Jeckyll & Hyde?anyone have a horse that hates..HATES them?

Hi, I too think it could be neurological, sounds very similar to a mare I had, one minute she was fine the next she was awful, very violent towards her field companion, tried jumping out of the stable, I was in there with her at the time and she tried to leap over me and the door, fortunately I managed to get out of the way and it took three of us to get her off the door. In the field she would sometimes charge at you and start rearing! My vet in the end agreed that it was best to have her pts and that's what we did, it was only a matter of time before something very nasty was going to happen. I don't want to frighten you but really feel that professional advice is needed ASAP. Wishing you friend luck!
 
Just a thought - keep a diary. Write down everything he eats, how long he has out, what the weather was like, anything else of note, and grade his 'mood' on 1-10 every day am and pm. Do that for a fortnight, a month, however long you can bear it. Then look at it objectively and see if you can work out any patterns.

Definitely cover up the bars in the stable. Some horses really don't like them. If he was next to his mate before, he might not have minded him being in his personal space, but he may not accept the others in his space in the same way. And if constantly being on the defensive is meaning he's not getting any sleep, you've got your self fulfilling prophecy right there.
 
I'm so sorry, this sounds awful. I would suspect a neurological problem and get a full vet check. There must be something wrong for his behaviour to change so dramtically. He sounds dangerous so please take care. If the problem can't be put right I think the only option would be to put to sleep, he is obviously a very unhappy horse.
 
ETA I thought I'd quoted the bit where you said he's fine on the feed he's getting- don't know what happened.

He's not fine though is he?

I used to have a mare who was similar to what you are describing, although not as vicious. Fortunately she was the bottom of the 'pecking order' in our very stable herd, so didn't get that much above herself. She became impossible to ride and extremely difficult to lead. We found that she couldn't eat either cane sugar or cereals. She was a very affectionate horse but would bite and kick for no apparent reason. She was also very sensitive to noise.

Is he any better at all after a feed, mine was only fed at night, was fine to lead out in the morning but a complete nightmare to bring in just before her next feed. We wondered if she had a neurological problem but it was all caused by her reaction to feed.

My guess is that your horse was kept in line by the one who was pts and is now missing that discipline but is struggling with something that you are feeding him. I'd take him off the haylage and feed hay for a while and try to give nothing else. If he really needs something else try soaked grassnuts with a bit of grass chaff.

I hope you manage to get it sorted out, it's a horrible position to be in.
 
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EstherYoung said:
Just a thought - keep a diary. Write down everything he eats, how long he has out, what the weather was like, anything else of note, and grade his 'mood' on 1-10 every day am and pm. Do that for a fortnight, a month, however long you can bear it. Then look at it objectively and see if you can work out any patterns.

Definitely cover up the bars in the stable. Some horses really don't like them. If he was next to his mate before, he might not have minded him being in his personal space, but he may not accept the others in his space in the same way. And if constantly being on the defensive is meaning he's not getting any sleep, you've got your self fulfilling prophecy right there.
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To me, this^^^
I don't know. If you have said anything about why he can't be ridden (other than your personal ailments) but would it help if he had work to think about? Serious work. Would you allow someone else to ride him.?

Above all though, you must stay safe. I'm not sure where your stables are, pm me the post code/directions, then at least I'll know when I hopefully won't come to your aid, where you are. I'll worry about you now, I didn't realise he was like this.
 
found the sounds of it, I wonder, is he jealous of a new horse that you have? if you're not riding him, does he have too much energy? plus the jealously, just making him plain evil? do you have the facilities to leave him out at night? so he doesnt have so much pent up energy!

my mare used to be a cow in the stable, pulling faces and biting over the top, head butting people and making them fall over! dragging me up the lane when she was turned out, and kicking mud in my face as she galloped off! she is a much happier horse living out, so might be worth a try! but does sound like you need to try and spend more time with him! the same mare, got really jealous a year ago when i got a youngster! she bit him all the time, kicked out at him (never touched him, just to shoe him off) but now they are best of friends!
 
If he was ok when his friend was still alive and his feed and management haven't changed then it is unlikely to be the cause of the problem. The sudden switch from sweet to psycho sounds terrifying and absolutely not normal. I've come across some horses that like to try and hurt you, but that tends to be constant. Whether it is grief or a physical brain problem I would be seriously questioning whether the horse should be PTS if it was mine.
 
I have know 2 like this, not long after the first one arrived a large lump began to appear on his head, turned out he had a brain tumour and was going blind so more than likely from some directions he was more than happy for you to approach then others you were effectively sneaking up on him and he would attack, he must also have been in a lot of pain.

