Jenny L-C on British Breeding

[magic104]

"as for not tracing british bred horses - a lot can be found on the allbreedspedigree website" - Not much use when you have no idea of the horses breeding in the first instance!!

I still believe that all horses born in this country should be MC'd then there can be no question as to who/what it is. I also believe that passports should have been issued from one database. When passports were first issued, who checked them? Yes now the vet has to do it, but most of these will now be for foals. What about the ones already issued with incorrect data, ie age, breed etc. I have one mare whose breeding was never recorded because her breeder never got round to it! How many horses/ponies are running around with decent breeding, not recorded because the breeder never got round to it. How many papers lost, to hide something like age?? This need not happen moving forward if horses were MC'd & done centrally along with the issue of passports.

 

[airedale]

I think also that what was said about breeding natives, etc doing well - but it's there voice that is needed just as much as the sportshorse breeders - all pulling together in the same direction instead of any 'i'm all right jack' or 'nowt to do with me' attitudes which is far to prevalent

as british people we should all want to see british riders mounted on british horses doing well in international competitions - IRRESPECTIVE of whether it is OUR nag or the one bred by 'her up the road' or that lot down south or whereever

there is too little 'national pride' in this country now and the flak I've taken for merely having the nerve to put a 'pro british' sig is symptomatic of this 'shoot ourselves in the foot' attitude where we have been brainwashed by the germans and dutch to think the only way to win is to buy one of there horses

until we have a 'tug of war' attitude where the horse world is all pulling in the same direction we are doomed to either stay where we are or even slip backwards again.

So when some of you brits are so busy flying flak in my direction - just stop and think how nice it could be to see British Riders on Britsh Horses at the British Olympics in 2012 winning for Britain.

I honestly don't think you'd get the Germans sitting on an equivalent forum saying that all their homebred horses were junk and that people should go to here or ireland to buy a horse

I can't see the French doing that either.

Even if a british breeeder is breeding shetlands or TBs we all still face the same challenges of stallion selection; mare problems; foaling problems; fertility problems, etc etc etc. - it's merely that between the small and large breeder there is an order of scale in the magnitude of the problem.

Just because people are small breeders doesn't mean they don't care about doing things right - and just because the continentals breed hundreds of horses doesn't mean to say they are all right either.

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
just stop and think how nice it could be to see British Riders on Britsh Horses at the British Olympics in 2012 winning for Britain

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Airedale; yes it would be, but I honestly don't think that the majority of British people think like that. Most Brits are interested in the British riders getting somewhere and I very much doubt they care where the horse was bred or even what breed it is.

 

[magic104]

Agreed, except they work together more & have government backing, the UK does not. Part of the problem could be that we as a nation do not band together & provide a bigger voice. It is almost impossible for a lone voice to be heard, but a chorus on the otherhand. You make very valid points, but I think it a shame that you come across very negative towards those that do choose to ride a horse other then a UK bred one. Again how many times has it been pointed out the a lot of the europeans have used UK bred horses/ponies in their breeding programme. This proves beyond a doubt that there are breeders in this country breeding the correct type of horses required. But again as already pointed out, the money for these horses was not forth coming to keep these horses in this country. I saw what happened (and still is) in the 80's when every other person was going to Holland, Germany etc & bringing back the failed horses. The reason was there was a market for them, people were convienced they were better then we had here & were worth the money. Jennie was doing her bit & I have enjoyed her open days. Still does not alter the fact that instead of banding together to change things we have this society doing this, another doing something else. We have people stating that the gradings are not as strict as they are in europe. There are improvements happening, & this maybe because of the Olympics, who knows. I just think the same things are going to be banded about in another 20yrs!!

