Jumping position: difficult on one specific horse?

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Lolo

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Al has been having a bit of a think. If you've been hearing some funny noises recently, that's probably it ;) (sorry Al!)

She's been jumping Lily a bit more, and been studying old videos of her riding Bee and Reggie, and even older footage from back in the day (!).

On every horse other than Reg, her jumping position is natural and in the right place generally. She doesn't do funky elbows, her lower leg remains pretty much stock still and it's all natural and easy.

On Reg, she has to work for her position over the fences. Especially SJ. She can't just let it happen, because that way her hands and elbows chicken off, and her leg slips. So 3 years in, she can be 'right' over the fences with him, but she still has problems. But she's been jumping Lily for about 5 sessions now, and finds it easy?

Could it be Reg's conformation that makes him harder to sit? He is very short coupled for his height (takes the same rugs as my old 15.1hh did, despite being 16.3hh, and the max. saddle length he can take is 17.5"...) but has a pretty normal length neck. This has always made him easier to ride, because it's not like steering a tank round the Serpentine, but could it be a contributing factor?

Here are some videos, trying to show it off!

Reg, Lt. Downham:
[youtube]CpVaVie8KOE[/youtube]
This probably shows off how Al struggles to keep her equilibrium. I think she manages, but she says she has to work hard for it all the way.

In contrast, this is her today on Lily:
[youtube]JJx9i9nCK3Q[/youtube]
(super pingy pony, those barrels are BIG! She's a bit rocket fuelled atm, but it's nice she's so keen- she had a bit of a tough time last year with someone who made her scared of her mouth, but she's got her mojo well and truly back)

And some photos (these are direct links):
http://www.theimagefile.com/?skin=309&Action=VF&id=9268334202&pcp=41&ppwd=43474xnt
Bee, SJ.

http://www.theimagefile.com/?skin=309&Action=VF&id=9268476002&pcp=21&ppwd=43474xnt
and
http://www.colin-allison.com/equus-imaging.com/HT/BM0312/SESJ/bm0312besesj0463.html
Reg, SJ. Height makes no odds, and you can see where she's struggling. It's odd, because in footage, it doesn't look bad. XC, she's usually spot on which is even more confusing!

(in case anyone thinks I'm being a mean sister, this has been posted on her request!)
 
Actually, her position looks better on Reg, when she gets it right.

She does exactly what Im bad at: she doesn't commit enough to the position. Keeps very close to the saddle and sits up very quickly. Mines mostly due to jumping dirty jumpers but also a lack of practise and stability in a extreme jumping position.

Its not noticeable until on something with a huge powerful jump (like Reg) that needs the commited position.

Does she have lessons with an instructor who works on HER, not the horse? There's a really good instructor in central.Scotland, depending on where you are.
 
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Personally i think and it's difficult to see on the first video I feel that Reg need a better quality canter rounder more enaged and more punchy he looks behind the leg I think that's why she struggling with him .
The second horse ( she's very cute ) is naturally bouncey and full of energy and therefore much easier to ride.
Going XC he probally carrys himself forward more and stays in front of the leg easier.
 
I know that my position is horrific on Fergs (especially when he's jumping like a special!) but not nearly so bad on "normal" horses - so I can see how Al might find certain horses more tricky than others... But I am by no means expert enough to judge!
 
I forgot to put this video in, which is the most recent lesson (way back- Reg is currently only just starting cantering after his holiday!).
[youtube]miV_PSLBVxQ[/youtube]

In terms of lessons, her lessons on the flat and over fences focus almost solely on how she is riding and how that is effecting the horse. So if the canter isn't 'enough', then her instructor is pushing her to find the way to ride for a better canter. And when it's right on Reggie, it's considerably easier to be in the right place, but even then she's working really hard to be there. Whereas with all the others she rides it just happens so?
 