The second horse was a bit wierder, almost exactly as you describe although he was actually turned out in a herd with mares and foals, he seemed to be a complete outsider and non of the herd paid any attention to him and would regularly chase him off the hay. However with people his eyes seemed to turn black and he would chase you out of the field, I don't doubt for one second he wouldn't have killed someone if you challenged him. Anyway decision was made if his behaviour didnt change he would be PTS so he was brought in. One of the liverys had a horsey type healer down to the yard (I'm normally pretty sceptical about things like this but she was pretty accurate!!) and she walked past his stable and said she felt really choked up, said all sorts of things about bullied turning bully etc, at this point she was in his stable with him dosing off where normally he would be attacking you. A day after that he came out in what looked like hives really really badly as these healed he seemed to mellow, you could now lead him out, bring him in etc and he was occasionally ridden. He is now back in the herd and accepted as one of them.

Now whether this was just nature taking its course I'm really not sure but either way he is a different horse!
 
My first thought was perhaps a brain tumour as his behaviour sounds quite extreme. Years ago I knew someone with a home-bred gelding who became more and more aggressive,until he became really dangerous. I hope there is a better explanation but I would be talking to your vet.
 
How bonded was he to the other horse? I knew a horse a long time ago who went 'mad' when his companion was pts. They did everything together but sadly the other horse was very old and couldn't last, the surviving horse was only 12 and his owner hoped he would bond with another horse. In the end he bonded with a livery's horse but it was his last chance - his owner was going to have him pts because he just turned dangerous. He was always a bit wired but I saw him kick his way through a stable door to chase a dog that was too close to his stable! His bloods etc came but clear but this before there were quite so many supplements on the market so very few of them were tried. Luckily for him he's still with this horse and I suspect if it ever goes then he'll be pts.
 
I wonder if he would be better somewhere new, away from the constant reminders of his friends. I think I would have him scoped for ulcers plus a neurolgical test and if both are negative then try moving him, even if only for a while.
 
Is it possible he has or had access to some kind of poison? Does he lick things so could it be a preservative, could he have found something "nasty" discarded in his field, does he drink from a water butt that none of the other do - are there lead pipes......

Is his food stored in a bin with mould......

clutching at straws a bit, but worried about you
 
My WB was aggressive like this - he bit at every opportunity, snaking over the stable door, he kicked (he broke a groom's arm in 3 places) he would strike out and rear. He was so nearly PTS. He was dangerous, especially being 17hh.
It took 6 months to get to the bottom of. I used a communicator and I used a shiatsu therapist and an iridologist. My horse was in chronic pain. He described his injury quite specifically as right hand upper hind and said he found ridden work too difficult. He had low level ulcers which were just a symptom of his chronic sacro iliac dysfunction. He had suffered like this since he was 2 years old (I got him at 5). He hated people and just wanted to be left alone. Even my vet suggested that his behaviour became more and more aggressive, because he knew that I would listen and not beat him up (as had been done to him previously).

I got LOU for him eventually after I sent him for formal diagnosis to Newmarket. He is a pussycat now. He has been treated - he feels better. He knows I know what was wrong. He trusts me - he trusts I won't push him physically and I know he loves me for believing in him and he would never hurt me. This was a horse that my family feared would kill me and my husband would ring me everytime I went to feed him to ensure I was safe. I couldn't put a rug on him in the end he was that aggressive.

If you want to ask anymore detail I am happy to answer please PM me.
 
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YasandCrystal said:
My WB was aggressive like this - he bit at every opportunity, snaking over the stable door, he kicked (he broke a groom's arm in 3 places) he would strike out and rear. He was so nearly PTS. He was dangerous, especially being 17hh.
It took 6 months to get to the bottom of. I used a communicator and I used a shiatsu therapist and an iridologist. My horse was in chronic pain. He described his injury quite specifically as right hand upper hind and said he found ridden work too difficult. He had low level ulcers which were just a symptom of his chronic sacro iliac dysfunction. He had suffered like this since he was 2 years old (I got him at 5). He hated people and just wanted to be left alone. Even my vet suggested that his behaviour became more and more aggressive, because he knew that I would listen and not beat him up (as had been done to him previously).

I got LOU for him eventually after I sent him for formal diagnosis to Newmarket. He is a pussycat now. He has been treated - he feels better. He knows I know what was wrong. He trusts me - he trusts I won't push him physically and I know he loves me for believing in him and he would never hurt me.
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Given that this has been going on for so long, I would try a communicator (choose carefully), if that didn't help, I would PTS. My lad grieved for his friend, refusing to leave the barn, not eating and turned nasty when my daughter made him go for a hack, not nasty at home where he wanted to be, a borrowed pony put him right.
Whereabouts are you, the text idea is a good one, keep safe.
 
