Jumping over horsebox breast bar - options for lorry conversion

Bernster

Bernster

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Not sure if you've seen, but there's a horrid story on FB at the moment about a horse that got injured jumping over the breastbar of a 3.5t lorry. I have heard the occasional story of this happening but there have been a surprising number of replies from people saying they've had the same thing.

So ofc this has got me totally paranoid about my lorry, which has the same set up - fixed breastbar into the grooms area. I've had it for 5 years and it's been fab, but am now wondering if I should look at some adjustment when it goes in for plating.

Has anyone had their 3.5t lorries changed in light of this? Am wondering about an anti-weave grill, seems like the most obvious and easy fix. Any other ideas? Presumably it's way cheaper to re-work my lorry in some way, keeping the chassis, than buy a newer one (which do all seem to have solid bulkheads nowadays).
 
I have a removable anti-weave grille which had been ordered by the last person to own my lorry. I haven't used it but it's not hard to put in and take out.
 
Does your 3.5t box have a wide grooms door at the back? The better makes have this, so in the event of a horse jumping the breast bar, there is at least a way to get them out of the box. (I'm presuming yours is rear facing). There have been several equine fatalities when horses have tried to exit through the narrow grooms doors favoured by certain manufacturers.

I admit to loathing the fixed breast bars with a passion, but I have known of people adding anti weave grilles to a fixed bar.This makes the best of a bad job, but I imagine you could only then travel with a partition in place.
 
The lorry I hire has an anti jump barrier fitted. It's a total physical and optical barrier in front of the horse. I wouldn't use a box without one of those tbh, the anti weave grills fill me with an extra kind of horror because if the horse is really determined to try and climb over, it wil get well and truly stuck in one of those.

There's a picture of the kind of barrier I'm familiar with on the traveltwo page http://traveltwo.webs.com/currentstock.htm

fairly close to the top, a red box sold in May. Keeps all the hay & dirt out of the groom area too.
 
it would be horribly expensive to change post build but we had our 3.5 ton designed so the horses heads are over the box(that forms an external tack locker each side) and then behind that is a solid wall(with a little door in to a changing cubicle at very back of lorry).

ones without the wall give me the heebie jeebies esp as Goof tried to climb on the tack locker on the way home(now rectified by a grill welded to top of partition and a full heigh head board that effectively stops the little ****** being able to see anything except his haynet!)

milliepops idea looks the most cost effective solution but still makes me cringe as i think anything like Goof would try and climb on top if really determined.
 
Sadly there have been a lot of accidents with theses 3.5 ton horseboxes were horses have tried to jump in to the grooms/tack area.
They are just too claustrophobic for horses which causes them to be become un-settled and panic.
The racing industry have been using small trucks for years but they have a custom built airy container put on top rather than having a conversion done on an existing van type vehicle.
There are far too many chancers building these vehicles from high mileage vans and not doing it properly. There only interest is to see a quick profit.
They should only be build from a vehicle that was a chassis pan cab that is a vehicle that was just manufactured with a cab and chassis so that the body could be added later. They are far stronger than a van giving far better protection in the event of an accident and allow a horse box of sufficient specifications and dimensions to be constructed on them.
 
OWLIE185 said:
Sadly there have been a lot of accidents with theses 3.5 ton horseboxes were horses have tried to jump in to the grooms/tack area.
They are just too claustrophobic for horses which causes them to be become un-settled and panic.
The racing industry have been using small trucks for years but they have a custom built airy container put on top rather than having a conversion done on an existing van type vehicle.
There are far too many chancers building these vehicles from high mileage vans and not doing it properly. There only interest is to see a quick profit.
They should only be build from a vehicle that was a chassis pan cab that is a vehicle that was just manufactured with a cab and chassis so that the body could be added later. They are far stronger than a van giving far better protection in the event of an accident and allow a horse box of sufficient specifications and dimensions to be constructed on them.
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Sadly I've witnessed such an accident with a 3.5T racing box. 8 year old horse, who'd traveled in the box countless times, tried to climb into the grooms area.
Horse was very determined. He didn't make it. No idea what the trigger was.The aftermath has put me off 3.5T's personally but it was particularly horrific.
I will add that the box was made in 2008 so maybe later versions are more airy (can't say that the old version wasn't though, to be fair).

Modifications have since been made to the box, including raising the breast bar, adding the anti weave grill and also widening the grooms door.
 
