Jumping with a baton v jumping with a whip

[Fools Motto]

My mare is lovely, and I adore her. I think we are getting along just fab. I've had her a whole year now and we've done a bit of everything and have improved in the way of going / fitness / my riding.
Saying that, she still goes very green at 'parties' and shrinks back into herself. This means when I say 'go', there isn't much in the way of her taking me (thelwell kicking commences!) So far we've managed to get round - dressage, SJ and a ODE. I think we've done about 10 proper parties plus some XC schooling and training sessions (not a problem - it's the competion atmosphere). It's getting better but the video's do look like I'm working very hard! When I take a schooling whip or even a jumping whip a quick smack has a positive reaction, it literally seems to 'wake her up' and get her concentrating, resulting in much better rounds. However, the modern rules about having a baton (like a race whip - humane I suppose)... do totally nothing. At my ODE, although I got round I had to go to the stewards because I was hitting her hard several times and the fence judges didn't like it.. If I had a 'normal whip', one smack would have been far better. The very last thing I want is a horse who is just a bit star struck and making jumping dangerous by climbing over or tripping over a small solid fence. (We're doing 90cm at home, and 70/80 at parties)
Obviously I don't want to be hitting her, but we've got to keep going out and getting her learning. There is only so much I can do schooling when the problem only arises with the atmosphere.
I can't help but feel I'm not alone. I don't even think there is a solution, after all I can't over ride the rules. I've probably made it sound way worse than it actually is. She is improving all the time, so it's not a case of 'don't compete if she doesn't want to'. Years ago when I was bringing on my then young horse, she too, needed a good whack at the right place to do the right thing, it worked and she ended up being incredible.
Any tips or similar stories welcome.

 

[HorsesRule2009]

Do you wear spurs? Could that be another way to 'wake her up' at events?

Otherwise how about entering a few competitions HC (non competitive) so you can use your usual whip and see if a few positive outings changes things. And as she gets more confident go back to the baton?

 

[Squeak]

How strict are the UA's re the rules? I'd probably just use a normal whip and accept I might get eliminated for the wrong whip but as long as I was allowed to continue/ wasn't stopped mid round I'd be fine with that. Alternatively not all UA's may be using that rule anyway so you could try and pick those out or as HR2009 suggested you could just go HC a few times.

I'm not a massive fan of the batons, my understanding is that they were designed to work for racing where their main purpose is to make a noise not to give a tap down the shoulder so it's interesting your youngster doesn't understand the baton.

 

[maya2008]

My son’s opinion of those batons is that there’s no point, they do absolutely nothing.

I would also suggest spurs. That and doing more dressage where you are allowed a schooling whip, to get used to the competition atmosphere.

 

[Chippers1]

I agree with you. My pony can be quite backwards and despite being well schooled and off the leg, has his moments on a course where he just needs a little back up as he can drop behind and I lose all power (possibly a connie thing as friend's connie does the same!) With a normal short whip I can do a quick tap (usually across my leg just for the noise!) and I can get that extra 'wake-up' that I need to get him going forward - I also jump with a schooling whip as this helps with a little flick. The batons do absolutely nothing! I have no noise and have had a few moments recently where I really could have done with that back up but you just get nothing. May as well not carry one!

 

[millitiger]

If your lower leg is good enough, wear spurs instead.
I agree the new batons are useless, I guess that is why they were introduced though!

Also a well timed growl works wonders to get a 'pop' of impulsion when needed, if you really mean it- and you can 'train' them to respond to it by using growl, leg, schooling stick when you are training.

Also perhaps some pairs classes etc or hunting to help her think forwards- it always seems to help them get confidently taking on courses a bit more.

 

[SDMabel]

I was just going to suggest the same thing as Millitiger ! if their brain can handle it , something like bloodhounding is fantastic for getting them going forwards and enjoying it.

I don't like the batons, i have small hands and find them really chunky and fiddly , they are also so short half the time i find myself tapping my saddle

 

[Chippers1]

I took Buzz to a team chase for the first time at the weekend and he's never been so forward it will be interesting to see how he is next time I take him out xc. I also find them too chunky to carry easily, I had to buy another one which had a thinner handle.

 

[Cragrat]

I love a good boot slap - usually don't need to progress to actually hitting the horse, but those batons are hopeless. It is frustrating when they are good at home and only struggle at competition, because you can't train an association - like a damn good grow at the same time as using your normal whip. As others have said, I guess UA or HC would be the only solution.

 

[Abacus]

I had a horse that was quite sticky XC and I could feel him backing off several yards out. Obvs we had done lots of xc schooling and training and I knew he was capable, he just wasn't naturally forward when younger. A smack from a normal crop worked in training, and progressed to a point where I only needed to smack my boot to make a noise. After a few rounds like this he got the message and just went forward without anything. This was in pre-baton days but am sure a whack on my boot with a baton would have the same effect, after he was trained to the noise.

