Juno "Recall Booster" training

JennBags

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As promised on another thread, a few notes on today's recall session. It's a short course, just 3 weeks, and aims to just get that recall a little more solid.

There were 2 other dogs on the session, a 17mo Finnish Laphund bitch and a 14mo labradoodle dog; Juno is just about to come into her second season, so I mentioned it so that we all kept our distance from each other. She does also have some resource-guarding issues, which the trainer mentioned to the other owners so when the FL sauntered over to inspect Juno's toy there was some growling.

Juno's recall is great up to about 10 yards away, at which point she stops. She will wait for me to come over to her, but she won't come to me, I haven't been making a big effort to change this yet as it's all too easy to train the wrong behaviour (which is probably what I've been doing anyway).

We were in a local park so everything was on long-lines. The first exercise was for the owner to go away and call the dog with a tuggy toy, while the trainer holds the dog to increase the drive, then lets go; the dog runs to the toy, has a quick game (after touching the collar), then back. We were doing it one at a time, so all the time that one dog was being used, the other owners were trying to hold their dogs attention as much as possible. Next we practised a "middle", Juno is brilliant at this at home (often offers the behaviour) but I found it very hard to get her to concentrate on the task at hand, although we did get a couple of good middles towards the end. We then practised a recall past an object, the other dogs had tennis balls but as Juno is a typical ball-obsessed collie, she just had a tuggy toy which she went straight past each time. Trainer said our aim is to get her coming to me past a ball/pile of balls but I'm not sure we'll achieve that in 3 weeks! Lastly we did another recall this time past the tuggy-toy that we'd been using to play but to a new squeaky toy which Juno absolutely loved. The labradoodle was more interested in the tuggy toy (and kept trying to take my one out of my hand!).

Homework is calling the dog to a toy while out on a walk, practising the middle, and introducing the "emergency stop" word so I have to think of one. It needs to be something that doesn't come up in everyday situations/conversations so the dog doesn't get used to hearing it.

Hope you've found my report a little bit interesting, it's a good record for me anyway!

This is a picture of her with the trainer's lilac collie at our last training course:
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Clodagh

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Amazing coloured dogs! Sounds really interesting and fun.
I go and see a gundog trainer from time to time and just someone else's eyes telling you what you are doing wrong makes it totally worthwhile. It is always my fault!
We don't train with any intensity at PMT times, I find it makies them soppy/stroppy/emotional (dependant on dog) but I suppose when you are on a course you can't really pick your times.
 

MissTyc

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Sounds great! V similar to how I trained my terrier's recall - we built up on distraction and he will recall away from rabbit hunting now. Reluctantly! He is a good terrier for recall! (but an excellent terrier for hunting rabbits lol)
 

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Following with interest! Despite being told by some well meaning bod on here that ‘collies are easy, just let them go and they should stay with you’, my little dog is still an unreliable and independent little soul. We have been trying super hard to build toy drive but he’s a real challenge. I’ve been reading the STOP book (I think was recommended to me by CC?) and it’s given me more understanding of why he chases, and how tough it can be to change the neural pathway once it’s programmed, and some new ideas to try.
 

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Following with interest! Despite being told by some well meaning bod on here that ‘collies are easy, just let them go and they should stay with you’, my little dog is still an unreliable and independent little soul. We have been trying super hard to build toy drive but he’s a real challenge. I’ve been reading the STOP book (I think was recommended to me by CC?) and it’s given me more understanding of why he chases, and how tough it can be to change the neural pathway once it’s programmed, and some new ideas to try.
Ooh what is the Stop book ? I may need that
 

MotherOfChickens

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Following with interest! Despite being told by some well meaning bod on here that ‘collies are easy, just let them go and they should stay with you’, .

the farmers that live next door to me, have always had working collies so no inexperienced, currently have one called Frank who has no recall whatsoever when he's not working (or sometimes when he is judging by some of the language I hear!). some people on here just talk bollocks.
 