 

[airedale]

yes - that is where The Voice is right in that there is a difference between Selling and Marketing

and whilst we may be able to sell horses we are crap at Marketing ourselves and our 'product' - to the british public - let alone the foreigners - viz our lack of ability to market for years to the Beeb that there are more people at Badders on XC day than there are at Wembley for cup final

 

[airedale]

totally agree with you - 100% - and beyond that if every horse was m'chipped then scanning and proof of ownership would have to be checked at markets and sales - making it harder to re-sell stolen horses and also for Loss of Use cases to be identified by their chip and no resold by a certain dodgy dealer featured on the beeb

so lots of benefits beyond that of breeding to that system

 

[The Voice]

Everyone agrees from owners, vets upwards that MC is the way forward and that horses could be scanned at shows to confirm age and that they are what they are supposed to be etc etc , how come not one of the societies have used initiative (which with more computerized systems coming in will save them time and money) and said that members horses must be microchipped? My thoughts is at shows, sales etc horses scanned and information is downlaoded from a central database to confirm details on to a lap top.

 

[airedale]

WHY does it have to be 'one of the societies' - yet again another example of all not pulling in the same direction

something like the competition groups - BE, BD, BSJA - need to insist that no horse can compete unless it is m'chipped

that would get horses chipped a lot quicker than via the breed societies

if you added in the BSPS, and the other showing society that has been renamed, plus the Pony Club and riding club movements

half a dozen groups and you'd cover a whole lot of horses - much quicker than 80 or so PIOs or 50 odd breed societies

 

[Ciss]

Actually Dutch Courage (aka Bill or Jaws if you got in the way of his teeth as I saw a couple of grooms do) was Dutch bred and Jenny founds him on a trip to Holland when he was 4 year olds. She always says that her attention was drawn to a very noisystable which was inhabited by an attractive dark brown horse. If he hadn;t been making a noise then he may never have come here and Dutch Gold, Catherston Dazzler, Catherston Liberator etc who all stem from that would nbver have happened. As it was Dutch Gold'd World Cup successes that really set British dressage on the route to being the fastest growing equestrian sport in the UK. Something to think about!

 

[The Voice]

when i say societies this includes BSJA, BD, BE etc etc what ever, as thats what they are and not just breeding ones.

I applaude you for your enthusiasm for British breeding by you are a tad aggresive

 

[Ciss]

Some stud books do insist on microchipping but others (eg Shetlands and often ones with signiicant numbers of feral animals) are actually rather against it becuase they are of the opinion that the stress caused by the restraints needed to hold a wild previously unhandled foal is too much from a welfare angle and certainly, they believe, much more than a quick hot branding process involves.

Don;t shoot me, I'm just the messenger on this and merely pass it on as a known fact, as I am actually in favour of microchipping, especially when it can be done at the same time as a DNA sample is taken.

 

[Ciss]

You also talk about JLC , may I just say that she spoke to me at a recent premier league and expressed a great interest in one of my stallions and we had a lovely discussion about his bloodlines, AND the stud in Germany where he was purchased.
She seems to have the knowledge that you maybe lack, and although she is promoting british breeding, she does not condemn buying a horse from germany, holland, belgium etc..
[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

And neither should any sports horse or pony breeder if they want to be successful -- and I would add Danish, Swedish and French to that of course .

One of the things that British breeders do need to promote, however, is that they are now managing to combine a discriminating knowledge of how to use the top European bloodlines most effectively with the long established British expertise in raising young stock in a natural, unstreesed way that ensures minimal incidence of OCD alongside a sound mind and good manners. Sports horse and warmblood breeders in this country have had top European mare lines for many years, but -- lets be honest -- in many cases the stallions here were not up to the same level. Now frozen and chilled semen so easily available from abroad the mares are at last getting the husbands they deserve and the resulting progeny an unpbringing that only a very few studs in Europe can provide.

If you want to see how this works out in practice go and see the animals entered in the in-hand section of the BD Young Horse and Breeding Championships on 12 July or any of the Baileys Horse Feeds / British Breeding Futurity Young Horse Evaluations being held around the country during July and August.

 

[The Voice]

Fair point, but i rekon it has more to do with cost than welfare.

