Jumping small for long periods ruins the jump

LEC

LEC

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Just wondering if anyone has any views on the above?

Just came out from a conversation with a professional trainer and horse producer. I was told not to muck around at BE90 and to only do one as it will ruin my horses jump and he needed something to make him try.

I have to say one of the worst horses I rode a couple of years ago was used to jumping tiny fences (2'6 max) and felt terrible when he was asked to jump 3ft plus even though he clearly had enough ability.
 
The jumping small mindset is something that I'm trying to get out of.
For me it's not to do lots of competitions at 2'6" which for me then makes a BE 90 feel like a big step.
I found with my last lad that jumping lots of 2'6" made his technique poor & he was never able to back up to a bigger class again.
 
I think it depends entirely on the horse and how it is ridden. Trouble is many riders, myself included are not disciplined enough to ride with the same attitude to a 2' fence as they do to a 4' fence.

Good, conscientious riders who ride properly may have less of a problem. I know many SJers simply don't do big fences at home, they save it for shows and only use small fences at home to keep the discipline and gymnastic ability without putting too much strain on the legs :)
 
Tim Stockdale said in a lect/demo that horses don't have to try over tiny fences (below elbow height, i think he said) so to get the poles up more, using lots of placing poles etc to make you more accurate if necessary.
BUT it does depend on the rider's confidence. if you ride better at BE90, i think you're better doing those until you feel ready to do bigger. but if you're happy doing BE100, i'd crack on.
 
I think it's a bit of a relative term. I know lots of upper level horses that hardly jump at all at home . . . but then they are already upper level horses! Ditto sj'ers - they usually don't jump competition height at home but "small" can mean 1.10+. The also don't jump a bunch of really small stuff, the start at whatever height the horse starts to make a bit of an effort and actually jump, rather than step over it. I've more than once had better riders come to try a horse for sale or assess it to take on and start a young horse at the height I'd probably end a session on! Depressingly, the horses are usually fine with it (allowing that the riders can likely tell almost immediately which will be and which won't be, and have the personal confidence in their abilities to ask without doubt), which always makes me feel like I baby them.

In a "do as I say, not as I do" moment I'd say, yes, very true. It's what I was taught and it's been my experience that jumping lots of little jumps does not necessarily improve or prepare a horse for higher stuff. (This does not apply to horses that are struggling mentally or physically with smaller obstacles, of course! If you are building confidence you have to keep the jumps small enough that the horse can ALWAYS jump out of trouble!) It's a question of mechanics, if you think about it, as horses jump differently when they're making an effort and that's what you need to train for, both physically and mentally. There are only so many jumps in a horse and it stands to reason if you waste them unnecessarily you won't get as far/progress as quickly.

Even if the rider is very disciplined, some horses can just not be asked over small fences. The flip side is many older horses, with limitations or who doubt their rider a bit, can be VERY clear on how high they are prepared to go but will do more immediately with someone more skilled.

So short answer, the horse has to be making an effort.

The qualifier is most riders need to jump more than their horses do. Jumping fences towards the outside of the horse's ability very often obviously carries greater risks, especially if you also have to allow for less than perfect footing and repetition for rider errors. So it can be a conundrum. This is why some barns that train Equitation riders for the big US competitions keep "practice horses" which can jump the height but probably aren't fancy enough for top competition, so that riders can keep their eye in without jumping the legs off their own horses.
 
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Jumping low fences are for training and routine.
Higher fences are for pushing the boundaries (youngsters) and condition and fitness (older horses)
Both are useful,but if a horse has the jump,neither can ruin it unless the rider is bad......
'Opinion,not fact'
 
I think that's ridiculous. I think you will ruin the jump more if you lose yours and your horses confidence. Stick to what is comfortable until you want the challenge of something bigger and your horse wants it too.
 
Hmm, yes and no in a training scenario. Certainly some horses can get complacent if not challenged a bit, but then again, there are lots of exercises, grids, etc, that are useful even if very little. But then again, you wouldn't be doing these all the time.... so yes and no ;)
 
I dont know you or your horse but do know the trainer and would think that he feels you are more than able to move up.
I see where he is coming from to some extent, often horses that have ability and scope need to be able to use it in order to gain confidence, BE 90 is not going to test the horse and possibly cause it to lack respect over the fences once fully fit, you can always do a 100 then drop back if you feel the need.
 
I would have to agree with that theory, however it all depends on the horse/rider combo as to when you would advance.