I also believe it is down to grief - your horse cannot let go. When the shiatsu therapist touched my horse she broke down in tears. She felt all the abuse he had suffered and she also felt the pain he was in.
Other people have advised me that that was a good thing that that happened as my horse relieved himself of all that pent up emotion through her and he would feel the better for it.
Maybe a reiki session would benefit him. Whereabouts are you OP? I ask as I can do reiki and would be happy to try to help if you are close enough.
 
Tilda said:
It sounds like you are having a terrible time, is there anyone you can call when you go out to do the horses and then call/text again when you are finished so if anything (god forbid) does happen someone is alerted immediately?
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Was thinking along the same lines.Is very worrying that you would not be missed if anything were to happen.Is there someone nearby or family elsewhere that you could devise some sort of system with?? Maybe a text each evening at a certain time if you're ok??

If not maybe someone on here you 'know' that could have some sort of contact arrangement with??

As for horse,well that sounds very strange to me,and surely has to be a physical reason somewhere,either health or a response to something environmental like a toxin,allergen etc.

I don't take away from the seriousness of mental health what so ever (I work in it so know exactly how damaging it can be),but personally I don't believe horses suffer with MH conditions,not as we know them anyway.Even if they exist it wouldn't matter as impossible to treat or manage as you would with a person.

For what it's worth I wouldn't be pitting my well being against doing right by a horse,sounds like you've done all you can within your means and limitations maybe it's time to start thinking of you and your other horses??

Please take care and I hope whatever you decide to do it works out for you somehow.
 
Just quickly, I am alive!just home & checking in so as not to worry anyone..been a bit of a day so i have just read all 5 pages of replies! Thank you so so so much to everyone who has taken time to read & reply, I'm very grateful & need to go thru everyones points & questions without crashing HHO with my epic reply!

the others haven't been as lucky, but I had a good day with him today, he was calling & calling & waited by the gate peeping over the wall, worried & wouldn't go away so he could see me..all day - wouldn't even stay by his hay... This eve one of my mares on box rest was stood by my truck munching hay while i redressed her bandages-all the bits were laid out on the tailgate which was down..the snow had compacted where she stood, so suddenly she started strictly dancing on ice and slid sideways into me...and I got slammed into the corner of the tailgate..right into my hip. *insert new words you never knew existed* lots of snow crammed into a make shift ice pack & finally home -wasn't able to weight bare for over an hour & just about to get some food & have a much needed very hot spa...and catch up on lunch & supper..then i'll be back to reply...lots of things/suggestions /questions which i wanted to answer/reply to so get your irish coffees ready I'm not sure how to reply to everyone without a really epic answer,but promise I will try to keep it concise!:Dxxx
 
soulfull said:
is he any better after a feed, even a tiny bit? just a thought that the stress of losing his friends has caused ulcers.
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He can be,tho neighbouring horse/the grill get the brunt while eating, even if they are not in range or posing a threat. Once settled into his hay he is better if uninterrupted (in reality or not) x

Surreydeb said:
I would be thinking brain tumour like some of the other posters :( had a friend whose horse became unpredictable and on post mortem this was the cause.
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is on the list of considerations, tho not my preferred!

moleskinsmum said:
However, you mention a goat. Would it be worth getting another to see if those goat vibes help?
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Have the daughter of his goat friend,plus others, yet I would not trust him i a confined space with them..poor things went thru enough trauma losing their friend/mum too. I won't mix any more after 2 of my colts killed my bottle lambs - three elec fenced post & rail fields away..he could do too much damage.He can chat with them thru the fence tho,but he's not as close with the daughter goat as he was

jaquelin - thank you - yes considering all options tho have a few to try first - viewing on house as soon as snow goes(4th this year) so will open options for me.He still has happy moments & is a gent in the yard...so not in enclosed space or too big space..gentle in school too..

Conniemara1 said:
Does he have a very regimented routine? Do things get done at the same time as all the other horses? If not then I'd get him on one and if he is looking a bit too good on ad lib haylage look into getting lower value haylage or swapping it for something nutritionally lower, haylage can whoop them up!
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yes very regimented - all tbs, all done at once, tho his box being furthest the other 3 would kick off if i changed the order, but I mix all feeds then give asap so no dithering-plus i have to walk thru his neighbours box to get to his. He's poss feeling too good, but not looking over conditioned - is just about right for a tb in winter-never been a fatty tho..am trying to switch to steamed hay starting this eve

Wagtail said:
I am very concerned that you are so isolated and that if something happened, no one would find you until it's too late. Not only you, but all of the animals you care for. This horse is obviously extremely unhappy, for whatever reason. If you cannot afford to have full investigations done, then I think the kindest thing would be to PTS, for everyone's sake. So sad.
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Keeping all crossed house will sell so I can give him every option- I am being very careful(as you can be) tho it worries me too, esp as the signal is dire there -doesn't bare thinking about.