MC and DNA sampling!! that would frighten people. perhaps we could get Tesco to sponsor club cards for horses and then we would have the complete demographic profile as well

 

[The Voice]

when we first showed our top brood mares bloodlines abroad they could not beleive she was in the UK. Our view is that abroad they have spent 30 years refining bloodlines and now with a credit card and a couple of weeks we can now go and get there hard work whether it is from Stallions abroad or from some in the UK.

I have to say that there are only a couple of stallions in this country I would consider and it is still cheaper to go abroad to get the semen from stallions that would be A class compared to ones that I would call B class (there are of course exceptions)

Airdale before you start on me

just because the stallion is abroad (and I am not saying I would go abroad everytime as I have used UK stallions), the foal is born in the UK making it British and I would like to think it is enhancing British Breeding

 

[airedale]

going abroad for breeding stock is one thing - if the overriding aim is to improve BRITISH breeding and not just because you are ignoring UK stuff - you are promoting an enlightened view - I'm mainly getting at the people who are ignoring GOOD british bred horses and believing the germans and dutch that 'theirs are better' when the crap they are selling the brits is far worse than what we have over here

 

[Damien]

but it's the sports horses that are needed to compete at [ QUOTE ]
Olympic level - we don't have olympic events for Clydesdales, Welsh Ponies, Highlands and Shetlands !!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Airdale That is what my post was highlighting, we need to be more specific and quote "British Sport horse breeding" the term "British Breeding is an umbrella for all breeds and types.

[ QUOTE ]
When was the last time you looked at advertising costs

[/ QUOTE ]

Every month my dear when I am paying my bills.........

Advertising is horrendously expensive, BUT for a fraction of the cost you can have a marketing campaign accessible 365 days of the year 24/7 by developing a website which you can keep up-to-date and minimise your printed advertising costs by publishing smaller adverts publishing your website address...

For a few hundred pounds you can hire a good photographer to come and photograph your stock, and if your horse the right website designer you can keep your website up-to-date at no additional cost.. If you market and brand your end product well, you will evidently ask for a higher price for the final product, that isn't rocket science it's basic business

skills.

The problem is there are many good breeders breeding good horses who are inexperienced in business sales and marketing and to be successful you need to be able to do both.

And once again those that are doing both aren't on internet discussion forums complaining.

I have many good sport horse studs in my area too and they have no youngstock left for sale this year, the foals have sold between £4000 and £8000 all are pro-active internet users, have well maintained websites and a widening clientel. They have chosen the best EU bloodlines in their mares, bred to some very carefully selected stallions and sold their foals within the UK and abroad to top competition homes, dressage and showjumping, they are producing younsgtock that IS on a par of what is being bred abroad AND the foals have an even better start in life as are well handled and carefully reared from the day they were born. British Breeding is not in crisis for those that have been guided by the European systems. Those that kick and scream and maintain that the Welsh section cross TB x Clydesdale will produce the next olympic start aren't going anywhere..

 

[Damien]

I would also like to add another very interesting observation. In Britain we are presented with a "model image" of what we class as a "good horse" and through reading many discussion forums over the years I am often intruiged at how the British visually identify in their "eyes" what appeals to them.

In the UK the model of what people like and dislike is quite different from what is considered the "model" sports horse stallion or mare on the continent.

I believe that British visual interpretation often holds the Brits back. One such example is a TB stallion who has recently been imported to the UK and has attracted a massive amount of UK interest because he is Black, has succeeded in dressage and is very much the model of a rather stunning black TB. However over the last ten years I have seen this stallions progeny and would only ever use him IF i was wanting to produce an eventer, because the progeny from him that I have seen have the movement of a TB, often loaded onto the shoulder, built down hill with little elevation, who are like the stallion himself built downhill. I cannot contest the ground covering movement is beautiful but this alone will not produce a top class dressage horse and whilst he himself has done well in dressage it would take a very uphill moving mare to compensate for his weaknesses.
Others that I feel fall into this category are the Trakehner stallions, Gribaldi, Hofrat and Hotline that seems to be on everyones lips. I cannot look passed thw weakness of movement in thse stallions hind quaters, and when compared to stallions such as Quaterback and Fiedermark for example fail to understand why people cannot see the difefrence in quality to their movement, both collected and extended.

