Just a rant - "is she insured"

[Tiddlypom]

I wasn’t asked re insurance, I don’t insure, but I’m still pretty sore that when I rang to arrange PTS for my mare after her second seizure last week that the first vet I spoke to wittered on about maybe trialling her on a course of steroids.

The cctv covering her epic fence demolition three weeks before during her first seizure is already on her notes, showing her blindly repeatedly crashing into an arena fence that she cannot see.

No, I gave her a second chance, I’ve spent the last 6 years managing her various conditions, and I do not want to argue the toss with a vet who wants to try ‘one more thing’ on a mare who is now dangerous to herself and all around her.

Luckily the vet who did come out was much more sensible, and agreed that I was doing the right thing, and reckoned that she likely had a frontal lobe tumour.

It’s really upset me that my PTS call was apparently questioned.

 

[Chianti]

I wasn’t asked re insurance, I don’t insure, but I’m still pretty sore that when I rang to arrange PTS for my mare after her second seizure last week that the first vet I spoke to wittered on about maybe trialling her on a course of steroids.

The cctv covering her epic fence demolition three weeks before during her first seizure is already on her notes, showing her blindly repeatedly crashing into an arena fence that she cannot see.

No, I gave her a second chance, I’ve spent the last 6 years managing her various conditions, and I do not want to argue the toss with a vet who wants to try ‘one more thing’ on a mare who is now dangerous to herself and all around her.

Luckily the vet who did come out was much more sensible, and agreed that I was doing the right thing, and reckoned that she likely had a frontal lobe tumour.

It’s really upset me that my PTS call was apparently questioned.

That's awful. It's hard enough having to make the decision, and then the call, without some smart alec thinking they'll stick their oar in.

 

[Carrottom]

The question about insurance can affect factors other than budget. I had a vet out for what turned out to be a fatal injury. No question about insurance while he did the examination and gave the prognosis, whereupon we agreed to pts. He then asked if she was insured. I replied that she was insured for death only. Well she is going to die, was his reply. He wanted to contact the insurers to let them know she was being pts on humane grounds. He felt they might question a claim, it was out of hours so he left a message on their answer machine.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

OP's post describes it as a 'known nasty question? Why is it a 'nasty' question? I am always asked straight away too. I have never found it inappropriate or intrusive. It changes a lot about a lot of things and so vets want /need to know.

 

[Polos Mum]

Also, asking about insurance is perfectly valid. Vet doesn't know your finances!

Having asked about insurance she still doesn't know anything more about my finances. Do they ever ask "what is the balance in your savings account" or "how much is your unspent credit card limit"

Even if the answer to insurance is yes, what's the vet treatment limit, are there any relevant exclusions, can you afford the excess etc. etc. - there's loads more questions they would have to ask before they got to "how much is available to spend"
A £1k vet limit for external injuries only would have been of no use at all in this particular circumstance. Even the standard £5k vet limit can be wiped out PDQ these days so the question about wider sources of funds might still be relevant even if someone is insured.

This is not a vet dig.

This is a complaint at whoever does their training in these things. Presumably the practice they work for - for most of the UK now that is only three companies who've bought up most of the surgeries.

Give your vets a better script to work with to understand what are the budget constraints and is budget the main constraining factor for treatment (vs. quality of life, ability to travel, success rates etc.)

 

[Polos Mum]

OP's post describes it as a 'known nasty question? Why is it a 'nasty' question? I am always asked straight away too. I have never found it inappropriate or intrusive. It changes a lot about a lot of things and so vets want /need to know.

Badly phrased it suggests the treatment options are different for insured vs. uninsured. 100% the treatment options are always fully the same.

Whether people are able to take up more expensive options may well be influenced by insurance (or savings or empty credit cards etc.) - but that is a different and wider question.

Some unscrupulous vets also have earned a reputation for seeking to spend insurance limits when it's not in the best interests of the animal.

I was personally put under a lot of pressure to give Chemo to a 12 y/o collie dog who was riddled with tumors as "she's insured it won't cost you anything" and then questioned again as to "why not there's nothing to lose".

In the minority but the reputation of vets spending vs. insurance is well understood so the script the practice gives them should steer them away from looking like they are just in it for the largest ££'s - when I am sure that isn't want they meant.

