Jazz progeny...

_jetset_

_jetset_

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Has anyone had any dealings with some Jazz progeny???

It may be that the stallion who is my 1st choice this year will be unavailable
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Jazz would be my second choice...
 
My friend has a Jazz daughter. She was bred in Holland and spent her younger years being ridden then broodmare then ridden again. She did not produce mega foals. She is small, chestnut and very sharp. I believe a lot of his children are sharp.

I know he is a successful stallion, but there are others that have children with better brains.
 
I have a Jazz x Wolfgang mare who is 6 this year. She has amazing paces and is finally starting to enjoy her work but she has tested us and a few professional riders along the way! Very sharp and very spooky but an angel to handle on the ground but not for the faint hearted to ride.
Shes approx 16.2hh so a decent size for us.
 
I know them to be rather sharp and not one for the amateur rider.

Gorgeous horses and some with world class paces but not the mind which I think is more important.

How may offspring by Jazz have gone higher up the levels?
 
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How may offspring by Jazz have gone higher up the levels?

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A fair few. Parzival is probably the most high profile but there are others. In this country, Sandman is one. Movistar another.

They are known to be hot and not easy. But talented for sure.
 
Also heard about them being hot-headed!!! My friend told me about one at her stbles that is an absolute nutcase and not for the faint-hearted!
 
I agree with them being hot, but I am also into nurture vs nature too and work really hard with them as youngsters (from day one) to get their brains thinking and processing without the silly behaviour
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He is only one option, and certainly not my 1st choice of stallion at the moment. But it has to be something of Dutch blood... I am not looking for anything with the German lines
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I know them to be rather sharp and not one for the amateur rider.

Gorgeous horses and some with world class paces but not the mind which I think is more important.

How may offspring by Jazz have gone higher up the levels?

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Jazz would not be ranked Number 1 Dressage Stallion in the WBFSH Rankings if his offspring were not out competing at the highest level.

If you are breeding to any stallion you have to take great consideration of your own abilities as a rider. Its all well and good looking at Jazz or his offspring, but if you are not a good rider and able to ride these types of horses then look at another stallion.

Most horses tend to be ruined because riders dont know their own capabilities. They see these horses, then think they will like one themselves, and are unable to do the horse any justice at all. The next of it you hear people talking about them being "difficult" when in fact its the rider who has ruined the horse because it was basically too much horse for them.

Jazz offspring in the right hands are unbeatable, in the wrong hands they are ruined.
 
nomis, I think that is the case with many 'problem' or 'difficult' horses
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OK, I am not a professional rider or anywhere near to being, but what I do have is real dedication, I am eager to learn and quick to recognise when I need help! I am also not too proud to admit when something is a little beyond me either. However, I do also feel that we all have to start somewhere
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I remember when I was putting one of my mares in foal a few years ago, someone on here sent me a PM really trying to put me off breeding because I had no experience
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However, I said to them what I will say again, as long as you are willing to ask for advice, have common sense and are keen to learn new things, I don't think you can tell anyone they should not be doing something.

Yes, a Jazz horse could be too hot for me, but then I am sure if handled correctly from birth that this hotness could be used in a positive way and not become an issue. Then again, I have met horses who you would never imagine to be hot potatoes who are the steamiest ones I have ever known... one particular Welshie comes to mind
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Excuse me in my ignorance but would the mare not also have something to do with how the youngster turns out? I have known one or two Jazz youngsters - v sharp. One came from Holland, presumably as unbacked 3 yr old but later suspected someone had tried & failed. Think it got sent back eventually as v v difficult. However, as others have posted, surely nurture will have an effect. Obviously if the mare also has a hot temperament you're likely to end up with a firecracker!! And even the majority of professionals want something trainable - I agree there are professionals that are able to cope with sharp, talented horses, but I think you are looking at a limited market and possible bad publicity if a youngster that is too sharp ends up somewhere unsuitable.
 
If you're talking about what I think you're talking, then I possibly wouldn't consider Jazz as the mare line is known to be hot too. Think about something with Donnerhall in the lines, as they are known for their rideability and trainability. Also, OH has a Rosario 4 yr old that is mega and very trainable.
 