Often yards and Breeders on the continent will state that they find the British quite interesting because when shown a group of horses to choose from they often choose the lighter more TB type horses as potential buys.
IMO It takes years of training the eye to being able to identify a good horse, what makes a potential broodmare and what stallion would best suit, a degree of creative imagination is often a gift, so evidently not everyone can make the right choices to start with and the biggest problem we face to date is the people selecting and judging the Best of British are evidently looking for that very same model that they have been exposed to year after year. The studbooks that move forwards are those that are exposing themselves to the continental judges. For the eventing type horse our judges are doing a great job. However even the eventers may well start loosing the market to the Europeans as they start to focus on that market too..........

 

[Ciss]

An interesting view as for many years the visiting judges from abroad stressed just how 'old-fashioned' many of our breeding choices seemed to be -- far too much emphais on trot when the multipliers are related mainly to walk and canter marks, too heavy in type to be sensitive enough to cope with the technical demands of twisting courses with light poles and flat cups and far too long in the loin, flat in the croup and straight in the shoulder to come through from behind enugh anyway.

Whilst I have to say that I am definetely a Hotline and His Highness fan, as with every stallion they do need the right mare. It is important to remember that many of the extremely modern types of stallion being selected and promoted in mainland Europe are successful becuase, even there, there are still many mares with short cannons behind who have excellent quality but who can still do with a little but of updating. However, even this is not always enough and the wholesale use of Sandro Hit on every type of mare backfired when it became obvious that some of the flashy movers were unable to cope with changes becuase they could not sit. OTOH this does not mean that SH on a short-cannoned good-moving mare will have the same problem and most of the best SH's areout of this type of mare.

Listening to the critiques at grading shows abroad is always illuminating as there the judges are speaking to their own audience, and making breeding decisions that are designed to improve the animals produced by their own stud books -- and the message that they give to an audience of UK breeders might not always be so honest in identifying the weaknesses as well as the strengthsof the top stallions.

It is important to remember that,however unfairly, in this case we (ie breeders here) are still very much viewed as a buying market not a producing one and the few stallions bred here that make their way back to their own mother stud books heartland for grading is evidence of this as is the fact that many daughter stud books are openly funded as marketing operations by their mother stud books. In this situation the need to promote / sell a stallion and his progeny might -- just might -- have a slightly limiting affect in what some 'foreigh' judges might say in front of a UK audience. IOW, unless you arelucky enough to travel abroad to grading shows (not just visit large breeders wanting to sell you stock) on a regualr basis, then it is best to bear in mind that recommendations as to stallion choice etc given in such situations may not be entirely altruistic in nature.

 

[Ciss]

They have chosen the best EU bloodlines in their mares, bred to some very carefully selected stallions and sold their foals within the UK and abroad to top competition homes, dressage and showjumping, they are producing younsgtock that IS on a par of what is being bred abroad AND the foals have an even better start in life as are well handled and carefully reared from the day they were born. British Breeding is not in crisis for those that have been guided by the European systems. Those that kick and scream and maintain that the Welsh section cross TB x Clydesdale will produce the next olympic start aren't going anywhere..

***********

Absolutely right Opie. These are our strengths and the inability to recognise the 'if I wanted to go there I wouldn't have started from here' syndrome is what creates the cries of crisis in many cases

 

[FRESHMAN]

I read that as it is my duty to keep the british breeder in business. No bloody thank you. Also it's a well known fact that many riders 'think' they are far better riders than they actually are. That is there problem, Lets face it what is the alternative. They would probably go out and buy some TB that would do some real serious damage. Sorry Airedale, I just can not get on your wavelength with regards to European & British Bred. I am sure you have noticed that nowadays we are also European breeders.

 

[airedale]

"....they are producing younsgtock that IS on a par of what is being bred abroad AND the foals have an even better start in life as are well handled and carefully reared from the day they were born. ....."

MY point precisely !!!

 

[magic104]

Mind you not much point in breeding all these top notch horses when we dont have the handlers/riders for them!! I think we may have had some very nice horses that just got missed!