JennBags

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Following with interest! Despite being told by some well meaning bod on here that ‘collies are easy, just let them go and they should stay with you’, my little dog is still an unreliable and independent little soul. We have been trying super hard to build toy drive but he’s a real challenge. I’ve been reading the STOP book (I think was recommended to me by CC?) and it’s given me more understanding of why he chases, and how tough it can be to change the neural pathway once it’s programmed, and some new ideas to try.
Puts you off posting doesn't it? I've had a couple of people be very patronising and intimate that I'm a terrible owner but I just ignore them as at the end if the day, I'm trying my hardest to be a good owner and train to the best of my ability. If they've got something constructive to add, great, otherwise they can bugger off!
 

Cahill

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great post. what is `middle` ?
i use `down` for my emergency recall and always go to the dog and take it back the way it came,
i mix it up with call throughs to avoid antisipations.
 

splashgirl45

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have a 3/4 border collie and she has always been really easy, she is a follower so doesnt have her own agenda so i have been very lucky. my new little terrier definitely has his own agenda and has been a challenge, luckily he is very food orientated so his recall is pretty good most of the time.....i think if you live in the middle of nowhere you can let them run loose but if you are anywhere near roads it would be stupid....even though my collie cross is so obedient i always have her on the lead if we are anywhere near roads ...all dogs are different even if the same breed...
 

BBP

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Puts you off posting doesn't it? I've had a couple of people be very patronising and intimate that I'm a terrible owner but I just ignore them as at the end if the day, I'm trying my hardest to be a good owner and train to the best of my ability. If they've got something constructive to add, great, otherwise they can bugger off!

It has put me off a bit, and I do think of that comment every time I feel out of my depth. But I’ve had great advice too and my little dog also has a lot of fabulous qualities and behaviours that I’m super proud of.

The book is called ‘Stop! how to control predatory chasing’ by David Ryan (I think). It’s really nicely written, very readable and explains really well about the importance of the chase to a dogs wellbeing, and I’m currently trying to understand how to channel that drive and need to chase into a toy but I’m really struggling, he’s a collie that isn’t interested in toys! The book talks about finding one that is similar to their trigger but not exactly like it, so you get their attention without reinforcing the urge to chase the actual trigger and redirect that chase instinct to something safe. So I need a toy that is similar to a bird flying 50m over head, or a car!

Juno is looking so beautiful!
 

CorvusCorax

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We do the trainer-holds-the-dog and owner recalls, a lot with pups, it's a good way to start recall exercise.

Late I know, but someone I know doesn't let pups off the long flexi for a year, so they never learn *not* to recall. The first time they ignore and self reward is the thing you have to fight against forever after unfortunately.

I've had my younger dog (well, he's seven soon lol) for just over a year and I still take either his morning or evening kibble allowance out and feed it to him on walks for things like coming back when called, maintaining eye contact, ignoring distractions etc. I always train hungry.

I wouldn't worry too much about the growling, I'd not expect any dog I know to happily let a strange dog take their toy.

Middle, strangely, is the thing my dog offers up constantly, it's his safe place lol!

I use 'platz' for instant downs at distance, it's part of my send-out training as well as being a literal life-saver and it sounds cool when you roar it :p I do generally drop both dogs sporadically when out walking as it keeps them sharp/responsive.
You could just use a down command if she already knows it, or 'place' command.

Ignore the Peter Perfects, I have two dogs who have nothing to prove on the competition field that still act like utter dicks sometimes and I'm the first to admit it :p
 

JennBags

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Thanks @BBP, she is a stunning looking dog, we can't go anywhere without being stopped for people to admire her and ask about her. Very occasionally we get people who know she's a red merle, but most of the time people don't even know she's a border collie! I think it's time we had some updated pics of your boy isn't it.
CC I might steal that word from you for my emergency stop if you don't mind.
 

CorvusCorax

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No worries.

Bbp did you ever get a squashy soccer ball on a rope? I keep seeing them and thinking of you lol. I think there's someone selling them in Wales now.
 

BBP

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Thanks @BBP, she is a stunning looking dog, we can't go anywhere without being stopped for people to admire her and ask about her. Very occasionally we get people who know she's a red merle, but most of the time people don't even know she's a border collie! I think it's time we had some updated pics of your boy isn't it.
CC I might steal that word from you for my emergency stop if you don't mind.
I had one little girl ask me if he was a snow leopard and another ask me if he was an arctic fox! A few guess Aussie shepherd, which isn’t bad as he does have it in his lineage (it’s why the sheepdog trainer told me he was a crap useless dog).
Just for you, being a juvenile delinquent, on the beers early.
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Clodagh

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Late I know, but someone I know doesn't let pups off the long flexi for a year, so they never learn *not* to recall. The first time they ignore and self reward is the thing you have to fight against forever after unfortunately.