 

[Palindrome]

I don't see it as nasty. It's opening up the conversation about money (plus other conditions that might have to be fulfilled), presumably the customer can give further info to what they want or don't want.

I wouldn't be able to reply to a "what's your budget" question, I don't have a set amount I have decided to spend beforehand. To me the amount I would spend would also depend on the possible outcomes.

 

[DressageCob]

I would be far more annoyed if a vet asked me "what's the budget for treatment". If you're struggling the last thing you need is a reminder that a different owner may have more treatment options open to them because they have more money. Plus it can make the vet look like they are just after your money, rather than the best interests of the horse.

I find the "are they insured" question pretty innocuous to be honest.

 

[DressageCob]

I'm still thinking about this.
It's also a valid question, as some insurance companies won't fund certain treatments etc. and they can have a PTS threshold so sometimes an owner will want to PTS but the insurer won't pay loss of horse because their view is that the threshold wasn't crossed.

I really don't see how the question is nasty. Maybe in this context with an older horse they should know insurance is unlikely to cover, but I don't see the harm in the question.

 

[Sealine]

Assuming the appointment isn't for vaccinations the insurance status and my approach to treatment is information I always volunteer early on in a consultation. This is regardless of whether it's a dog, cat or horse. When dealing with vets I have a very pragmatic approach. Vets probably think I'm hard as nails but I deal with any emotion later. Personally, I wouldn't be offended or upset if asked this question by a vet.

 

[AmyMay]

I'm still thinking about this.
It's also a valid question, as some insurance companies won't fund certain treatments etc. and they can have a PTS threshold so sometimes an owner will want to PTS but the insurer won't pay loss of horse because their view is that the threshold wasn't crossed.

I really don't see how the question is nasty. Maybe in this context with an older horse they should know insurance is unlikely to cover, but I don't see the harm in the question.

It’s simply people choosing to take offence, where none is intended.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Ok today was a perfect example. Lottie had a work up at vet hospital. My friend wanted an MOT for her horse too with same vet so we went together. Both were asked the question on arrival. Lottie is not insured. Other horse is. Vet took detailed history from each horse in turn, then trotted up, lunged.

She said Lottie was sore over her back, tight in the neck and although in the past she’d been pragmatic and treated hocks on clinical signs, this time really we needed some images or she was a bit in the dark as to what was causing what. On the other hand my friends older, arthritic horse was likely to show bony changes on imaging but these would not really change management. But my friend had already said she’d seen a change in him about 3-4 months ago which she addressed with supplements, reduced work, more turn out. But she still felt something wasn’t quite right.

Vet said clock was ticking as insurance would date onset 3-4 months ago, so although her instinct was conservative management, there was a possibility that they could try that for a few months and run out of time for other diagnostics.

It was nothing to do with ‘can you afford this’. But ‘as you are covered for this should we go ahead with it, as a belt n braces option?’ (Off topic but this is why I don’t like insurance - it promotes an ‘I might as well since I’m insured’ mindset.. which is exactly what my friend said in deciding to scan….. Not pushing inappropriate invasive treatments but generally going for diagnostics that are ‘might be useful’ rather than ‘definitely need this’

Asking me my ‘budget for treatment’ feels FAR more intrusive.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

What about OOH visits? presumably you ring the vet directly, no receptionist involved

I wouldn't be remotely bothered about being asked if mine are insured

No, a nurse/receptionist answers the phone whenever you ring.

The last time we had a callout for colic, the vet, whom I have known for a long time, told me that because of the mare's age and size (Draft aged 20 ) she would not recommend surgery. She never mentioned insurance and I don't remember ever telling her in the past that we don't insure. I did say on that occasion that even if she had recommended surgery, I would have said no. Mare recovered.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I don't see it as nasty. It's opening up the conversation about money (plus other conditions that might have to be fulfilled), presumably the customer can give further info to what they want or don't want.

I wouldn't be able to reply to a "what's your budget" question, I don't have a set amount I have decided to spend beforehand. To me the amount I would spend would also depend on the possible outcomes.

I wouldn't feel the need to discuss the budget tbh. I would want to know the least intrusive/
most effective options. That is why we don't insure, so that all treatment decisions are our own, in conjunction with the vet. The practice is a big independent one.

 

[GoldenWillow]

The vets I have used for the last 12 years have never asked the insurance question, they, and I've seen various vets from the practice over the years, just go through the treatment options. I have discussed insurance with them when I know the options but I think it's usually me that's brought the subject up.