I was chatting to my new farrier who is an A grade SJer about my young horse and a competition we went to recently. I said I just put him in the small stuff (ie 70cm) and the farrier replied with "Oh, like the 1m class?". Oh dear... :p

In the case of my new fellow, he is not intimidated by height so I have upped the fences in schooling a bit to see how he handles it. I really do think it is important to get them up in the air and actually assesing how much effort will need to made to clear the jump. They are creatures of habit so keeping them at the same height and effort level could mean a habit that's hard to break in the future!
 
I know I dont really jump what most people would call big :o. But saying that I find that the yellow pony is much more focused and less likley to have a paddy about a filler if the jumps are arround 3ft. If we now go in a 2'6 or similar he just finds reasons to spook or stop where as when he needs to think about what he is jumping he is much better.

Having said that a jumping isntructor I know said that horses only have a limited number of big jumps they can do before they break so why waste them in training if you know the horse can jump the height, when you can achieve similar things with smaller jumps that place much less wear and tear on the horse.
 
dafthoss said:
Having said that a jumping isntructor I know said that horses only have a limited number of big jumps they can do before they break so why waste them in training if you know the horse can jump the height, when you can achieve similar things with smaller jumps that place much less wear and tear on the horse.
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Or are they more likely to break if they're not [physiologically] used to jumping those sorts of heights?
 
JFTD said:
Or are they more likely to break if they're not [physiologically] used to jumping those sorts of heights?
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Yeah that had crossed my mind :confused:. Not something I have given that much thought to though as I need to do plently of practice at home to get him comfortable at a bigger height before we venture out :rolleyes:.
 
dafthoss said:
Yeah that had crossed my mind :confused:. Not something I have given that much thought to though as I need to do plently of practice at home to get him comfortable at a bigger height before we venture out :rolleyes:.
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I suspect that the answer would be, as with most things, that it's a compromise between fitness/physiological conditioning and not over-doing it at home.

But yes, totally agree. No way in heck I'm jumping the heights F seems to be capable of competitively. It would be an EPIC fail :cool:
 
It's happened a bit with my youngster, my mum - who is very old school is slightly horrified that I would jump 2ft 3 courses on him more than once.

A year ago he was making an amazing shape over a fence and wouldn't touch a pole. Having spent a year popping round small courses for one reason or another, he is much more complacent, and just jumps them rather than giving an amazing feeling.

I remember going to see a professional trainer years ago and he was trotting a 4 year old into a single pole which much have been 4ft. Horse was really learning to use itself and would have gone straight in to Newc/Fox probs. V different to us amteurs.

I am highly reassured by LouiseM's post though and shall probs now spend a year at 2ft 6/9.
 
This is a very interesting thread.. I am inclined to agree with this theory. I've got a 17hh 6 yo who I took round BE90s last year and he was great xc but our SJ was always a bit hit and miss and he often chipped in a short stride and had a pole here and there. I also had SJ lessons and the height never went above 1m.
I took him round the BE90 at T/down the other week to give him his first run and he was fab XC, very bold and again he chipped in a few strides in the SJ and we had a pole. By the end of last seaons I was out schooling xc over PN and the odd N and he was fine and I've pushed the height of the SJ up in the school and I'm yet to faze him.
I decided to go and see another rider for a few lessons who I know would put them up and I've entered Goring 100 because he feels more than ready. I've since gone out and Sj at 1m and 1.10m and the difference is amazing (we've had him up to 1.20 courses and he still isn't that bothered). He's certainly becoming more athletic but his aproach his different, he respects the fences more, no more chipping in these horrid strides and he sits right back on his bum and feels like a real horse. I have to say going on this I think there is def truth in this. He is a big horse though so BE90 does feel a lot smaller on Winnie to when I go round it on a little 16hh very fine tb I ride.

I'm also fully aware a better rider probably wouldn't have those horrid strides to the smaller fences..
 
I've been having the same considerations lately. My horse is more than capable over the bigger jumps and in fact only really makes a shape once we're jumping 90cm + - and he only REALLY starts to operate at the 1m10 mark. However, as I'm a numpty who needs to learn how to ride properly, I keep us jumping small (70-90cm), and having seen the pictures from our rounds on Sunday, he's just sort of cantering over the jumps, rather than jumping them. I worry that I'm ruining his technique. But, on the scale of things that's probably better than ruining his confidence as a result of me missing at a big fence. Though funnily enough we never end up on dodgy strides to big fences. Think he helps me out a lot :o
 
louisem said:
Jumping low fences are for training and routine.
Higher fences are for pushing the boundaries (youngsters) and condition and fitness (older horses)
Both are useful,but if a horse has the jump,neither can ruin it unless the rider is bad......
'Opinion,not fact'
Click to expand...

