John & Peppermill

other combinations have been suggested both now and in the past for one and if you actually new anything about it and had ever done a couple of vet checks you would know that there is no comparision between the two sports as far as vet checks are concerned though it is fair to say the criteria should be the same regardless.
 
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Interesting comments by Mike Tucker, I also thought he could jump today as an eliminated rider can jump in the second round so why not a non starter?.

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If that's the case, shame he didn't just go in and canter through the start twice then......
 
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Interesting comments by Mike Tucker, I also thought he could jump today as an eliminated rider can jump in the second round so why not a non starter?. As he said if John had just ridden in and got elimination at the first fence he could have jumped, they didn't do that as it would look ridiculous on international telly. I think they should have been allowed to jump today.

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Ditto. I can see why the teams wouldn't want a fresh horse against them, but if an eliminated horse can still jump, then I think John should have been able to. Still, rules are rules.

Don't really get all the accusations and finger pointing tbh, if Peppermill had been that bad then he wouldn't have jumped in the qualifier. Just bad luck that he went wrong imo - I just feel awful for John, I think he and Peppermill really deserved their place on the team.
 
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Lucretia you must have background information that the rest of us don't know. To the general show jumping fan, both Portofino and Peppermill were fine when they were shipped out. Portofino unfortunately did something and was intermittently lame. Peppermill might have tied up after the first SJ round. Crap, unlucky, but hardly unheard of? French Eventing team anyone???

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Sorry, just jumping in here as HHO seems to be working for me atm (been driving me nuts
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For Team GB's sake, I do hope that this not to be compared with the french eventing team.As a reminder (who says vet checks are stricter in eventing...? You can ALSO make an eventing donkey trot for a couple of minutes),first horse suffered a sprain during the prep in france and 3 weeks only before flying to HK and the stable incident for the second one... Who's buying that ? Especially if horse supposedly known to freak out during storms...
My conclusion has been poor management (rigor has never been a french virtue...) but it would surprise me a lot more from GB as one of the stronger equestrian nations.
 
Lucretia- If you have anywhere near the in depth knowledge you make out you have, you would know that Mondriaan was withdrawn from selction by Willilam as the horse was unsound, and he wanted to concentrtate on the Derby. Peter Charles' horse Rupert is no superstar (yet), Tim Gredley's horse has been unsound/out of the running until Dublin last week, Locarno is definately not sound and has only had 1 placing in 2008 and Robert's horses Ronaldo and Vangelis do not yet have enough experience.

I think it's unfair therefore to blame the selector for bad luck and unforseen circumstances. He's done the best he can with what he has and as they have shown so far they are actually bloomin good!
 
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Bsja need to have a good inward look and think carefully about who they take and why

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hee hee, so does whoever selects the BE team!! Maybe pick some horses who don't think the point of sj is to take down as many as possible!
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*runs for cover!*

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crikey, i think that's a bit unfair! one down for everyone in the first round, iirc, apart from Mary's who usually sjs clear... if you look on his BE record, Cavvy hasn't had a sj down for literally years. okay, clears would have been better, for sure, but the xc was hard work and it takes a lot out of a horse. they may look fantastic going in to sj at a 3-day, but they don't feel the same as at a 1-day. even Romeike's horse had 1 down in the first round...

btw, i wasn't Whitaker-bashing, i think they are both (all!) quite exceptional riders, but if there is the slightest doubt about the soundness of their horses, it is total madness to include them. i had heard the rumours, well before the plane took off...
 
Oh my! What a bashing people are getting. As far as I see it, that's the name of the game and it's unfortunate yes and yes of course the other teams protested about us (John) being allowed to compete as it makes us a weaker team as all scores have to count!

Why don't we just all sit back and enjoy and wish the others the best of luck?!

You're sounding like football 'managers' (ie pub locals) sat at a bar discussing the bad decisions someone else made!

It'sntohing to do with any of us, we're not on the selection commitee so that's not a hell of a lot any of us could have done about it. Now all stop bickering and get on with watching the event (oh and hope the other teams get cricket score rounds!!!
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Interesting comments by Mike Tucker, I also thought he could jump today as an eliminated rider can jump in the second round so why not a non starter?. As he said if John had just ridden in and got elimination at the first fence he could have jumped, they didn't do that as it would look ridiculous on international telly. I think they should have been allowed to jump today.