The mare is not hot at all, has a really lovely temperment and is a pleasure to be around
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Jazz is not my first choice, but the stallion I would really like to use may not be available
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What is she like ridden? Dou you know? You know my chestnut was sharp as anything to ride but was so, so easy to handle on the ground and had an adorable temperament! Once on his back though, he was very different. Mare may be lovely, but she carries the genes! We've heard of throwbacks many a time with regards to height, etc! If you are going to breed, don't just look at what you've got - think about the lineage too. I would say always, always steer clear of anything that may indicate potential offspring would only be for competent/ pro riders.
 
Jazz is a fantastic stallion and we had a jazz filly who was a complete doll but the majority are a professionals ride, If you are interested in using a KWPN stallion with a good temperament have you considered Sir Oldenburg?
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S_V your not talking about a Weltmeyer mare are you? We have one that is exactly as you describe and (if we didn't have our own stallions) breed from her it would be to Donnerhall/Rubinstein/Sandro Hit lines too!! In fact we have just acquired a new mare - she is Rohdiamant X Weltmeyer and is going in foal to our stallion Sir Frederic - this is him (not very good photo or video unfortunately):
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YouTube Video

Nomis - I couldn't agree more! A friend of ours in Germany really rates Jazz and predicts that we should see many more Jazz horses at top level in the future! I believe that you should weight the foal as 60% to the mare anyway?

Jetset, I have a Jazz lad and I love him to bits! I have ridden quite a few Jazz horses and they are all different but I would say from the ones I have ridden they seem to all be varying degrees of sharp (from sensitive & responsive to borderline bolter), and varying degrees of spooky (from a bit looky to scared of own shadow)! But I really like them and would definitely have another one - no hesitation!
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Kumala, our stallion Sir Frederic (see above post) is by Sir Oldenburg - do you have any Sir Oldenburg offspring? Sir Frederic was vice Champion at his stallion grading in Warendorf (and champion 4yo) and his full brother is being put forward this year!

ETA sorry to go slightly Off Topic!
 
Thanks for the feedback... yes, this is a Weltmeyer mare
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I am really not a Sandro Hit fan so want to stay as far away from him as possible. I know people love him and he had proved very very successful, but he is really not for me
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I really want a KWPN, and this would be bred for me rather than with a view to sell (although should the worst happen and I can no longer keep it, I would obviously have to face the reality of selling at this point). She was good to ride, very trainable and sweet. She reminds me very much of Grace in her temperment, in that she can be quite sensitive but is also trying her very hardest to please (which can sometimes make her stressy because she gets it wrong).

I am hoping to breed something special, something that has the potential to take me as far as I can go (and I do mean as far as I can go... I no doubt have my own limitations). I am always drawn to the Jazz horses, there is just something so special about them in my eyes. Perhaps that is why I have been so drawn to my 1st choice of stallion
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But, as I say, my main criteria is something of Dutch blood as I really don't want to put any German blood in there... The mare is double branded as Hannoverian and Oldenberg.
 
So does that not mean you want to go Hanoverian or Oldenburg to get offspring pink papered? Both of which are German? Correct me if I'm wrong but would you not have to have the mare graded with KWPN for resulting offspring to be given that breed society's full passport and papers? I might be completely wrong but I think that's the case with the Hanoverian breed society that my little mare is registered and pink papered with.
 
All I would say is that you have to enjoy your own horse so go for something you really want but be mindful of the fact that a professional's ride may mean you need extra help when breaking it and at various times along its education. It may not be a suitable 'pet' and may not be easy to take to competitions on your own.

I want to breed my next proper eventer from my mare but she wont be going to anything that I know produces difficult (if talented) horses as I cant always guarentee an extra pair of hands when required and I frequently go places on my own- some youngsters you just cant do this with.
 
I have to say, I would be wary of crossing Jazz to a Weltmeyer mare. Hot x hot can easily = unrideably hot.