I agree with this.

I don't think jumping small ruins the horses jump at all, surely it is better it is confident? It's all relative but theres no point in me jumping 4ft plus all the time when I only want to compete around a metre.

I do think when the fences are small the horse can step over them to clear them and not have to try if they don't want to but every horse Iv'e had if you then put up something bigger where they have to jump they do. They aren't stupid.
I think jumping big on a horse that overjumps small fences can ruin their confidence as they try to overjump the big ones in the same way and give themselves a right fright.

A good jumping horse IMO is one who can adjust itself to the height of the fence wether thats 2ft6 or 4ft6 and give enough room to clear it but not so much room that they are wasting time and energy.

I think comments like that are made by professionals who have top level competing in mind. For us mere mortals what the hell does it matter as long as the horse does what we want it to do. A horse that jumps 2ft6 regularly doesn't ruin its jump thats a load of rubbish. If it can't jump bigger than 2ft6 after jumping 2ft6 for a while then it could never jump it in the first place IMO or it has a rubbish rider.
 
I think to some extent this is true, although a horse thats jumped nothing but small fences in grids etc is going to have a much better jump than one thats just jumped single teeny fences with no structure.
 
I do think the comment was very specific though, not about horses that over jump or have confidence issues or will do a more all around job, but about producing horses to ultimately jump at a high level. It also doesn't apply to horses that have/can jump at a high level. It was only towards the fact that some horses have to learn to jump fences that really make them make an effort and that jumping lots and lots of smaller ones is not necessarily productive, especially on a horse that's dialling it in over smaller stuff. The OP was asking about moving a horse up and the reply was in that context, that if he's ready to move up he should and that keeping him indefinitely at a lower level might even be counter productive.
 
Having sat on a horse who had lost its jump and it was terrifying as it did not use its backside properly because it was so used to not having to.

Confidence issues are different but long term if you kept a 16hh+ horse at 2'6 and under I think you would see the results in a worse jump.

With my own horse I think I was told this to stop me piddling about in my perfectionist comfort zone.
 
From my personal experience, my instructor has said exactly the same to me!!!

My mare does not make an effort / shape over 90cm but is much better over 1.05+.

But the issue here is as much my confidence and felling ready to move up rather than the horses.
 
Stencilface said:
Good, conscientious riders who ride properly may have less of a problem. I know many SJers simply don't do big fences at home, they save it for shows and only use small fences at home to keep the discipline and gymnastic ability without putting too much strain on the legs :)
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I'm far from professional but I do this - rarely jump very big at home, only ever at shows / in training lessons. At home though I'm focusing on improving technique so its gridwork I tend to focus on so height isnt whats required there. TBH though I rarely jump at home anyway, only in competitions as I find my horse stays nice and fresh that way. But he's a very experienced horse nowadays, obviously with younger horses practice at home is required.
 
A timely thread for me. Last summer, we were out competing at 1.05m with the odd 1.10m BS. We had a bit of a disaster one day, and have been back at 80-90cm over the winter. however, I jumped Portia out at a 80cm the other day, and suddenly realised the pole bashing is laziness and cockiness at going to fast as it's easy.

I have since decided it might be time to push back up to the 1m mark, and the odd 1.05m. 90cm is now too simple and she (we?) is getting lazy.

I pushed on up to 1.30m at home last night, round a mini course of 5 inclu. oxers etc. and the jump produced by concentrating and physically trying was far superior to the 'flip across' the fence at 80cm.

With this in mind, I can see how keeping a capable horse destined/intended for 'big' stuff back too long, could be detrimental to the physical technique and mental outset.
 
I think it may well ruin the jump, and definately ruins the rider's eye. To be honest you could jump 1.05/1.10 off any stride if you keep coming with your leg on, no need really to mess about at 70/80 cm like lots of people do. I think it's a rider confidence issue.
 
foxy1 said:
I think it may well ruin the jump, and definately ruins the rider's eye. To be honest you could jump 1.05/1.10 off any stride if you keep coming with your leg on, no need really to mess about at 70/80 cm like lots of people do. I think it's a rider confidence issue.
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Agree 110% with this!! However, I am definitely in the "wimpy riders" club ;)
 
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