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I think they should've checked the rulebook and done exactly that. John & Peppermill should've ridden through the start and up to the 1st fence.. at least he could've then gone today... it might have looked 'silly' to an International audience, but then again, that pride might have just cost us a team medal.
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Rumours are rumours and shouldn't be believed until substaniated, just like chinese whispers these rumours have a high tendancy to be exaggerated and distorted to no longer resemble the initial truth. Just look at the eventers before they left about how Tina was out and Lucy was back in, in reality that was nonsense (well we can't confirm or deny but I think a medal or two confirms no soundness issues for MF!
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Peppermill's form this year might be a bit lacking but he has been competed only very lightly and I can't recall him having any disastourous results since the euros last year when he was simply superb.

Potential other horses at top level? lets see Mondriaan who was never in contention anyway as semi reitred now and being saved by William for classes like the derby! William's main other ride now Billy Birr too young and without the necessary top level experience/form, Peter Charles up coming results but still young and inexperienced at this level, Robert Smith well Ronaldo is coming along nicely but inexperienced and Vangelis only jumped his first super league the other week, Locarno not right still and not sure anyone could question that.

It is suggested it is infact a back issue not tying up from what i have read/heard. I have had a similar experience with Dan, Halfway through a jumping session he seemingly tied up on me and both me and vet thought classic azortouria but bloods came back normal, on inspection by back specialist he had put his sacroiliat joint out on one side which we could only pin down to him lying down/rolling oddly in the stable. Ended up giving him 2 weeks off and then another 5-6 weeks bringing him gently back into work though so if was tying up or a similar back injury to what I experienced I would have been amazed if Peppermill had been sound enough to compete today.

A real shame for the GB team and hopefully it is simply just one of those things that happens but until there is an official announcement as to what is wrong with Peppermill I really believe people should stop jumping to conclusions and as LadyT said enjoy the competition and think in reality the team has done rather well so far in comparison to other nations, we made the halfway cut to start and didn't embarress ourselves, yes we missed out on a medal but realistically to have got bronze we would have had to knock 10 penalties off our score so Peppermill could have had a maximum of 2 time faults (3 to tie!) which given the number of clears and he not being 100% whichever way you looked at it that was always a very unlikely thing to happen!!

Now i'm off to cheer Canada to try beat the US in the jump off!!!

Edit bah too late US have just won it but well done them 3 clears in the JO!
 
Can't believe people are saying John should have ridden Peppermill yesterday
Having had a horse that suffered from Azurtoria (sp) the last thing you do is move it, not sure if that was what was wrong with Peppermill but if there was just the slightest chance there is no way the horse should be ridden, even just cantered up to the first fence. Better to safeguard a horses wellbeing than a bit of metal on a ribbon. And if he had done that and the horse had broken down how many people would have come on here to slate him.
 
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Can't believe people are saying John should have ridden Peppermill yesterday
Having had a horse that suffered from Azurtoria (sp) the last thing you do is move it, not sure if that was what was wrong with Peppermill but if there was just the slightest chance there is no way the horse should be ridden, even just cantered up to the first fence. Better to safeguard a horses wellbeing than a bit of metal on a ribbon. And if he had done that and the horse had broken down how many people would have come on here to slate him.

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Exactly. I think people are assuming his problem is very minor (well minor enough for him to be ridden to get around this rule) but the fact is no-one yet really knows what the problem is.
 
young rider if you knew what you were talking about, although william funnel had ruled himself out technically the derby was a month before the horses even went into quarantine so there was plenty of time to reassess the situation if it was needed. we didnt need to make a final descsion until that moment (plenty of other teams did not) and and i cant believe no one else aside from the five who flew went into quarantine. As for peter charles horse, people were saying the same thing about rolette not long ago on this forum and how there were alot of people ahead of ben in terms of selection.......!
the other guys did brilliantly well especially ben but they were robbed of a medal chance because of someones short sightedness.
and then as someone else said withdrawing peppermill from the first round without even reading the rules properly?
this was not just about horses unluckily going wrong, we all know that sort of thing happens, nor was it entirely about the whitakers who doubtless want to win as much as any but questions need to be asked about of the selection process and of those who were advising our showjump riders in hong kong.
i am gratified though that the rest of the team will get a shot at the individual medals. It is a shame that they were in part denied a team medal because of mstakes by the beurocracy.
 
