
be positive said:
He is hardly over worked, have you tried taking him out after schooling, just a stretch once he has got a little tired sometimes mixing it up can help even though you will probably not be able to do a loop, my nervy hacking alone horse is going further each time, still turning back to come home, he is not nappy as such just gets scared of everything and roots to the spot rather than going forward, venturing further each time seems to be helping, although I am just about to go out and may be proved wrong depending on how he is feeling today, sitting them out is not always easy if there is traffic around.
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It's a good idea. I would need to limit the schooling session, because I live on a very steep hill and it's a lot of work just to walk up and down it, but that can be managed.
 
Dry Rot said:
Loved the story about the horse responding to the hunting horn ring tone!

We train Highlands and have someone who can recognise the body language walking behind with a lunging whip. The whip never makes contact and a flick at the same time the pony even thinks of stopping blocks any thoughts of planting or hesitating. The signal is quite clear and the leg aid soon takes priority.

Could it be that the horse simply does not understand? That sounds naive but it is the answer to many training problems. Go back and teach that voice commands must be obeyed with lunging and long reining, then try combining voice with aids when ridden. I also agree to making planting less comfortable for the horse than walking on -- but not so uncomfortable that escape behaviour is the result.

In short, "walk on" means just that. Certainly, doing nothing is the way some animals cope with fear. It is also how they sometimes cope with uncertainly as they don't know what they should do next. First the trigger, then the action. There is no choice in the matter so no indecision.
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Thanks for posting DR. There's no question of him not understanding. He will walk on as soon as I get off, he lunges perfectly in walk trot and canter and at present I still use voice commands in addition to leg aids when I am schooling. He understood, he just refused. Toad :) (apologies to toads, I'm sure some of you are very nice)
 
cptrayes said:
Can I ask the people who would turn him away why they recommend that when in every respect except yesterday's new problem, he is improving with every passing day?
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I suggested turning him away because of what you have posted about him on previous threads. You were concerned with his general lack of co ordination and body awareness.

If he can't organise his own limbs when he is not under saddle, then it seems to be a tall order to ask him to do it when carrying a rider. A period of time out at grass might see him grow up both mentally and physically, and he should find ridden work much easier.

It was, however, only a suggestion as I have never seen this horse, and was only going on how you had previously described him. If the planting is purely a behavioural thing, then roughing him off could well be counterproductive, as it needs working through.

If you feel that he is improving, then keeping him in low level work may be the way to go.

It is not always easy to decide which is the best course of action :).
 
Thanks TP, that's good reasoning. At the moment I feel he has more to lose by being turned away, and I cope with his issues by keeping work sessions short and easy. I will try to keep an open mind on it though.
 
An update.


Ooh that went well :)

I managed to dodge the 'showers' - actually torrential rain - and tried for a short hack. He walked away from the block but he would not leave the yard. I wiggled, niggled and tickled him in various places with the whip. He got a bit irritated, but he would not budge.

I got off, walked him out of the gate and got back on. Same again.

I got off and walked him twenty five yards and got back on again. Same again.

I got off and walked him down to a gateway set back from the road and got back on again. He walked a couple of paces back to the road and I managed to keep him going left instead of turning right for home.

He ground to a halt after five yards. I wiggled, niggled and irritated him, and just as I was about to get off he walked on down the hill. He thought about stopping again but as soon as I made it clear that the demented elf on his back would be irritating him again, he carried on.

So I stopped him and started him a few times to make sure I really had it cracked, then asked him to trot twice, then brought him home.

A very successful outing, so thank you to everyone for your help, and particularly the people who told me about getting off and leading a really short distance before you remount. I really didn't want to fall out with this sweet natured (normally!) horse, and it looks as though it won't be necessary :)

He will have two days off now to reflect on what a good boy he's been (or on how come he's been outwitted!)
 
Oh damn! I'm not really into those emaciated types and prefer something with a bit of flesh on it's bones but had hoped to pick up a bargain on Project Horses as he IS rather pretty …:D But well done you! Glad it all worked out!
 
Dry Rot said:
Oh damn! I'm not really into those emaciated types and prefer something with a bit of flesh on it's bones but had hoped to pick up a bargain on Project Horses as he IS rather pretty …:D But well done you! Glad it all worked out!
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Hands orf my cow pony :D

He comes from muscle bound show stock on dad's side, and he's chunking up nicely. He also looks on target for over sixteen two, so he's going to be quite an eyefull in another year or two.

Worth a few hassles to train, I think, I've always wanted a red and white horse :)

Gotta love this forum sometimes. I wouldn't ever have thought of repeatedly getting off and back on again. It doesn't sound very sensible at all.
 
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Glad I didn't have to read through all those pages . A useful technique I have used is to turn them around and back them up. He is still a small child of a horse ,to hit him would be a crime,but to outsmart him should be easy.
 
I was going to say get off and lead - it gives them confidence. Had to do this with my gelding as a four year old, except he would rear. It was just confidence and he got over it.
 
Mike007 said:
Glad I didn't have to read through all those pages . A useful technique I have used is to turn them around and back them up. He is still a small child of a horse ,to hit him would be a crime,but to outsmart him should be easy.
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Ah well, if you'd read through all the pages you would have found that this horse didn't respond to that or any other technique but getting off and on and off and on and ..... :)
 
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NZJenny said:
I was going to say get off and lead - it gives them confidence. Had to do this with my gelding as a four year old, except he would rear. It was just confidence and he got over it.
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I got off and led him the first day it happened Jenny (I had no choice!) but the key was to get off, lead only a few feet, and get back on again, repeatedly. He wasn't scared, he was refusing to go away from home.
 
cptrayes said:
I got off and led him the first day it happened Jenny (I had no choice!) but the key was to get off, lead only a few feet, and get back on again, repeatedly. He wasn't scared, he was refusing to go away from home.
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Yes, I got that. I wasn't about to walk any further than what I had to either - I paid to ride. And there is a whole other thread on the so called cures for rearing.

Just out of curiosity - why do you think he was refusing to go away from home?
 
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