For Weltmeyer, especially if you are looking at a Dutch stallion, I'd be thinking of the Ferro or Kostolany lines. Sorry! Jazz I think is amazing but I'd only use him on a mare with rideability imprinted in her genes (Rubenstein or Florestan, for example).
 
No, I don't want to use the German lines... I would like to add some dutch blood into her
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She is also BWB registered...

I am not 100% sure about getting the KWPN pink papers, but most KWPN horses are also graded through the various different stud books. But she could get graded as KWPN (I think) with the foal at foot as that is how she got the Oldenberg. Her head stud book is Hanoverian and she is pink papered for that (it is getting far too complicated).

The stallion who is my 1st choice is Vivaldi... but there is limited semen at the moment and the mare is well overdue too
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I really like her 2008 foal. He is by Santana and is an absolute sweetheart to be around so I know how she stamps her babies in temperment
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I would be getting a lot of help with the backing etc of the foal (as I will be doing with Troy at the end of the year) and I will be very hands on from the start with it
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So... out of curiosity, what stallions would you consider for a Weltmeyer mare? She is 17hh, chestnut and has a nice even conformation although being a mare is a little long in the back. However, her hind legs are set on her really nicely and she is quite an 'old fashioned' type WB as she has a decent amount of bone.

The foal would need to make 16.3hh + for me to keep. And no German lines
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Ok, maybe not Ferro himself if she is a bit old fashioned. But one of his sons maybe? Rousseau? Or maybe Gribaldi? United?

Don't know what you have against German lines? its much of a much really, and more important is to find a stallion that suits tbh.......
 
I have been advised that the German lines can be a bit cold, therefore by adding some Dutch blood in there, you can really produce a warmer horse
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Gobbledy goop to me, but it was a trusted person who gave me this information
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They also said that many of the German studs are now starting to add some of the Dutch lines in there for this very reason.

So, I don't have anything against the German lines at all, I think there are some stunners out there, but I think for this mare a Dutch horse will really complement her
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I have heard some strange things about Gribaldi which have really put me off him. Plus, there seem to have been a lot of young horses for sale recently in H&H for really low prices (one was £4,000) and was wondering whether they simply are not a 'desirable' horse by him. I know this is for me to keep, but I have to be realistic too and if there is any reason I cannot keep it, I would have to sell it
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I do like Gribaldi though as a horse and he is one I was considering for Han when I put her in foal...
 
I have a young Gribaldi stallion, and couldn't rate him highly enough - excellent conformation and movement, and his temperament and trainability are fantastic! He has also got lots of offspring competing at the highest levels (Painted Black, Moorlands Totilas, Sisther de Jeu) and in this country Peter Storr's Privaldi and Darryl Thickett's Rex are both Gribaldi offspring, so how he could be considered undesireable I don't know!!
Aren't most horse prices a little low at the moment?
 
This is not a recent thing I noticed GAN1... I first noticed it back in 2006 and since then noticed more and more and lower prices than what I thought they should be from such a stallion.

I would not consider one of his progeny as 'undesirable', I was merely wondering why they seem to be priced at the lower end of the 'competition horse' price bracket.

What type of mare is your boy out of?
 
He is out of a KWPN mare by Mondriaan - his pedigree is here
http://www.sporthorsedata.com/d?z=YgNVcx&d=Adonnis

lots of Trakehner blood!

I have found my chap to be very brave, and quick to learn - he can be sharp sometimes, but I expect that in a quality horse! He is also naturally uphill with a very active hock - I absolutely love his paces, both to look at and to ride!
 
why are you disregarding german lines? if the mare is double branded oldengerg and hannovarian already it will be easier to register the foal.
I think you should really think carefully about Jazz lines as others on here have said his offspring are renound for being sharp but can be fantastic in the hands of professionals.
I know you think that with the correct handling you may overcome this but I doubt it if it's the genes. you say the mare is sensitive and can get stressy so why add sharpness too? Also if you have to sell in the future Jazz lines may not be that easy to sell if renound for not being easy.
You are an amateur like the majority of us on here and there are so many stallions out there with good reputations for trainability which are easier for the non professionals.
 
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