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Can't believe people are saying John should have ridden Peppermill yesterday
Having had a horse that suffered from Azurtoria (sp) the last thing you do is move it, not sure if that was what was wrong with Peppermill but if there was just the slightest chance there is no way the horse should be ridden, even just cantered up to the first fence. Better to safeguard a horses wellbeing than a bit of metal on a ribbon. And if he had done that and the horse had broken down how many people would have come on here to slate him.

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Exactly. I think people are assuming his problem is very minor (well minor enough for him to be ridden to get around this rule) but the fact is no-one yet really knows what the problem is.

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Well the commentary on the telly said he was ridden yesterday afternoon and although not 100%, he was much better than in the morning. He was so much better by today that they wanted to jump him but weren't allowed as he didn't go yesterday... that was the point of my comment. They didn't need to jump him yesterday, just have got him eliminated at the 1st fence, as a team tactic to enable him to carry on today if he was right again.
 
Out of interest, would the other teams have been able to protest if they had ridden through the start & stopped? It would have been obvious what we were doing (team tactics), surely there would have been complaints?
 
I am sorry to say but, British showjumping team selections are nepotism at its best.

You are all asking who they should have sent instead of John and Peppermill, the answer is very simple!!!!!!! A sound horse would have been a good start!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who has the first round on video can see that when he pulled the horse up from canter to trot before leaving the arena, IT WAS LAME!!!!!!!!!! The look on the owners face tells the story.

It is about time the, so called, selectors allowed the younger generation to strut their stuff, Ben showed just how capable they are.

John, Nick and Tim have been superb ambassadors for their sport, but it is time the selectors chose riders that spent their spare time in the gym rather than the bar!!!!!!!!

They should gracefully roll over and let the next generation of riders fill their shoes, come on its about time!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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John, Nick and Tim have been superb ambassadors for their sport, but it is time the selectors chose riders that spent their spare time in the gym rather than the bar!!!!!!!!


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Sorry but PMSL!!!!
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In my opinion British Showjumping teams have always been a bit of an "old boys club". It is slightly better than it was. I remember when Ronnie Mazarella (sp) was in charge he was quoted as saying that there would never be ladies in his team, cant remember the exact words, don't think he would have got away with it now.

Agree it was wrong to include the Whittakers if it is true both horses weren't 100%, but i don't think you can knock Tim's performance though, think he's done a great job.


 
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Anyone who has the first round on video can see that when he pulled the horse up from canter to trot before leaving the arena, IT WAS LAME!!!!!!!!!! The look on the owners face tells the story.

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Umm, are you talking about Peppermill? he didn't come out at all, did he? if he did, i missed it!
 
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Agree it was wrong to include the Whittakers if it is true both horses weren't 100%, but i don't think you can knock Tim's performance though, think he's done a great job.

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Still don't think you'll will find him in the Gym!!!!!

We have 19 year olds in the pool winning golds and breaking world records, its about time we allowed the younger generation to shine in the showjumping too. If we don't, all we will end up with is a geriatric team with no-one knocking on the door, as the talented riders, if they have any sense, will rider elsewhere, after all there really is no money in it, equestrian sport are a passion!!!!!!!!!
 
cruise line was talking about the warm up round. and well done for seeing that, noone els ehere seemed to noticed that small but important fact....
and i totally agree with freshman, pinkwellies and all those of a similar mind.
 
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Anyone who has the first round on video can see that when he pulled the horse up from canter to trot before leaving the arena, IT WAS LAME!!!!!!!!!! The look on the owners face tells the story.

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Umm, are you talking about Peppermill? he didn't come out at all, did he? if he did, i missed it!

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Sorry, I meant the first round for the individual qualifiers and team first round which took place on Friday.
 
Cruiseline who would you have sent instead of the 2 whitakers and Nick?

I think the Team Manager should be shot for not reading the rules properly. If the Peppermill was fit enough today to jump around an Olympic track, he was fit enough to be ridden through the start yesterday.
 
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Ditto. I can see why the teams wouldn't want a fresh horse against them, but if an eliminated horse can still jump, then I think John should have been able to. Still, rules are rules.

Don't really get all the accusations and finger pointing tbh, if Peppermill had been that bad then he wouldn't have jumped in the qualifier. Just bad luck that he went wrong imo - I just feel awful for John, I think he and Peppermill really deserved their place on the team.