I wonder if the saddle is a contributory factor? I couldn't see much on the video, but I assume you are talking about her lower leg swinging bck in the photos? It seems to me that she has a very good fold on Bee and Lily, sliding her bottom back in the saddle to fold in half, hence keeping her lower leg secure. Does Reg's saddle prevent her from doing that, by being a bit deeper and higher in the cantle, which mucks up her fold and results in her swinging her leg back as she eases her body forward? Just a musing, really... Can't agree with Kallibear, btw, sorry :o
 
It's the same saddle on Lily and Reg (rip off version of the Albion K2), only she did think that wasn't helping anymore and it's been replaced with the same model as Bee's (Albion Legend 5000 XC saddle). Last year, we thought that was most likely the case, as regardless of what shapes Bee threw Al found it easy enough to stay useful to her, but on Reg the smallest change made it really hard. Only Lily uses Reg's saddle and she's easy to ride well.

It can't be levels of schooling either, because Bee is a totally blank canvas, Lily is a well-schooled and experienced horse and Reg is just a few steps behind Lily...

And yes, the lower leg is the biggest problem. Between fences, she's very stable though?
 
To add: sorry if it sounds like I'm making excuses or avoiding answers! I'm really not, we're just beyond stumped. If Al did the same on all the horses, that would be easier and she'd just have to improve universally. But no. She has to be difficult and only struggle on one horse, the horse she has ridden the most and knows the best :rolleyes: :D
 
Stumped then. The only thing I would say is that to me on the video (only watched the first Reg one and the Lily one, sorry!) her position was at its best after he had had his stop, when she was riding a little more defensively - but then probably that was when she was working at it hardest, not wishing to be unceremoniously dumped, so it doesn't really help!
 
To me her position ie lower leg specifically seems much better when she rides the mare who is taking her to the fence, in the vid Reg doesn't seem to be taking her so she is working harder, hence lower leg further back? just my opinion and what do I know?
 
I am so glad this isn't just me! Some horses (such as Jem) I seem to just be able to stay in balance with them over a fence with no thought about it. However on Pickle I feel all to pot and really struggle position wise. I either sit up too early, or too late on landing. I thought I was just being particularly dense, but now you mention it he is very short coupled (even 17" saddles are too big for him), whereas Jem is long and rangy (sp?).

Kallibear said:
Actually, her position looks better on Reg, when she gets it right.

She does exactly what Im bad at: she doesn't commit enough to the position. Keeps very close to the saddle and sits up very quickly. Mines mostly due to jumping dirty jumpers but also a lack of practise and stability in a extreme jumping position.

Its not noticeable until on something with a huge powerful jump (like Reg) that needs the commited position.

Does she have lessons with an instructor who works on HER, not the horse? There's a really good instructor in central.Scotland, depending on where you are.
Click to expand...

Kallibear could you explain this a little more (particularly the bit about committing to the position), as I think it may be a very big short coming of mine (just a paragraph, if you start naming individual muscles and multiple cores you will loose me :p) Thanks :).
 
TableDancer said:
Stumped then. The only thing I would say is that to me on the video (only watched the first Reg one and the Lily one, sorry!) her position was at its best after he had had his stop, when she was riding a little more defensively - but then probably that was when she was working at it hardest, not wishing to be unceremoniously dumped, so it doesn't really help!
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Al thinks you're actually right about saddles, because whilst it's the same saddle it sits differently on Lily. It's lower at the back so she can slide back better. If that's the case, the shiny new (ish) saddle might be the most easy solution ever found...

ETA: Reg and Al have a slightly potted SJ history, so she is a bit defensive on him. He also used to scoot off after the fence so she's had to work very hard on landing and not catching his mouth.
 
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charlimouse said:
Kallibear could you explain this a little more (particularly the bit about committing to the position), as I think it may be a very big short coming of mine (just a paragraph, if you start naming individual muscles and multiple cores you will loose me :p) Thanks :).
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It's basically being too conservative with the position and lack stability in a very 'extreme' jumping position.

