Judging of showing classes - aaaaargh!

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Harriettie

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Took the boy to a qualifier today and he came 4th (usually wins), so I asked the judge for feedback and was told his eyes were too small and she admitted it was just her preference!

Now, this was a coloured class.........

Can anyone tell me how coloured classses are actually judged? What is the criteria (and does it include eye size :confused:). The ones that beat him were variously fat, dirty and predominantly white.

I think I will give up. I gave up showing a few years ago when he was beaten in a coloured class by 4 palominos and now I remember why I don't like it. The trouble is, I suppose that unless I start doing things that include hurtling around like scary jumping, then I am at the mercy of a judge. I usually compete at dressage and even that is open to interpretation in terms of the judge beng subjective.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a sore loser (I'm very used to not doing well at dressage!) I just don't understand. I do know it's not really an achievement to do well in a coloured class as it doesn't take any skill - but hey, there is one thing my boy is good at and that is being brown and white!

Any thoughts?

Green rosette to the most helpful answer! :o
 
I had a coloured mare quite a few years ago who would generally come in the top two in-hand and ridden. One time I got pulled in first, did my display and then got dropped down. The judge gave me the rosette and told me that she thought he had a bit of an evil eye and wasn't always this well behaved. "He" was actually a she, and her name made it obvious she was a mare. She also had probably the kindest face I've ever seen, and was very well behaved without a bad bone in her body!

Sorry, not any help, but the eye part of your post brought back this memory to me!
 
TBH, it does sound as though because you are used to winning and today you just happened not to win, you have decided to give up showing. Show classes are indeed judged according tot he preference of the judge. I would have thought that the size of the eye (which can't be altered) was more likely to influence the judge than the cleanliness or otherwise, which can be rectified. I'm sorry you were upset to come 4th, just think how all those who've come behind 'that gelding with the small eyes' have felt in the classes you've won.
I realise that you probably won't find this answer helpful but can only suggest that you avoid that judge in future. Please feel free to keep your green rosette, some people would be very grateful for it and for the time that the judges and stewards gave up to allow you to compete.
 
I agree with the above. Sorry. You can't win everything and at the end of the day the judges decision is final whether you like it or not. I've got ponies here who win championships left right and centre every year but then equally get placed down the line as well due to their colour.

One of the biggest gripes in showing is about the judges when you don't win. You have paid to have someone else give their opinion of your horse, you may not like it but it is THEIR opinion. If you can't hack someone not thinking your horse is the next best thing to sliced bread then don't show. Simple.
 
Harriettie said:
I gave up showing a few years ago when he was beaten in a coloured class by 4 palominos and now I remember why I don't like it.
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Um, if you look at the rules palominos/duns/buckskins/roans etc are allowed to enter coloured classes at local level :confused: If you don't like it join CHAPS or somewhere they are not allowed :rolleyes:

So you don't think it requires any skill but you're still pissed off that you didn't win? Where's the achievement in competing or winning if it takes no skill to do? :confused:

Depends on the class - you're better off checking the rules but they can be judged on conformation, turnout, manners, way of going, trueness to 'type' e.g. when you have traditionals up against sportshorses etc. Not eye size as far as I'm aware though :p :D

At the end of the day yes it is subjective, and judges are under no obligation at most shows to declare why they made their choices - they most often will but after seeing displays of aggression from losing competitors I don't blame them for not!

There are plenty of equestrian sports that don't involve hurtling around over jumps, what about trying something like BHS Trec if you want to compete? I've always found the officials and competitors to be very friendly :)
 