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Quite agree. It seems strange that the rules seem to encourage a rider to take their horse into the ring and get eliminated rather than to do what is best for the horse.
Still, we are where we are, so lets hope for better luck in the individual.
 
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Agree it was wrong to include the Whittakers if it is true both horses weren't 100%, but i don't think you can knock Tim's performance though, think he's done a great job.

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Still don't think you'll will find him in the Gym!!!!!

We have 19 year olds in the pool winning golds and breaking world records, its about time we allowed the younger generation to shine in the showjumping too. If we don't, all we will end up with is a geriatric team with no-one knocking on the door, as the talented riders, if they have any sense, will rider elsewhere, after all there really is no money in it, equestrian sport are a passion!!!!!!!!!

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Probably not
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I agree with you that we should be encouraging the young riders, hopefully Ben Mahers performance will open the door for others, nobody can knock him being too young or inexperienced. Team selectors should now be looking forward to 2012 and giving our up and coming riders the chance to gain national and international experience.
 
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Cruiseline who would you have sent instead of the 2 whitakers and Nick?

I think the Team Manager should be shot for not reading the rules properly. If the Peppermill was fit enough today to jump around an Olympic track, he was fit enough to be ridden through the start yesterday.

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Sorry, DieselDog, as an official International FEI steward of showjumping, the rules are the rules, whether we like them or not, it just shows how professional the British team manager is, if he did not know them. They are pretty self explanatory and written down for all to see. Also if I was the owner of Peppermill, I would not have even agreed for the horse to have been there in the first place, let alone go in the ring so that it could jump the next day. Surely the horse's welfare is more important than a round of showjumping. I do not think for one instance that Peppermill was fit to jump an Olympic track, the team manager was just clutching at straws, which in my opinion is a disgrace!!!!

If the correct preparation, training and money is put into any of our very professional younger riders, the selectors would not have a problem of who to chose, but who not to chose!!!!!!!

Same old story, same old faces!!!!!!!!!!
 
Whilst i agree to a point, wasn't it the selectors that chose Ben? If you had asked him 6 months if the horse was ready for the Olympics he would have said no, but the selectors made a bold choice after the horse went to the USA and made the step up. I would also like to hear what the team vets say because they have a big say as to whether a horse is fit to travel or not.

I don't think it is just about the riders young or old, it is about the horses and more importantly about the shows in the UK. A horse will learn far more 2 weeks abroad then they will 6 months in the UK but there are limited places and unfortunatly the fact is there are a lot of 'older' riders with a stable yard of good horses. We dumb down our classes in the UK from young horses upwards and I think the standard has got to be raised to get the horses jumping and so that 'young riders' can prove they are up to the mantle. I know it is a waste of money putting horses in 1.40m GP's at shows but there is nothing else. a GP should be 1.50m and I bet the standard of jumping of both horse and rider will significantly improve.
 
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Sorry, DieselDog, as an official International FEI steward of showjumping, the rules are the rules, whether we like them or not, it just shows how professional the British team manager is, if he did not know them. They are pretty self explanatory and written down for all to see. Also if I was the owner of Peppermill, I would not have even agreed for the horse to have been there in the first place, let alone go in the ring so that it could jump the next day. Surely the horse's welfare is more important than a round of showjumping. I do not think for one instance that Peppermill was fit to jump an Olympic track, the team manager was just clutching at straws, which in my opinion is a disgrace!!!!

If the correct preparation, training and money is put into any of our very professional younger riders, the selectors would not have a problem of who to chose, but who not to chose!!!!!!!

Same old story, same old faces!!!!!!!!!!

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Exactly he should have known the rules. To put it another way if the horse wasn't fit enough to be riden for 30 seconds in the ring yesterday it wouldn't have been fit enough to jump today.

Exactly who's money are you spending on these young riders? There isn't any. Alex the chineese eventer is supposed to have had £1.3m spent on him to get him to the Olympics according to the commentators - A young rider in the UK would have to find a very genorous patron to buy their way on to the team.
 
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It is about time the, so called, selectors allowed the younger generation to strut their stuff, Ben showed just how capable they are.

John, Nick and Tim have been superb ambassadors for their sport, but it is time the selectors chose riders that spent their spare time in the gym rather than the bar!!!!!!!!



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Absolutely. It's a sport. Ian Millar at 61 looked fitter than our lot (with the exception of Ben) - they should for real be in the gym.
 
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