 

[airedale]

we have the up and coming young riders to ride them

the problem is their bloody trainers take them off to Germany and Holland to buy instead of buying British

reason boils purely down to LAZINESS

it's the difference between the supermarket and the High Street

In the UK you have to walk down the High Street and go to the small shops to get good quality produce

or you drive out of town and goto the nearest Tesburys and get plastic, factory produced, goods that all look the same and taste the same.

Exactly what is happening with the horse market - I'm sick of seeing lazy people say "but if I goto Germany and can see 100 horses at one location" and then claim to buy organic food or be vegetarian !!

yep - in the UK we might not thank god have 100 horses in one location - that is 'cos we care about each of our horses and don't treat them as something to a flog to mug brits, or b. use to produce premarin or c. eat

 

[The Voice]

There is a difference between riding a young horse and producing a young horse. Many of the young riders are very talanted, but will not have the important experience to produce a young horse which they will learn from older riders and horses. It is a bit like an apprenticeship, would you give your car to be fixed to the chief mechanic or to the young apprentice? Many young mechanics will work on their own car to learn as if they screw up, they can only blame themselves and it will cost them, an no one else.

I know of a lot of 'British Bred' horses that have been produced and have gone on to win big things (british bred but registered with different societies) with all types of riders and too be honest, riders don't care what bred of horse they are riding as long as it does the job and is up to us breeders to make sure they do, so you cannot go blaming, riders, trainers, producers for breeders not producing good enough stock so they have to look elsewhere. Again it is about narrowing the odds of finding the most suitable horse and trainers and agents have also got to make a living so if they can find the right horses and make a profit, of course they will go where ever they can to do it INCLUDING the UK.

I think you are very misguided in your views.

 

[airedale]

I quite agree that riders want the right horse to do the job and not so much how it is bred - good - that means they should look and consider potential mounts here and abroad and that just isn't happening

I was answering the previous poster who was saying that current riders aren't using british bred horses despite the posting previous tot hat

that is why I pointed out that younger british riders are 'under training' but are capable in conjunction wth their trainers of riding and producing up and coming horses from this country - if only they are allowed to buy/ride British by their blinkered 'lets buy over the channel' trainers.

also - you are misguided if you think that younger riders are incapable. What about the younger Whittakers, or our young dressage riders or eventers. ARe the older riders that much better ?!?!?!?! - after all - it is our pony and young rider teams that consistently bring home the medals when the adult older riders fail

The major difference....

...............the young rider and pony teams are mounted on British bred horses and ponies in the main

.................the adults rider foreign bred horses (not the eventers and they still bring home the bacon).

I rest my case !!

Proven and proven again

 

[The Voice]

What horses do the young Whitakers ride and who has ridden them first? Why do you think they win medals? They are a family with huge experience which they share with each other to keep the family at the top of the rankings to get to the best shows. Good luck to them.

There is a HUGE difference betwen young rider classes and major GP classes.
A horse could win 1.40m classes every day of the week but will it win GP's at 1.60m. Of course it won't. How many pony riders ride them and how many rely on the pony to do the job? British Ponies are still sought after abroad and are used for breeding ponies (most probably in a factory in your view)

Older professionals are generally better at producing horses this is why they do it and then sell them onto younger riders. There is a difernce even between a 24 year old and 18 year old, just as much as a 30 year old and 24 year old. Young riders NEED older riders to share experience otherwise they cannot learn and produce horses, this is why they go and work for them.

If you know so much, you breed a horse, give it to a young rider and I will see you at the shows and buy you a drink and say you were right.

 

[airedale]

been there and done that

home bred - 3rd nationals grade 3 rider, 5th kbis all age nationally
paralympic child rider

so - does that para child need a more experienced rider to bring on her horse ?!

eat your words

(oh - and you owe me a drink !!)