Billabongchick said:
We know so little about mental health in humans let alone horses, maybe you will never know even if you do rule out health checks etc.
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very true & sad - what little we do know in humans is even then often mishandled or misunderstood

Lintel said:
Sounds like your having a real bad time and your poor lad is too!
I have to say though I started my fella on spearmint a good few months ago and within 3 weeks or so he changed- bargyness all came back, arrogance, nipping, silly things not quite as extravagant as your lad it seems but may be worth a try.
No expert whatsoever sorry, might even be worthwhile trying a whisperer? :confused:

All the best.
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Thats interesting - they self medicate, but can do so to purge if something is wrong, they can try make themselves sick taking toxins..perhaps you're onto something here..thank you. He's taking in varying (slight degrees) of spearmint/peppermint oil in water as mentioned but nothing to say this isn't triggering the anger..tho its meant to be the other way..will look into this thank you

Asha said:
i would be talking to the vet ref the brain tumour/neurological disorder.
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SPeaking to old vet - monday!thank you

PandorasJar said:
One of our liveries was like this though not so extreme. Absolutely grumpy, the horses would skirt out his way and people would keep their wits about them. 6 years on (as a 20+ yo horse) she changed farrier and he was the nicest horse around.

Their was nothing glaringly wrong about his feet. He had an awfully angular bum but assumed to be his build/muscle wastage (lazy, old, ex racer, rarely ridden). Within the week of changing shoes he had decent muscle on his bum and was lovely temperament. Couldn't believe the speed of the change. So I'd be inclied to say pain.
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this is very interesting, thank you - someone else mentioned similar via pm, anything is worth a thought

Tilda said:
It sounds like you are having a terrible time, is there anyone you can call when you go out to do the horses and then call/text again when you are finished so if anything (god forbid) does happen someone is alerted immediately?
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V good idea - will try & fix something - perhaps we can do a sticky on here like mare stare but safety checks!

miskettie
It is v scary! - he's tall & makes himself 3 times the size!I have wondered if it was the rain affecting him, God knows it affects us!I advertised for a sharer before he got really cranky - time away is good option if i can find the right place.time off to be a horse
 
julie111-thank you

EstherYoung - brilliant idea with diary - thank you.much of it is already in my daily notes but nothing too in depth -will make a spreadsheet thingy!
re the bars/personal space-ideally he needs the lone box..size wise, he needs to shrink to fit it so i'll need to find a spare box elsewhere..

jendie - thank you, will explore all options that are safe & possible..even if he needs a new owner or the other option.

Pearlsasinger-thank you-feedwise fine as in not scouring - this has been a mile stone in itself..I am happy to keep changing till we hit the right one(gradually ofcourse) v interesting about yours,I'll try the feed suggestion, nothing to loose -incidentally, as odd as this sounds, I had been miss sold a bag of veteran vitality instead of calm & condition, so gave him that for at the time,did seem kinder on it, tho I was trying to avoid cereals..perhaps I was wrong..thank you again..& you are right about the previous pecking order..Blue was the herd leveller - fight stopper, bully stopper,victims friend, new comers friend..and if anything was sick he would alert me and 'care' for them..any species and never a stroppy face, bite or kick. it was only ever done by a presence (appart from the pair play sparring on two legs in the summer..tho i think current one was instigator)

Fools Motto said:
To me, this^^^
I don't know. If you have said anything about why he can't be ridden (other than your personal ailments) but would it help if he had work to think about? Serious work. Would you allow someone else to ride him.?