Does sound little like sour grapes to me! Last year we took our team to a show and came away with 20+ championships and 10+ reserves, month later week took the same horses in similar classes and came away with a handful of wins but mostly lower places. No point getting upset about it, or thinking those previous wins mean we 'deserved' to do better - judging is IME conformation+turnout+presentation+judges discretion.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
TBH, it does sound as though because you are used to winning and today you just happened not to win, you have decided to give up showing. Show classes are indeed judged according tot he preference of the judge. I would have thought that the size of the eye (which can't be altered) was more likely to influence the judge than the cleanliness or otherwise, which can be rectified. I'm sorry you were upset to come 4th, just think how all those who've come behind 'that gelding with the small eyes' have felt in the classes you've won.
I realise that you probably won't find this answer helpful but can only suggest that you avoid that judge in future. Please feel free to keep your green rosette, some people would be very grateful for it and for the time that the judges and stewards gave up to allow you to compete.
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Oh no, please don't think I am not grateful, I rewrote my post several times to really try not to come across as a sore loser, because I'm really not - it was a lovely show and the judge was kind to answer my request for feedback. I was asking genuine question because I would really like to know, and if confirmation (including eye size!) is part of it then I am pleased we have done so well up to now as he is not the best put together animal.

I do genuinely want to understand how the classes are judged.

And coming 4th today meant last! So no one was beaten by 'piggy eyes' as he is now known.......;)
 
I understand what you are getting at, but also agree with the above.

To be fair showing is all down to personal preference once all other aspects of the type have been taken into consideration , so if he met all criteria and then the judge had to make a decision, then his eyes probably would make a difference to her opinion.

You pay your money and takes your chances.

I have up showing my LH haird weimraner, because many judges ( at the time, it may have changed) personally do not like LH, she is a great example of the breed in all other ways, except she has long hair :(
 
I got told by a judge (unaffiliated in hand best condition youngster) that I came 4th - and last because she 'didn't like her pasterns' :)
 
Harriettie said:
I do genuinely want to understand how the classes are judged.
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I don't think you ever will, especially at local/unaffiliated level. Maybe the judge was bitten by a piggy-eyed pony as a child and bears a grudge :D (I have heard a judge admit to hating all chestnuts for that very reason :rolleyes:)

Years ago now, in one of my rare forays into showing (had a dislocated shoulder so wasn't jumping) I was placed down the line in a riding club horse class, the judge was an ex instructor of mine and the reason she gave was that he was too well behaved, and the winner despite bucking when she got on and being very strong in the canter was more 'her type' of horse.. Of course the most important thing in a riding club horse class (as opposed to riding horse) is manners and behaviour :D That's showing for you!

But seriously, have a look at Trec, it's brilliant fun!
 
Well I can't imagine that conformation isn't part of any showing class. As far as I know coloured classes are judged on conformation and the colour is only taken into account to separate two very similar horses.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies, really helpful. The judge is there to give his / her opinion and I fully respect that and no way am I challenging that at all, simply trying to understand.

And, yes Rhino and MW, I have thought about Le Trec and it looks great, thank you for reminding me. I think we could enjoy it, especially the bits where you open and close gates (we can do this bit!) and ride under poles (possibly, although my stomach may get in the way of me lying flat....) and other technical stuff, I think I was one bit where you seem to do a horsey version of dancing round a maypole.
 
Showing is ALL about conformation (unless you are doing equitation, turn out etc) and in coloured classes, the colour (providing the horse IS coloured) is not taken into account. Perhaps, as you say your horse is badly put together, the judge picked on his eyes being small as she did not want to offend you with her true thoughts?

Showing (sorry to disagree with you!) is actually a very skilful discipline - the easier someone makes it look, the more work they have put in!

Up to you whether you give up or not, but keep up with the good turnout and cleanliness - even though the dirty one may have beaten you today, at least you know you put the effort in to make you and your horse look the part!
 
FMM said:
Showing is ALL about conformation (unless you are doing equitation, turn out etc) and in coloured classes, the colour (providing the horse IS coloured) is not taken into account. Perhaps, as you say your horse is badly put together, the judge picked on his eyes being small as she did not want to offend you with her true thoughts?

Showing (sorry to disagree with you!) is actually a very skilful discipline - the easier someone makes it look, the more work they have put in!

