spaniel
Well-Known Member
We are only just getting into the evidence so both sides will put very opposing opinions....we just need to wait and hear all of it before getting too aggitated...not easy though!
Jamie Gray's court case adjourned until Friday 4 April
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jhoward
Demon exorcist...
if thats the way the case is going im not sure i want to know the out come!
BankEndRescue
Well-Known Member
the bloody vet ought to be struck off
Tia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
the bloody vet ought to be struck off
[/ QUOTE ]
Why? Have you personally examined these horses to make such a statement? Could you give us more infomation about the condition the horses were in, if this is the case? And are you more qualified than John, to make comments like this?
the bloody vet ought to be struck off
[/ QUOTE ]
Why? Have you personally examined these horses to make such a statement? Could you give us more infomation about the condition the horses were in, if this is the case? And are you more qualified than John, to make comments like this?
Patches
Well-Known Member
I remember someone posting that link to the pictures taken of the horses when they were seized. Most of us said at the time that they didn't look emaciated, certainly not to the ILPH or RSPCA standards. Poor yes, but not starving. Much as I'd expect horses at this end of the market to look. It's fair to say that 9/10 horse owners probably keep their horses at a condition score above 3 and think that's perfectly normal.
As has already been said, we have no idea what state some of the animals were in when JG purchased them or how long he'd had the ones that looked more poor. They could've come to him in a pitiful state (hence cheap) and he hoped to be able to turn them around for little effort to sell at profit for meat. If he's buying extremely poor stock, I guess he will suffer fatalities anyway.....although 30+ is extremely excessive and sounds unforgivable/inexcusable doesn't it?
I don't suppose you can be cruel to a dead horse, and RSPCA case will surely only be concerned with the animals that are living? Of course DEFRA would no doubt prosecute for the breach in legislation governing animal disposal/carcass removal. Having those many carcasses on his land is most definitely not in compliance with regulations.
Not quite sure how he can be entitled to having animals returned to him but the judge still having the power to order the sale of the others? Surely if he's done no wrong he should have them all back? Wonder if he said he didn't want them back.....hence them being sold? Although, you'd expect in that scenario that the charities holding them would apply/be granted ownership? Hmmm....confuddled.
As has already been said, we have no idea what state some of the animals were in when JG purchased them or how long he'd had the ones that looked more poor. They could've come to him in a pitiful state (hence cheap) and he hoped to be able to turn them around for little effort to sell at profit for meat. If he's buying extremely poor stock, I guess he will suffer fatalities anyway.....although 30+ is extremely excessive and sounds unforgivable/inexcusable doesn't it?
I don't suppose you can be cruel to a dead horse, and RSPCA case will surely only be concerned with the animals that are living? Of course DEFRA would no doubt prosecute for the breach in legislation governing animal disposal/carcass removal. Having those many carcasses on his land is most definitely not in compliance with regulations.
Not quite sure how he can be entitled to having animals returned to him but the judge still having the power to order the sale of the others? Surely if he's done no wrong he should have them all back? Wonder if he said he didn't want them back.....hence them being sold? Although, you'd expect in that scenario that the charities holding them would apply/be granted ownership? Hmmm....confuddled.
Tia
Well-Known Member
I wondered if it might be to recoup some money which has been spent by the charities involved? It's not really clear who will benefit from the sale funds of these animals.
I really don't think that the numbers are that far removed; if you had a 10th of those horses in your care and a 10th died; it would be like having 3 horses out of 13 die on you and when dealing with horses this neglected, it wouldn't be too hard to lose 3; some of them, sadly, just don't survive for whatever reason.
I really don't think that the numbers are that far removed; if you had a 10th of those horses in your care and a 10th died; it would be like having 3 horses out of 13 die on you and when dealing with horses this neglected, it wouldn't be too hard to lose 3; some of them, sadly, just don't survive for whatever reason.
Patches
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I wondered if it might be to recoup some money which has been spent by the charities involved? It's not really clear who will benefit from the sale funds of these animals.
I really don't think that the numbers are that far removed; if you had a 10th of those horses in your care and a 10th died; it would be like having 3 horses out of 13 die on you and when dealing with horses this neglected, it wouldn't be too hard to lose 3; some of them, sadly, just don't survive for whatever reason.
[/ QUOTE ]
Granted. I totally understand that but I do wonder if he'd had a vet out to any of them before they died? I'm sure if we had 30 dead cows lying around we would be severely prosecuted by DEFRA and Trading Standards or even Environmental Health. I'd expect a hefty fine and possibly even having our operation shut down. We have just 24 hours, by law, to remove fallen stock by a disposal company. The disposal firms are legally required to collect fallen stock within 24 hours of us notifying them too. So if there are failings, one of both of us are at fault. There is some slight leeway allowed at weekends though. Be interesting to know how long vets/pathologists thought the animals had been dead for wouldn't it?
If I had noticed all those dead animals about, I'd have called DEFRA or Trading Standards first anyway.
Those are the organisations that are akin to Pitbulls when it comes to enforcing regulations and the law. Heck, it's something like a £50 fine if they choose to prosecute you for failing to return a passport within 3 days when an animal is dead or moved on/off your premises.
If you were to try and move a cow without a passport....heck....they'd lock you up! Something like a maximum of 6 months in prison and/or £5000 fine!
I accept that animals die, but there is no excuse for having so many carcasses around and I would assume the non disposal of fallen stock could be the crux of the case when it actually comes to trial. Hard to prove actual cruelty on a carcass after all isn't it?
I wondered if it might be to recoup some money which has been spent by the charities involved? It's not really clear who will benefit from the sale funds of these animals.
I really don't think that the numbers are that far removed; if you had a 10th of those horses in your care and a 10th died; it would be like having 3 horses out of 13 die on you and when dealing with horses this neglected, it wouldn't be too hard to lose 3; some of them, sadly, just don't survive for whatever reason.
[/ QUOTE ]
Granted. I totally understand that but I do wonder if he'd had a vet out to any of them before they died? I'm sure if we had 30 dead cows lying around we would be severely prosecuted by DEFRA and Trading Standards or even Environmental Health. I'd expect a hefty fine and possibly even having our operation shut down. We have just 24 hours, by law, to remove fallen stock by a disposal company. The disposal firms are legally required to collect fallen stock within 24 hours of us notifying them too. So if there are failings, one of both of us are at fault. There is some slight leeway allowed at weekends though. Be interesting to know how long vets/pathologists thought the animals had been dead for wouldn't it?
If I had noticed all those dead animals about, I'd have called DEFRA or Trading Standards first anyway.
Those are the organisations that are akin to Pitbulls when it comes to enforcing regulations and the law. Heck, it's something like a £50 fine if they choose to prosecute you for failing to return a passport within 3 days when an animal is dead or moved on/off your premises.
If you were to try and move a cow without a passport....heck....they'd lock you up! Something like a maximum of 6 months in prison and/or £5000 fine!
I accept that animals die, but there is no excuse for having so many carcasses around and I would assume the non disposal of fallen stock could be the crux of the case when it actually comes to trial. Hard to prove actual cruelty on a carcass after all isn't it?
jhoward
Demon exorcist...
so what was the outcome?