That is very interesting, do you advocate it? I have always assumed they need to learn to recall, by being recalled while on a scent or something distracting, but what you are talking about is completely the opposite? I know I only have labradors, which are colour by numbers dogs.
 

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Sounds really interesting, I'm looking for some extra training for a certain Saluki x moron as although he's getting better when there is no one around and when we're playing with his disc, I would not trust him in the slightest with other dogs who aren't our flyball family and as he proves every week at training....tennis balls are too exciting in open spaces :rolleyes:.
 

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That is very interesting, do you advocate it? I have always assumed they need to learn to recall, by being recalled while on a scent or something distracting, but what you are talking about is completely the opposite? I know I only have labradors, which are colour by numbers dogs.

Dogs need to learn how to learn.
There's a train of thought that if you train the right behaviour from the first day, then he never learns not to do the right thing.
I haven't had a puppy for a long time nor will I be getting one for a long time, but I wouldn't rule it out. It's much easier to train a dog when there are mechanical/physical barriers in place to shape a behaviour, which you can remove later.
May I add the caveat that this person always has an excellent relationship with their dogs and spends a lot of time on it. Their dogs generally prize wanting to be with them above all else. The flexi is insurance. *If* the dog ignores them, they have a physical/mechanical way of preventing them from leaving and they can then reward them for coming back.
 

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Week 2 report (last week was rescheduled due to the heat!). It wasn't a very successful week.

Only 2 of us this time, Juno and the Finnish Laphund bitch. I was wary as the FL and Juno had had a few growls at each other the previous session, and the FL's owner doesn't keep close control so she was wandering over to us - the trainer mentioned right off that he needed to keep his dog away as Juno can have resource guarding issues.

We did some straight line recalls past an empty bowl which then got food put in it. Juno came straight to me when empty but stopped at the food - as soon as I squeaked the ball in my pocket she was straight over to me.
We then did some "meet and greet" then calling away. Juno and the FL weren't interested in each other so we changed the dog up for the trainer who made loads of fuss of the dog while we walked away, then called the dog (again Juno was straight over to me, she doesn't really like to be too far away).

Lastly the trainer wanted to do some recall races. The FL stayed on her long leash but Juno didn't (as she has a very reliable stay) and the FL's owner and I went away then called the dogs to us. Juno came straight to me but the FL went sideways and barrelled into her, and they had a fight, Juno tried to get away but the long leash was wrapped around her neck so kept pulling her back in; I got my arm in and pulled the FL off her, luckily I was only bruised but I had to do something. We then got them vaguely back in the same space but distracted them from each other before calling it a day as the rain started lashing down.

I will go next week as it's useful doing training with distractions but I will be much more wary of the FL (as will the trainer).
 

JennBags

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Sorry shouldn't do it without a picture for you! Here's a picture of her out on our walk the other week
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CorvusCorax

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Sorry the session didn't go to plan.
Where were the trainer and FL owner while you were separating the dogs?!

To be honest this is something both of them should have been a bit sharper on generally, especially if one of them had the line...dogs generally tell you when they are about to dick off, through their body language. The good thing is that you gave them something to do rather than put them away immediately.

I know this will be hard, but you mentioned you were already uneasy about the FL. This emotion will transfer to your dog very quickly, so watch the FL but try and keep your mood neutral.
 

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Sorry that didn’t go so well JB although it sounds as if Juno was doing pretty well. As CC asks where the heck were owner and trainer when it all went south? Glad you are not badly hurt.
 

JennBags

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The owner was 20 yards or so off to my right and the trainer was 20 yards or so straight ahead - Juno had almost reached me, so I was first to the scene and then was the only one brave enough to put my hand in to grab a dog! It was all really quick.
Thanks CC - maybe my emotion did rub off on Juno, I do try to keep neutral but animals are very sensitive.
 
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