 

[southerncomfort]

I wasn’t asked re insurance, I don’t insure, but I’m still pretty sore that when I rang to arrange PTS for my mare after her second seizure last week that the first vet I spoke to wittered on about maybe trialling her on a course of steroids.

The cctv covering her epic fence demolition three weeks before during her first seizure is already on her notes, showing her blindly repeatedly crashing into an arena fence that she cannot see.

No, I gave her a second chance, I’ve spent the last 6 years managing her various conditions, and I do not want to argue the toss with a vet who wants to try ‘one more thing’ on a mare who is now dangerous to herself and all around her.

Luckily the vet who did come out was much more sensible, and agreed that I was doing the right thing, and reckoned that she likely had a frontal lobe tumour.

It’s really upset me that my PTS call was apparently questioned.

That's really cr** TP.

When mine was diagnosed, the vet said 'we could try steroids if you really want to, but it honestly won't make any difference'.

 

[smiggy]

Small animal vet but I often ask the question as it’s a good short cut to knowing if we need to think about finance issues. Asking what is your budget , would seem really rude .
I have 15 minutes to see the pet, diagnose and plan treatments, if I can put a short cut in that quickly helps with that plan then that’s a bonus . As far as I know I have never offended anyone, maybe it’s the tone , I don’t know .
For example , dog comes in with a skin condition , I ask are you insured? If yes we go straight to the better , but expensive treatments of say monthly injections, not super pricey or invasive but the best treatment in that situation. If no then we still might choose that option but it’s going to be prefaced with me presenting them with prices and if that’s not affordable then finding cheaper options that they can afford, but which might not be the best option for the dog but they would prefer due to financial constraints.
I’m not trying to rip people off, I’m trying to help !

 

[Cadbury]

It wouldn’t affect my budget, or it seems the OP’s. My animals won’t ever be treated depending on how much in costs. It’s either in their best interests, or it’s not. It’s that clear cut to me.

I can’t imagine my vet being supportive if I said I wanted to put my 30 year old through colic surgery. Hypothetically speaking, she’d explain what a big op it was and how hard recovery would be and suggest it probably wouldn’t be in the ponies best interests, but obviously the final decision would be mine. I’m pretty certain the cost wouldn’t even come into the conversation and certainly not when the pony only has mild colic.

Actually thinking about it, the same thing did happen with my previous old pony. It wasn’t my usual vet, but referral wasn’t mentioned at all. She just gave painkillers, fluids and advice and said to see how she went. As it was, I called them back to PTS a couple of days later when it was clear she still wasn’t right.

The vets don’t know who has an unlimited budget and who doesn’t though.

 

[Cadbury]

To be honest I think you’ve blown this out of all proportion. I’d move on rather than waste time winding yourself up over it - easier said than done sometimes I know!

 

[scats]

Honestly, that question doesn’t bother me at all. It’s just a practical thing really.
My tortoise is booked for an endoscopy on Friday. They know she isn’t insured as its on her records from surgery last year, but the vet did tell me that the endoscopy and fitting another feeding tube under GA would be 1.5-2k and was I ok with that.
Money often is a factor in what people choose to do regards treatment for their animal (because no idiot would pay £6k on a tortoise in less than 12 months, surely? )

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

It doesn't bother me to be asked if my horses are insured.

It bothers me when the vet asks if this beast is insured!

Never did like that particular vet stupid woman.

 

[Bellaboo18]

They have to ask. It can absolutely affect treatment given, because it affects the budget.
In answer to your later question - sadly, lots of people would put a 30yo pony through colic surgery, and would complain to the RCVS if the vet didn’t present it as an option.

Hope your pony is recovered now. The vet really wasn’t at fault here, they can’t do right for doing wrong.

But that's why the question is annoying, it doesn't affect everyone's budget. It's assumed you have a smaller budget if you don't insure but that's not always the case. I'd insure if it did affect my budget.
I'd far rather they said, these are your options and they cost x amount.

 

[ycbm]

Small animal vet but I often ask the question as it’s a good short cut to knowing if we need to think about finance issues. Asking what is your budget , would seem really rude .

First, you do a tough job and you are very much appreciated. My small animal vets are grand.