Many people (me included) due lack of practise, bad habit, lack of confidence in the horse etc, don't fold enough and nor get their bum out the saddle enough. They push their bum back and close to the saddle and don't get their shoulders down enough. When you take a pic of them mid air or starting to land, they're already sitting up. You get away with it on an easy-jumping horse but on a big jumping horse with a lot of power or a big punch (often because their approach lacks bounce) they either throw themselves up the neck to compensate (and the legs swing back) or they get left a little behind and have to over-give with the reins to stop themselves socking the horse in the mouth.

This is the extreme I mean. Most people don't jump that kind of height but on a horse with a hell of a punch, you need to be in a much 'tighter' neater position like that. Most people would either be leaning further forwards up the neck (so the legs swing back) or bum further back so you end up having to throw the reins away. It takes a hell if a lot of stability and core strength to hold it

http://www.showrider.com/randall%20z%20sm%20butterfly%20ox2.j

Image far too big. Hang on a sec....
 
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See Kallibear, that's where we differ (can't see the image btw, sorry, just going on your description)...

I agree that many/most people don't fold enough, they rotate from a point somewhere around the saddle, without folding/bending in the middle - so the body tips forward, the legs slip back. This is obviously very unstable so the last ingredient is that, because they feel insecure, they fix the hands at the wither to give them an anchor point and some support - thus they load the front end of the horse, while still not giving it the freedom of its head and neck! A huge bugbear of mine.

To me, a good fold is where you do indeed slide your seat back and literally fold in the middle, thus your centre of gravity remains unchanged, your leg position remains secure and you can slide your hands as far or as little up the neck as you choose for the type of release you are riding, but they are not required for your own stability. In this instance, the seat does stay close to (but not in) the saddle. An extreme example is if you look at photos of Lucinda Green - she is very supple in the hips and has an excellent fold.

In addition, I have always been taught that you should indeed "open the angle" on the descent from a fence, ie open the angle between your body and the horse's neck in order to stay in balance on landing, and the bigger the fence the more important it is to perfect this skill so as not to land in a heap on your horse's neck. It's not a question of sitting DOWN in the saddle, but of sitting UP, your seat can be as light as you like. I trained at Waterstock with a Swedish master named Lars Sederholm, who was a complete guru at the time, and our head lad was Yogi Breisner. Both Lars and Yogi used to spend literally hours lungeing us poor souls over a fence, with jockey length stirrups and our arms out to the side, (us not them :p) shouting "OPEN THE ANGLE" as we landed.

I am sooo not picking a fight by the way, Kallibear, just thought it would be interesting to highlight the fundamental differences between the way your trainer is approaching the jump position and the way that I do :)

ETA: Btw, Lars was not purely an eventing trainer he trained SJ to World Class level as well - in fact, he is the architect of the current BS training methodology...
 
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Opening the angle (but not landing your bum in the saddle!) is a pretty important skill to aquire once you start to jump bigger fences. My own horses don't jump any great height but I have come a cropper more than once, having been plonked on some poor beast to pop it down a sizeable grid, and whilst managing the fold no bother, failing to appreciate the effort required to land somewhere vaguely over the horse's centre of gravity.

Is Reg stronger/less soft in the hand when SJing compared to the mare?
 
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You've just reminded me of the photo I wanted to demonstrate : Lucinda Greene.

312362_10152488418555437_675339528_n.jpg


Bum is up and OUT the saddle, not back and close like many do. However she has an extreme fold in the middle and therefore not thrown herself up the neck ( the other thing most people do).

Agreed you obviously need to open out on landing but many people sit up too fast. See how in the mid picture she's still significantly folded even though the horse has already started to drop? And by the final pic most people would be sitting vertically upright already and braced their legs against the stirrups to land.

That's what I mean by needing to get the bum out the saddle more, fold much more and not sit up too quickly. As my instructor keep telling me 'commit and bloody stay there!' :o
 
Might be worth trying different saddles.