Urgh, this is def adding to my stress levels! Mine has the narrower grooms door. Owlie, it's not one of those that look like they've just made the horse box out of the original lorry, it's a proper conversion (Foxy Twin) and is light and airy, with a lot of space for the horses, so I don't think they'd feel claustrophobic. But a mental horse could def try and scramble over the breastbar. I only travel with a partition so an anti weave grill would be ok, and a removable one even better.

As for cost, am wondering though whether it's cheaper to convert mine with some form of solid bulkhead than to buy another one. Will chat to lorry repair man when he collects mine for it's plating. I love my little lorry and I've never had an issue so far but this does make me feel sick now !
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
milliepops idea looks the most cost effective solution but still makes me cringe as i think anything like Goof would try and climb on top if really determined.
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Oh absolutely, horses will always find a way to injure themselves. I've got one seasoned traveller who would sit in my car boot quite happily without incident, but she always tries to put her head under the partitions of big boxes if there's no tack locker in the way, so proves there's always something to stress over.

My nervous traveller is quite happy with the barrier, I think because she can't see past it, she doesn't see it as an escape route, and she's good at spotting the way out of any situation! :lol: I think it's the best compromise short of rebuilding completely.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
it would be horribly expensive to change post build but we had our 3.5 ton designed so the horses heads are over the box(that forms an external tack locker each side) and then behind that is a solid wall(with a little door in to a changing cubicle at very back of lorry).

ones without the wall give me the heebie jeebies esp as Goof tried to climb on the tack locker on the way home(now rectified by a grill welded to top of partition and a full heigh head board that effectively stops the little ****** being able to see anything except his haynet!)
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How much did this cost you to have done?

I've seen the Facebook post too but have also seen some of the comments about the anti-weave grills being used. Someone's horse apparently went over this too and it snapped and impaled the horse!
 
milliepops said:
The lorry I hire has an anti jump barrier fitted. It's a total physical and optical barrier in front of the horse. I wouldn't use a box without one of those tbh, the anti weave grills fill me with an extra kind of horror because if the horse is really determined to try and climb over, it wil get well and truly stuck in one of those.

There's a picture of the kind of barrier I'm familiar with on the traveltwo page http://traveltwo.webs.com/currentstock.htm

fairly close to the top, a red box sold in May. Keeps all the hay & dirt out of the groom area too.
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I absolutely love this idea and you quite possibly have solved all of my worries with my naughty traveller!

I know this isn't your box but do you know much more about these, i.e. where you can get them from, how much etc?
 
Thanks mp - I can't access that website from work but will check it out when I'm home, it may well be what I'm after. Does it add a lot to the weight do you know?

I've been googling new boxes/conversions and the prices are fairly eye watering!
 
muckypony said:
I absolutely love this idea and you quite possibly have solved all of my worries with my naughty traveller!

I know this isn't your box but do you know much more about these, i.e. where you can get them from, how much etc?
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I know! Am intrigued too. If you find any info., let me know.
 
milliepops is that barrier strong enough to support them should they go on top of it? It looks similar to how paddyandmonty fully boxed his in.

A friend has one with a full up and down wall and I do think I would go for that if possible although I do think Frank would appreciate a breech bar as the body space is very long for him (and it is obviously important you can reach your haynet! and he does get quite warm although on the camera is travelling fine. He was a bit of a tit in a friends with a half height wall the other day and I would never leave him in it unattended.
 
The full height wall looks safer but having looked at a LOT recently (trying to upgrade) I have been shocked by the small dimensions this leaves you, if you also have some living. The length I have been quoted is max 9'6 from bum to nose, and about 7'6 from bum to chest. I have run out of manufacturers who will make one as big as my old box, which has more than 4 foot of neck/head room.

That said, 9'6 is longer than most 7.5 tonne lorries have in width, even herringbone.
 
milliepops said:
Oh absolutely, horses will always find a way to injure themselves. I've got one seasoned traveller who would sit in my car boot quite happily without incident, but she always tries to put her head under the partitions of big boxes if there's no tack locker in the way, so proves there's always something to stress over.

My nervous traveller is quite happy with the barrier, I think because she can't see past it, she doesn't see it as an escape route, and she's good at spotting the way out of any situation! :lol: I think it's the best compromise short of rebuilding completely.
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they are all suicidal basket cases. despite knowing Goof cannot go anywhere now, it will be a long time before i stop anxiously asking NMT "whats he doing" every 30seconds the entire journey!!!!!!!

muckypony said:
How much did this cost you to have done?