But the owner needs to know what the alternatives are before they can consider the financial issues. When you ask the question and they say "no" you are no further forward in knowing their financial issues. When you ask the question and they say "yes" you are no further forward in knowing whether they will accept the more expensive treatments for their pet (given that more expensive very often means more intrusive, more experimental, or something along those lines.)

By asking it early you risk giving the impression that you are one of the very small minority, but undoubtedly they do exist, of vets who will advocate treatment which isn't actually in the animals interests in order to increase the bill. For your own sake I'd advise presenting the options first and discussing the money second.
.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

When I have a vet attend any of my animals the first thing I want is that they have a quick look and ascertain what is wrong or needs further checks and then talk about options. A lot of conditions don't cost enough to be claimed for anyway once you have taken into account the excess. I think the only time insurance has ever come up it has been me that raised the matter. I know when my dog had a badly infected foot that I told the vet she is insured, do whatever it takes. Only one of my animals that was insured.

 

[meleeka]

First, you do a tough job and you are very much appreciated. My small animal vets are grand.

But the owner needs to know what the alternatives are before they can consider the financial issues. When you ask the question and they say "no" you are no further forward in knowing their financial issues. When you ask the question and they say "yes" you are no further forward in knowing whether they will accept the more expensive treatments for their pet (given that more expensive very often means more intrusive, more experimental, or something along those lines.)

By asking it early you risk giving the impression that you are one of the very small minority, but undoubtedly they do exist, of vets who will advocate treatment which isn't actually in the animals interests in order to increase the bill. For your own sake I'd advise presenting the options first and discussing the money second.
.

Absolutely this. Being insured, or not, doesn’t make it obvious what the owner would be willing to happen.

The question of insurance means either a) You aren’t going to offer me tests or treatment which might help, because you’ve decided what my budget is or b) If I have insurance you’ll suggest extra things just to use up the money, even though it’s not necessarily needed. Of course it’s rarely that black and white, but that’s how it feels as an owner. Even if the animal is insured, somebody has to pay, it’s not free money! These days it means increased premiums for everybody.

 

[southerncomfort]

What I like is a vet that says 'here are the treatment options and here is how much each of them costs'.

Then I feel I'm in control and can budget accordingly.

There is one equine vet (recently qualified) who doesn't include me in the conversation at all. She just tells me what she's going to do and what the longer term plan is.

Once upon a time I'd have been too embarrassed to ask how much it would cost and what the alternatives are.

I'm more assertive now, but I still don't like feeling like I have to ask about costs every time.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I was talking to my sister about this, this morning and she told me she had been listening to a programme about vets recently. The person they were interviewing declared that categorically no vet would ever ask that before treating the animal. Somewhat deluded I think.

 

[suestowford]

What I like is a vet that says 'here are the treatment options and here is how much each of them costs'.

Then I feel I'm in control and can budget accordingly.

I like this too. At the surgery I use they have started to be much more informative about the costs, usually during the consultation. It always comes from the vet, and I would assume this has changed because the receptionists were taking a lot of flak over fees. They are not there to be in the firing line so I expect the receptionists like this too.
I would not be offended if I was asked about insurance.

 

[Caol Ila]

Reading the responses on this thread, it seems that no matter how a vet phrases any question about an owner's finances vis a vis treatment, someone will take offense at it.

I think it's asking a lot of vets to have client mind reading skills and knowing how best to talk about that with each and every person (catering to everyone's individual neuroses), when they are mostly focused on the animal.

 

[honetpot]

I am pretty blunt, I have had the same practice for over fifteen years, and its a horsepital so they have all the toys and diagnostics, usually by the time they arrive I have mentally gone through the treatment options, I just say they will not be admitted, what can you do on the yard or PTS.
It gets harder because they are so used to owners being unrealistic about outcomes, and being bad mouthed on FB, I had to persuade them to do a standing castration, they wanted to do it under GA, for no real clinical reason. In the past they have done two at the same time of the same age.
I had a twenty eight year old pony out on loan, treated for colic on the yard and then the attending vet, not mine wanted them admitted. I said no I was responsible for the bills and I would not put him through that, to the loaner. The vet phoned and tried to presuade me, I just said I am the owner and I pay the bills, gave them my adress and phone number, so I got the bill for the treatment and PTS.
I suppose because I am direct I wouldn't care if they asked about budget, because its even a factor with insurance, but if I was I was asking I would perhaps be a bit more tactful.