 

[Partoow]

I think there is a little too much heat in this topic now and a reasoned debate has turned into who can shout down the other, when in reallity you ALL have valid points and we as riders and breeders should be working together and realise that no good horse is a waste with the right rider and if we can bring good stock on this 'island nation' of ours then we will expand our horizons not shrink them.
I look everywhere for quality stock, i have a trulely awsome mare who i bought out of Germany from exellent but differeft bloodlines to add quality and variation to the gene pool in the hope that i will breed something of value to me in this country.
The Germans and the Dutch have been breeding and working towards the development of their sports horses for a long time they have a very cohesive well co-ordinated system that is aided by the state. They also have extensive data bases that give acccess to the breeding data so that ALL breeders gain experience from other breeders.
As for riders and trainers i am both and i have bought fab ponies bred here for one of my talented young riders but also have bought from abroud for another. When i am asked to 'find' a suitable horse i have a duty to my client and i want the best for them and too that end i will do my best for my client. I would also add I NEVER WORK FOR A COMMISSION, i charge a fair price for my time and that is it, it is my belief that it is this that is taking prices out of the reasonable.
I have found that in this country the studs are not very good at looking after the visiting client, it is improving but it does still have some way to go to compete with the continent. A client is a customer and they like to feel like one, its a pity that Broadstone is no more as they were exellent at treating clients this way. They bred good horses and gave access to the public via their open days. I believe a couple of our more well known studs do this. The Woodlander stud is breeding some fab horses and putting our good young riders on them, Maria Eilberg for example, these are all continental bloodlines but they are now here and are under the name of the British Hanoverian. The same goes for Susanne Davies and her world young horse champion Dimaggio, The Meadows stud is also producing some very nice young horses but this is only a handful and we have the right to make a free choice and buy the best we can and due to there really being quite a limited choice this may not be here.
I travelled to Germany 3 times this year and ended up not buying there but from here. I had the choice and that gave me the confidence to know that when i finally did spend my owners money i did the best for her at that time and i will endevour to produce this horse in the same way.
I support my country by doing the best and giving the best . I hope no one needs to eat their words because we could pull together rather than appart . There is room here for both home bred and continental bred and the development of equestianism, that is what JLC stands for.

 

[airedale]

well said

and wish there were more like you around

I was thinking that perhaps what is needed, instead of the prize for "I bought this horse at Addington" is a competition series for SJ and dressage (the eventers atm are reasonably safe on british bred horses)

where the competition is ONLY open to british bred horses (i.e. parents resident and standing in the UK and the horse actually born in the UK) - so only asking for *1* generation of the pedigree to be totally UK

with a decent prize at the end of it - both for the owner, the rider AND the breeder

Anyone fancy sponsoring a competition like this ???

Volunteers step a hundred paces forward

but I honestly think this is what we need as both an incentive to british (sports horse) breeding AND to shop window our breeding capabilities

we have the YEventer andYdressage classes but they are open to any horse

what we need is a British breeding showcase

Wonder if the Gredleys would sponsor this or someone like them

 

[FRESHMAN]

Sorry Voice I do have to say I dont completely agree with you on that score. I remember only a couple of years ago you remarked about sending young horses off to a Professional Yard at a great cost, & actually because the main man is not at home for most of the time it is the YR's that actually do the majority of the work. Yes they are set goals & targets but they still work very much on their own. Only a short while ago you mentioned that your own horse had not been out for weeks, as the main man was on the Sunshine tour. So, who was keeping him ticking over. Sometimes the YR's have a personal trainer/instructor that visits them on several occasions a week, therefore surely can give there expertise on a more regular basis than a big name that is never at home for more than an odd day every couple of weeks. The difference is, the Big Name Families will always get the best horses sent to them because they have earned there reputation. But tell me please. Who did the likes of John & Micheal W train under. As far as I am aware it was done at home without much outside help at all. ( & Good Luck to them) These days I believe it has become a trend that you must have a Top Trainer. OR Work on a Big Name Professional Yard. I find that rather sad & not good for the sport in general. But it does keep those at the top of the Sort, at the Top of the Sport. Think it's called 'Business' & a bloody big one at that. Calling time before I say something I might regret.