I've seen the Facebook post too but have also seen some of the comments about the anti-weave grills being used. Someone's horse apparently went over this too and it snapped and impaled the horse!
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we bought the(brand new)chassis and designed the entire build so no break down of the way we did the wall im afraid. i think if you have a tame handyman, good with wood, who knows horses, you should be able to box the gap in strong enough for far far less than swapping the lorry.

the oakley 3.5 ton has just a plastic sheet on hooks that fits over the living area to keep hay out and that may deter the demi determined idle climbers but would obviously just cave in under anything that DID jump on it so then you have a horse in the living wrapped in a plastic sheet...................proper boxing in with wood is the only way to go IMO.
 
My idiot welsh went over the bar in a Rice Beaufort trailer. First time in his life he'd ever jumped anything, and he did 4' from a stand-still. :/

The cheap and easy solution is to cross-tie vertically. I.e. one rope to the normal ring, (stops him going under the bar), and one down to the bar itself which stops him if he tries to go up.
 
I had my fixed breast bar taken out and replaced with a removable one - cost under 200.00.

Mine is a van conversion ie not coach built, so have no worries with a narrow jockey door.

Therefore in an emergency the bar can be taken down, and horse let out the double back doors.
 
milliepops said:
The lorry I hire has an anti jump barrier fitted. It's a total physical and optical barrier in front of the horse. I wouldn't use a box without one of those tbh, the anti weave grills fill me with an extra kind of horror because if the horse is really determined to try and climb over, it wil get well and truly stuck in one of those.
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Is this the design you refer to?

image.jpg1_zpsho6wft2b.jpg


Surely a horse can still get its front legs up on the barrier? Tbh, I'm not really convinced. I still prefer the long stall design, which IMHO is safer for the horses, but leaves less space for tack etc.
 
I've got a 3.5t with a full wall between the horse and tack area which means they don't even think about trying to jump over the breast bar. It suits me well as I don't need a massive tack area, it means I don't end up with hay over everything and because my boy is a compact 15.2ish the shorter length in the horse area doesn't pose a problem and I usually only take him anyway because of the payload limit.

A friend has an almost identical lorry to mine (same chassis) but has the more traditional layout and her horse did try to scramble over the breast bar and damaged both himself (no permanent injuries thank goodness) and the lorry. I personally would always try for a lorry with a full wall between horse and tack areas although I can see how it could be a bit tight for a bigger, longer built horse than my little chap.
 
muckypony said:
I absolutely love this idea and you quite possibly have solved all of my worries with my naughty traveller!

I know this isn't your box but do you know much more about these, i.e. where you can get them from, how much etc?
Click to expand...

Bernster said:
Thanks mp - I can't access that website from work but will check it out when I'm home, it may well be what I'm after. Does it add a lot to the weight do you know?

I've been googling new boxes/conversions and the prices are fairly eye watering!
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Sorry both, not been back to HHO since yesterday afternoon. TravelTwo horseboxes will retro-fit them into boxes, as I asked when I first started looking around for a box for myself. I expect any handy lorry builder could knock something up to your spec if you asked. It's not an off-the-shelf product, it would be bespoke to your box.

ester said:
milliepops is that barrier strong enough to support them should they go on top of it? It looks similar to how paddyandmonty fully boxed his in.

A friend has one with a full up and down wall and I do think I would go for that if possible although I do think Frank would appreciate a breech bar as the body space is very long for him .
Click to expand...

TBH I don't know that one specifically would support a huge big horse as I've not seen the box in person. but the one I borrow is all constructed from checkerplate so pretty sturdy. For me the main thing is it's a deterrent *to my horses*, I know them pretty well and I can see from their reactions that they haven't contemplated up & over as an option. One turned fully around to face the other way once when she got in a tizz, god knows how as the partition was closed! That must have been difficult enough so I'm confident that as she chose to do THAT, she didn't want scramble up the breast bar.

The breast bar is very high anyway, and the full visual barrier on top does the trick :)

It's all personal to the user and the horse isn't it? I don't like the look of the long stall ones without a breast bar, I know my 2 have leaned on them a couple of times and I wouldn't like to think they woudl have bashed their heads without one.
 
I think the horse-over-breastbar thing in 3.5t lorries has been blown way out of proportion on the internet. Personally, I've witnessed several incidents of horses going over the breastbar in Ifor Williams-type trailers, and none in 3.5t boxes.
I have one with removable breast bar and double rear doors, so getting the horse out that way would be an option in the case or an emergency. That said, the breast bar is attached internally with antiluce fasteners, so you'd still have to get close to the horse to open the fasteners (unlike the new Ifor Williams type breastbars you can unscrew from the outside of the trailer).
When I got the box, I made sure never to have the rear door open when the horse is loaded. I think it is just common sense that the horse shouldn't get the wrong idea which direction the exit is, particularly at the beginning when he's still unfamiliar with the box, or maybe with a horse used to unloading in front from a trailer. So far he's made no attempt at all to try and climb over the back.