Above all though, you must stay safe. I'm not sure where your stables are, pm me the post code/directions, then at least I'll know when I hopefully won't come to your aid, where you are. I'll worry about you now, I didn't realise he was like this.
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Thank you - I 'll fb you.much nearer to you than house tho hope you won't need to know that.Yes would very much welcome someone to ride him. other than my own general broken state, I'm currently not riding him as school been used for turn out, I don't do roads!When it dries up I'm happy to get on & ride him if i have a babysitter the first time-just incase its a personal issue with me he has rather than just issues. He loves one to one & seems to adore anyone else, which is why before the lastest (this year mainly)I was looking for a sharer or similar. he was never one to need even lunging,and was happy even if not ridden daily ie you could trust him totally, but due to how he has been on the ground, i'm reluctant to try on my own x
kerrieberry2 - last new horse arrived 2 years before other died - i had 6, now 4.so as such no newcomers.the amount fed, quantity & type I would say no re energy, more likely an issue with the type/allergy/reaction tho not logical unless he's VERY special:rolleyes:(trust me to find one that needs grains to keep him calm-tho he was never one to get hot on them)turn out at night impossible as will not leave one alone- fields too wet plus he would break fences left out alone - we need some dry warm gentle non rainy weather..roll on spring! I prefer to leave out as much as physically poss if i can x
 
Ladyinred said:
I wonder if he would be better somewhere new, away from the constant reminders of his friends. I think I would have him scoped for ulcers plus a neurolgical test and if both are negative then try moving him, even if only for a while.
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I would totally agree with this, when I had ebony PTS, Ben could not cope at the old yard it was very clear that he was uneasy and scared there. Moving bought the old Ben back, a completely fresh start. Also have a look at this site:
http://www.suzannebovenizer.com/aromatherapy-essential-oils/grief-and-essential-oils smear some oil on his muzzle... I think many on here have reccomended neroli in past threads. Don't forget that when a mental state goes on for a prolonged period of time, this state becomes the.'norm'. For example:

Imagine in a normal brain we produce 50% of chemical a, and 50% of chemical b this is the normal balance.

If we experience a certain emotion or state, the chemistry in our brain changes temporarily, lets say depression causes a 60% a and 40% b reaction.

Now if this depression becomes a sustained state, eventually the brain will start to produce the chemicals at the 60:40 ratio as its norm, not at 50:50 anymore. Thus keeping the emotional state in depression.

It may well be neurological but this neurological state could be triggered because of the grief and loss of his mate and not because of a Timor etc.


I hope I explained what I mean clearly enough.
 
I'd be very surprised if grief alone could trigger such a drastic change in behaviour, although it may have exacerbated certain physical conditions. Personally i'd start by checking for ulcers by having him scoped, & perhaps consider having him blood tested if there's any possibility he's a rig. Blood tests may also show up any changes caused by tumour activity, but i'm not sure how you investigate for brain tumours in horses, so you'd have to be guided by your vet.

I wouldn't put him in with any other animals such as a goat, because with such unpredictable behaviour, you'd be putting them at risk. If he doesn't company in with him, i'd just make sure he has some horsey company over the fence, but i'd choose the companion carefully in terms of temperament.

Hope you manage to get to the bottom of this. Stay safe!
 
Unbelievable..I have just gone thru & done the most concise epic reply to everyone ...and flipping HHO gave me 'bad error code' and everything was lost:( NOT impressed!

Basically I just wanted to thank you all for taking the time to reply, to pm me, to share your expereinces & thoughts..and for making me feel so much less alone in this situation..really very grateful & it means alot. to those who offered their help by pm, I will, please bare with me..am rather pulling similar faces to my grumpy horse at the loss of post content! xxx
 
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Scoped for ulcers?

Thoroughbreds can fixate on things, so maybe the loss of his friend has freaked him out, but you would expect things to get better as time goes on. Does he display any issues with hearing or eyesight?
 
Pigeon said:
Scoped for ulcers?

Thoroughbreds can fixate on things, so maybe the loss of his friend has freaked him out, but you would expect things to get better as time goes on. Does he display any issues with hearing or eyesight?
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Not yet - previously as mentioned in thread, several vets have rather plyed down his actions/behavious as neurotic owner syndrome & on even thought it didn't warrant a visit, but her senior partner would contact if he thought it needed it -never did.I'm tied at the mo as insurance may or may not pay for nearly £800 vet bill for other horse, so with that un resolved i am in no position to fund any further investigations until its paid or i have a response-hopefully soon tho they are being bloody minded. As far as I am aware his sight & hearing are normal for him, ie no issues as far as I am aware:)
 
Sahara, you have my number, use it! Even just to give me a number of someone nearer to you that I can contact to send to you if necessary. In between your rock salt concussion and car ramp bruise then you need to set it up so we can send people to help.
 
Rebels said:
Sahara, you have my number, use it! Even just to give me a number of someone nearer to you that I can contact to send to you if necessary. In between your rock salt concussion and car ramp bruise then you need to set it up so we can send people to help.
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Thank you very much Rebels..I have just figured out who you are as you didn't look like you in your pics:o I will pm you via fb with everything and scary wolf friends too just incase:)
 
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