What about a lesson on a mechanical horse? Getting a gait analysis done with rider on board?
 
loobylu said:
Opening the angle (but not landing your bum in the saddle!) is a pretty important skill to aquire once you start to jump bigger fences. My own horses don't jump any great height but I have come a cropper more than once, having been plonked on some poor beast to pop it down a sizeable grid, and whilst managing the fold no bother, failing to appreciate the effort required to land somewhere vaguely over the horse's centre of gravity.

Is Reg stronger/less soft in the hand when SJing compared to the mare?
Click to expand...

He's much less in the hand- he's in a happy mouth snaffle with a lozenge in, whereas after a bit of playing Lily is now in a waterford snaffle. Al has to ride him quite forwards to get him into the contact SJ. Lily and Bee are more forwards and go into the hand more confidently.

TableDancer, the types of jealous Al is of you now is impressive!
 
Lolo said:
He's much less in the hand- he's in a happy mouth snaffle with a lozenge in, whereas after a bit of playing Lily is now in a waterford snaffle. Al has to ride him quite forwards to get him into the contact SJ. Lily and Bee are more forwards and go into the hand more confidently.

TableDancer, the types of jealous Al is of you now is impressive!
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Hmm, no idea then! If he requires more riding to take her forwards, is she perhaps having to sit up more/quicker in order to ride him on to the next fence? Whereas the more forwards mare would land already thinking and moving forwards so rider 'just' needs to stay with the horse rather than drive? Even on the flat it's easier to ride tidily on a horse who's primary thought is always forwards.
 
I think when a horse takes you to a fence it is much easier to have a good position than one that makes you work to get to the fence. Als position gets better once she has had a stop and gets after him, and therefore he takes her to the fence a bit more... Saddles will make a massive difference too, the less blocks and flatter seat the better, as you have to learn to balance yourself, and not create "false" balance by using blocks to hold you in :)
 
loobylu said:
Hmm, no idea then! If he requires more riding to take her forwards, is she perhaps having to sit up more/quicker in order to ride him on to the next fence? Whereas the more forwards mare would land already thinking and moving forwards so rider 'just' needs to stay with the horse rather than drive? Even on the flat it's easier to ride tidily on a horse who's primary thought is always forwards.
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That would make sense, and yes- Lily and Bee are more forward than Reg. It would also explain why the XC was so much easier. Lots to work on!

KatB said:
I think when a horse takes you to a fence it is much easier to have a good position than one that makes you work to get to the fence. Als position gets better once she has had a stop and gets after him, and therefore he takes her to the fence a bit more... Saddles will make a massive difference too, the less blocks and flatter seat the better, as you have to learn to balance yourself, and not create "false" balance by using blocks to hold you in :)
Click to expand...

Hopefully the new saddle will help. The current one is not blocky (she really dislikes blocky saddles, as they never fit and hold her wrong) but the new one has a very flat seat and the only blocks are at the top of the thigh. Which is part of the reason she loves it!

Lots to work on. I wonder if the saddle being high behind isn't helping with the poles, because as he lands and she sits up, the saddle is higher up and knocks against her bum onto his back?
 
I think he's not flowing either to or over the fences, so she's having to really work to get him going and also to stay exactly in balance with him, because he's not continuing in the way one would expect. Hard to explain. The mare is flowing forward more and so is easier to stay with. The saddle might make a bit of difference but not much imho.
I think she needs to be really strict and get him in front of the leg, whatever it takes, and then keep him there without working hard, and then her innate nice position will be able to show again. Sort of a bit of 'short sharp shock' treatment to impress him so he stays in front of her, if that makes sense.
 
What about if she drops her stirrups a whole on Reg? I only watched the first minute or two of the lesson but she's really struggling to get him going. At one point (she's in the middle of the school) her whole body tilts trying to get him moving. Then as she comes near the camera her legs are curling up and back as she's (sorry Al) nagging at his sides to try and keep him moving.