Personally I would consider doing a bit of DIY and making a Frankenstein's monster of a normal whip with a paddle exterior, just for training purposes.

 

[IrishMilo]

Has she got enough fuel in the tank to be doing what you're asking of her?

 

[Irish Sally]

What's she like in the warm up? Could you use a normal whip in the warm up and then switch before the start box? I would take her to training shows,hunter trails etc. Most of them you can use any whip.

 

[expanding_horizon]

Interesting. I bought a racing padded baton before rules changed. I use it as it makes a noise and doesn’t really sting. I got it for a nappy horse who’d fight if you stung him with a whip and it really helped.

 

[Supercalifragilistic]

It’s a tricky one. I agree that the batons are best for a tap down the shoulder - where they are quite helpful for straightness but they are useless in the hands of a small child in particular.

You can teach an association with a noise with your normal whip perhaps. A ‘whisk’ sound just before you tap him and he will associate the sound with an incoming tap (if that makes sense). This is a common trick for trot ups…

 

[Fools Motto]

The photo here shows were are going great guns, what happened at the next fence isn't quite so photo pleasing!! lol Yes, I do wear spurs. In the warm up she is as good as gold, and does what I ask. As soon as she is going away from others into the ring, she goes green. She might wobble, she might back off, she might spook. BUT this is getting better. I just know with a normal whip I'd be ahead of where I am now. I'd love to do pairs XC/team chasing, she will get very excited and I will have to learn to stick her bucks!! She has hunted before, and I think going in a group will probably remind her of fun, but going solo is a learning curve. She is totally AMAZING hacking on her own.
Thank you to all suggestions and comments. Glad it's not just me who has issues with a baton.

 

[Bernster]

I have one who’s great to hack solo but naps when alone xc. It always baffled me that he’d be totally fine in all other situations and was very confident on his own but something about a xc comp set up meant he backed off the first few fences.

 

[IrishMilo]

What a cracking horse! How is she bred?

 

[Fools Motto]

I have no idea how she is bred - irish of sorts! (Breeding not recorded on her passport). She is 15.2/15.3, 7yrs, the kindest horse to do in every way. She just has confidence issues going forward at a party.

 

[Fools Motto]

I have one who’s great to hack solo but naps when alone xc. It always baffled me that he’d be totally fine in all other situations and was very confident on his own but something about a xc comp set up meant he backed off the first few fences.

Totally this! Any tips?

 

[airliner]

Maybe not exactly what you’re needing but here’s a training tip I have learned along the way.

I like to carry a longer/dressage whip with horses who need a little bit of hind end encouragement. The length of the longer whip allows you to get the end of it right on their croup or point of hip while keeping ahold of the reins. Tapping there along with leg can help teach them to get their hind end moving when they get sticky. Obviously you can’t use the long whips to jump at shows but if you can still tap them in the same places with a short one although you have to take your hand off the reins. Just gentle taps!

 

[MagicMelon]

Sorry but Id go back to basics and also would be getting her out more to training things rather than events. Id be horrified if I got pulled up by stewards for my behaviour with the whip and you admit to hitting her hard, hardly making it an enjoyable experience for the horse which is surely your aim. I totally get the frustration, Ive got a horse who mid-XC will suddenly shut down on me and literally come back to walk and need some quiet time (its like a mental breakdown with her) and Im not sure how to deal with it yet, but I know smacking her wont help and certainly wont make her want to do it. I intend to try positive reinforcement, lots of praise etc. when she moves forward.

 

[TheChestnutThing]

My son’s opinion of those batons is that there’s no point, they do absolutely nothing.

I would also suggest spurs. That and doing more dressage where you are allowed a schooling whip, to get used to the competition atmosphere.

Your son is correct.

I’ve stopped riding with one since they banned whips (I don’t even use one at home anymore), I have rollerball spurs that I use for encouragement if needed. And I rarely use them at home unless jumping big/horse is feeling a little less off the leg, so they are more effective at shows.

 

[SaharaS]

Just a controversial thinking outside the box here.... is she really happy competing?

I do agree with other that the batons are far from ideal...Jessie always behaved impeccably if I wore spurs and carried a whip, which I would only ever need if I didn't have them.....but never used or needed if I did have them...