I wouldn't like anti-weave bars, as he likes to travel close to herring-bone style, standing at a slight angle. The anti weave bar would force his head to stay centered.
 
I do agree up to a point supsup, and I think we see these things more now because of social media etc but for me, it's one of those things where I have to minimise the risk or I'd never forgive myself in an accident. I like the removable breast bars, I think that's a great idea. I do wish you could drop the whole thing from outside like on the ifors - that's not a new thing, it's just you needed an allen key in the past. The new fastenings look much quicker and easier to use.

It's always been a problem though hasn't it? Not so long ago there seemed to be a spate of people getting the tack lockers taken out of their 7.5t lorries because horses were climbing on top of them. You can't control everything, but I like to try and address a risk when I can see one.
 
I totally agree with those who have said have a full wall put in. I had a mare jump over the partition into the living but she somehow managed to get herself back using the seat! There were hoof marks on my jockey door....
I sold that lorry & bought one with a full wall but with tack lockers.....other horse decided it was funny to stand on those.......
A friend had one with the weaving grills which solved the jumping over problem but the mare hated travelling with her head in one position. I think she felt trapped. It was also a logistical nightmare as you have to thread your arm through the bars to tie them up as you load - fastest way to a broken wrist!! Also, putting the bridle on could be interesting as the mare thought it was funny to pull her head back to the other side of the grills so she was out of reach :D
I now have one with a full wall, high partition & no breast bar.... Watch this space for an update on what my horses have thought to do next ;)
 
supsup said:
I think the horse-over-breastbar thing in 3.5t lorries has been blown way out of proportion on the internet. Personally, I've witnessed several incidents of horses going over the breastbar in Ifor Williams-type trailers, and none in 3.5t boxes.
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I'm afraid that you may be a little complacent about 3.5t boxes. Horses will always get into pickles when travellling (or indeed at any other time ;) ), and unfortunately some 3.5t boxes are poorly designed, and the horse is trapped if it goes over the bar.

I'm especially pernickety about the ease of releasing a panicking horse. The late chesnut git, who despite his many quirks was a rock solid traveller, decided one day to come over the front bar of my Ifor 510. He was 22 at the time! We were handily parked at the vets (he was only there as companion to a nervous traveller!).

He ended up straddled over the bar, hanging with his hind legs suspended off the floor. We got him out and down the front ramp in minutes, as Ifors are designed so that you can release the breast and breech bars from outside. The assembled audience of vets, nurses, stable staff and other clients were utterly impressed at how easy it was to get him out (and without trashing the trailer). They'd seen many other cases of trapped horses without such an easy release sytem, and with much serious consquences for horse and lorry.
 
I'm now really unsure what to do for the best! Ill chat to the guy who does my lorry about what I could do with it, but might also have a look at some 3.5t newer conversions with the solid wall and see how they compare. I can see them being more claustrophobic if there is less space, but less for them to injure themselves on if the do.
 
I have had some additional bars put into mine that are adjustable after I discussed this issue with the lorry's builder. I will take some pictures later today and post them. I looked at the weave grills but would consider mesh ones rather than the bar type. The lorry builder felt the bars were a better option.
 
The Bouncing Bog Trotter said:
I have had some additional bars put into mine that are adjustable after I discussed this issue with the lorry's builder. I will take some pictures later today and post them. I looked at the weave grills but would consider mesh ones rather than the bar type. The lorry builder felt the bars were a better option.
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. Thanks that would be really helpful.
 
One of our horses has gone over the breast bar in our 3.5t lorry.

Horse and lorry were actually borrow by a friend at the time, so that was a call she really didn't want to make!!

My sister and I never ever leave the horses unattended in the lorry. Sadly she did and 16hh chunky warmblood was then found still tied up, munching hay standing in the grooms bit looking quite happy, but a bit confused.

We have subsequently had the breast bar amended so ours does unscrew from the outside and can be lowered.

That was 3 years ago, and it has not been needed.

Horse was perfectly fine, but there is a small dent in the roof , I am guessing from his head.

Way I look at it is travelling any horse in anything is always a risk, it's just a case of minimising it. Worst thing that's happened to ours (same horse too!) was a fall down one of the steeper ramps on a 7.5t lorry.
 
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