I have the same problem with one of mine at home, she can be extremely lazy and my legs curl up or do something daft trying to keep any sort of momentum I can, whereas in the ring she's naturally more forward and everything comes together more.

Tbh if I was her instructor I think I'd be working at getting him a lot more off her leg. He needs to go forward now, and carry on until she says so. I had a couple of sessions of - ask, no response, short sharp smack on the bum - until she learnt that she must go when told. After that she was actually very polite with her self carraige too.

So i think that if the whole motion was more forwards she'd be able to keep her leg stiller.

I think she is working so hard to keep him going that when he throws a big pop it's harder to have the perfectly balanced position as she's already out of balance? Bee and Lily are more forwards so its more about keeping a steady leg/contact so she isnt out of balance before she gets to the jump.

Sorry if that's completely wrong!

Also, learning to 'close the angle' is something to definately be worked on, but there is a danger of sitting up too quick. It stops the horse finishing off behind properly if you sit up over/too quick.
 
Haven't got anything constructive to say, but I can sympathise having experienced a horse who I just couldn't seem to stick on properly! She had a much more powerful jump than I was used to and I ended up getting flicked right off on one occasion :o
 
kerilli said:
I think he's not flowing either to or over the fences, so she's having to really work to get him going and also to stay exactly in balance with him, because he's not continuing in the way one would expect. Hard to explain. The mare is flowing forward more and so is easier to stay with. The saddle might make a bit of difference but not much imho.
I think she needs to be really strict and get him in front of the leg, whatever it takes, and then keep him there without working hard, and then her innate nice position will be able to show again. Sort of a bit of 'short sharp shock' treatment to impress him so he stays in front of her, if that makes sense.
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That makes sense. It's something they've worked very hard on on the flat, as he was the same. Now, he's considerably more forwards and willingly so. I wonder if their confidence knock SJ means Al is less willing to really attack the fences, but once he's stopped she has to go for it a bit more...

showjumpingfilly said:
What about if she drops her stirrups a whole on Reg? I only watched the first minute or two of the lesson but she's really struggling to get him going. At one point (she's in the middle of the school) her whole body tilts trying to get him moving. Then as she comes near the camera her legs are curling up and back as she's (sorry Al) nagging at his sides to try and keep him moving.

I have the same problem with one of mine at home, she can be extremely lazy and my legs curl up or do something daft trying to keep any sort of momentum I can, whereas in the ring she's naturally more forward and everything comes together more.

Tbh if I was her instructor I think I'd be working at getting him a lot more off her leg. He needs to go forward now, and carry on until she says so. I had a couple of sessions of - ask, no response, short sharp smack on the bum - until she learnt that she must go when told. After that she was actually very polite with her self carraige too.

So i think that if the whole motion was more forwards she'd be able to keep her leg stiller.

I think she is working so hard to keep him going that when he throws a big pop it's harder to have the perfectly balanced position as she's already out of balance? Bee and Lily are more forwards so its more about keeping a steady leg/contact so she isnt out of balance before she gets to the jump.

Sorry if that's completely wrong!

Also, learning to 'close the angle' is something to definately be worked on, but there is a danger of sitting up too quick. It stops the horse finishing off behind properly if you sit up over/too quick.
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I think you're right. Although stirrups can't go down much more- they look short because she's not tremendously tall, but he is rather enormous. When transferred to Lily, the stirrups stay the same and look less like she's going jockey style!

Thank you everyone, lot to work on for this season. I'll do an update soon :D
 
Really interesting thread - I have exactly the same problem swapping from one to the other.
For those above who talk about needing to work on the ability to close the angle, and not stand up/lean back too far on landing, any useful exercises to work on this?
 
I have a pretty rubbish jump position on Andy, hands are too far forward and legs too far back. Weirdly on every other horse I ride at work my position is fine. I think
 
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