Up to you whether you give up or not, but keep up with the good turnout and cleanliness - even though the dirty one may have beaten you today, at least you know you put the effort in to make you and your horse look the part!
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Oh, that's really interesting what you say about the colour not being taken in to account, but it all being about conformation (- looking at your signature you look like you know showing!). I had thought it was about the colour, whether there was an even spread, not 'bleeding' from one colour into the other etc etc. Looks like we have got away with it up to now then, as what you say really makes sense. If the horse is not a good example generally then how good the colour is is a moot point. Thank you FMM. And that explains why I didn't think it required skill as I was just basing it on the colour which no amount of skill can improve!

I think I might go away now before any one suggests I shouldn't be anywhere near a showground :(
 
Harriettie said:
Oh, that's really interesting what you say about the colour not being taken in to account, but it all being about conformation (- looking at your signature you look like you know showing!). I had thought it was about the colour, whether there was an even spread, not 'bleeding' from one colour into the other etc etc. Looks like we have got away with it up to now then, as what you say really makes sense. If the horse is not a good example generally then how good the colour is is a moot point. Thank you FMM. And that explains why I didn't think it required skill as I was just basing it on the colour which no amount of skill can improve!

I think I might go away now before any one suggests I shouldn't be anywhere near a showground :(
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NOOO!!!! Don't give up - just work harder on hiding the defects!!! No horse is perfect - part of the skill is making people believe that your horse IS perfect and this is something you can work hard on! A good colour makes the overall picture look better, so it obviously does help, but in theory does not make a difference.
 
FMM said:
NOOO!!!! Don't give up - just work harder on hiding the defects!!! No horse is perfect - part of the skill is making people believe that your horse IS perfect and this is something you can work hard on! A good colour makes the overall picture look better, so it obviously does help, but in theory does not make a difference.
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Don't encourage me to carry on.......(thinks scheming thoughts......) unless you would like to give me the benefit of your wisdom, as I see you are in Beds as well! Only kidding ;)

I shall think on.

Thanks all.
 
I never really understood the coloured classes as colour does not come into it! I am presuming they came about as judges were prejudiced against coloured horses in the traditional classes.

If for example you have a coloured cob then you will be judged on how near he is to description of a perfect cob theorectially he should be judged in the same way as he would be judged in a normal cob class.

Where is might get tricky is when you have a class which has all different types of coloured horses ranging from shetlands to lighter sports horse types and then the judge may have a preference for a certain type or expertise on a certain type. I think the coloured classes are very difficult to judge for this reason unless they are split by type.

If everyone gave up if they came last occasionally but normally won there would be no-one showing!
 
It is very difficult to judge a coloured horse, coloured markings can often mask bad conformation, you have to take that into account for local showing.
On the whole it is a bag of marbles, getting people to judge shows at lower levels is very difficult, showing has struggled to shake off all kinds of accusations over the years- stick with it, everyone has their bad days.
 
I do agree with much of what FMM says.

I show my coloured and I am lucky enough to have done quite well with him, his conformation is pretty good and a lot of the time judges like him. (I am not in any way wanting to sound big headed by these comments)
But there are days when we go out and the judge may not like him and we have been well down the line even when I feel he has gone lovely in the class, you have to just take that that is the decision of the judge and it is their decision.
There are good and bad days as with all riding diciplines but with showing unlike showjumping you can't explain why you are in a certain place sometimes.
Don't give up!
 
Weird remarks from a judge but hey!

We went to a qualifier also at Low Farm Bozeat - rushden and district

Fabulous judge there gives feed back to you explaining why you have come in the position you have and even helps you if you ask for help. Never heard the 'small eyes' before though! Rushdens judge is very fair indeed and judges true to type and how they are on the day.

Very fair judge and happy with my placings and aim to take on board what the judge said to me and improve for next time.

There are royal london qualifiers and equifest and tgca ones too. Rushden have a facebook page if you want to see when the next show is
 
Coloured classes are weird. My boy has great confirmation (not being bias!) but he only has a few splodges of black. His paces are also extremely good for his type(ususlly gets 62%+ dressage)He is also a native so against full traditionals i find it a bit tight for him to get placed. He has been up against some traditionals that are absolutely like cart horses , and purely because they have more feather and black he gets put down the class!
 
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