Before I get hit squads and snipers showing up...if I put it in the context of show dogs and racehorses I will be less likely to get assassination attempts. So I will phrase carefully!...Blue was a fabulously bred flat horse, but he was simply of the mindset that even on the gallops he would be infront or go home...but the second he got to a race he was all excited...wheres the bar? I do love coming to watch and hack along cheering the others on..hang on ..why are we in the middle of the action? can't we just trot?
we all agree horses are sentient & soulful beings and we all know how we are, like them, all very individual....many exceptionally well bred show dogs just don't want to compete, aren't happy or comfortable in the arena, tho will happy stack and enjoy ring craft or even local shows. Many race horses the same, they just don't enjoy the atmosphere.
I completely get that you could train it out of her, take her right back to basics.. but ..is it something she enjoys or will enjoy? Just like some people, they get stage fright, freeze in public or social situations ..or keyboard warriors that wouldn't say boo to a dead ant in RL....(real life not Ralph Lauren!)and while I'm not saying give up and I'm not advocating getting off and having counselling sessions with her or doing what many parents of a Steiner School inclination do... (or letting her compete dressed as a dragon in a fancy flames dress if she wishes to identify that way) but...you've only had her a year, you don't know what happened before that(none of us do, only what we are told) Maybe she's just not ready, maybe you need to try different things, peel it back to basics again.. or maybe she simply just doesn't like I?.. She could also be worried about what she's picking up from you..whether anticipation, frustration or how you feel, pre show excitement or nerves etc(we all get them) or whatever..esp now after the stewards. If she's fine at home I wonder if she's just not that into it? Bella for example sees absolutely no point in flouncing round a show ring,why should she if we all know she's beautiful, they can all admire her as she lies down/plants or just decides she'd prefer to go the other way! Maybe there is another sphere that she would prefer? Don't let me put you off and appreciate this isn't helpful when she's a cracking mare that obviously has it in her....but didn't want to scroll by without a mention...I'm now going to duck before I get stoned for being fluffy...I'm really not.

 

[LEC]

I think you need to be looking at installing go much stricter. It needs to be 100% of the time and super disciplined. I ride a lot of horses for other people and 99% of them are terrible off the leg. I expect to touch them and we get a reaction so when you go to events and it shrivels a bit with being a bit inward it’s still there. I ride 99% of the time with a schooling whip and tbh barely use my baton except competitions. Maybe once in 5 years for a horse who was completely backwards jumping a fence and needed a reminder on landing.

I think you need to be super critical of yourself and the horse in every single occasion. Have I just asked for a transition out hacking and it’s been ignored? Have I had to ask twice? If you have had to ask twice then that’s where I like my schooling whip for a flick wit the leg almost immediately and I will make a big reaction. I also quite frequently take my legs away and use nothing and see if they dribble and drop me. If they do, I get after them with a kick as they should stay in the pace I have put them in until I say it changes. I also expect them to instantly react in a sjing round if I give them a kick - I expect a big difference in forwards. Not just a slight change. This again is all practiced at home and away in your warm up and schooling.

As with most things, it’s not a horse issue, it’s a training issue.

 

[YourValentine]

I think you need to be looking at installing go much stricter. It needs to be 100% of the time and super disciplined. I ride a lot of horses for other people and 99% of them are terrible off the leg. I expect to touch them and we get a reaction so when you go to events and it shrivels a bit with being a bit inward it’s still there. I ride 99% of the time with a schooling whip and tbh barely use my baton except competitions. Maybe once in 5 years for a horse who was completely backwards jumping a fence and needed a reminder on landing.

I think you need to be super critical of yourself and the horse in every single occasion. Have I just asked for a transition out hacking and it’s been ignored? Have I had to ask twice? If you have had to ask twice then that’s where I like my schooling whip for a flick wit the leg almost immediately and I will make a big reaction. I also quite frequently take my legs away and use nothing and see if they dribble and drop me. If they do, I get after them with a kick as they should stay in the pace I have put them in until I say it changes. I also expect them to instantly react in a sjing round if I give them a kick - I expect a big difference in forwards. Not just a slight change. This again is all practiced at home and away in your warm up and schooling.

As with most things, it’s not a horse issue, it’s a training issue.

This. It may or may not be the issue but you definitely want to make sure they are 100% in front of the leg. And until you've ridden a horse that is, most people don't realise how behind the leg their horses are.

You need to be black and white in asking to go forward. If you ask for trot and don't get it instantly you need to ask with leg, stick and voice firmly, and if you end up in a canter/in-hand gallop that's fine, let them go for 10 strides or so, then quietly ask them to come back to walk and try again. Don't worry about contact, in fact you want almost no contact so there is no question about going forward.

I tend to as for the transition 1st time very lightly, 2nd time more firmly and if no response 3rd time go 'all in'. You don't have to beat them up just make it clear that the expected reaction is forward and of they don't go when you first ask you will insist.

Once you have forward established you can start to refine it - transitions with in pace, adding contact etc

 

[RachelFerd]

I only use a baton for competitions but have always found on the occasions that I have had to use it (which are pretty few) that it has had exactly the same reaction as I would expect to get from using a normal jumping whip. The idea that they're made of marshmallows and don't illicit a significant enough feel is total codswallop as far as I'm concerned.

LEC's advise above is totally spot on. These things are rarely problems to be schooled out at a competition - they're problems which exist at home and the competition environment exacerbates them rather than causes them.