just backed - no brakes!

digitalangel

digitalangel

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My 'potential young sport horse' has been with me 2 weeks now. He has a fantastic attitude and is fabulous on the ground, comes to call, leads and loads fine/etc excellent to handle feet/grooming/etc. Hes rising 4 and when i got him he had just been backed, and when i tried him was good for his age - wtc both reins, brakes and steering a bit wobbly but he got the general idea.

Since hes been home ive tried to take it quite slow, and with the help of my trainer i have been riding him, but while the steering is getting better, the brakes certainly are not! I am now havng this issue when under lunge/long lines and under saddle. Im trying everything i can think of, using voice to establish commands, lots of repitition, half halts, taking back to lunge, staying in walk, etc etc and all he seems to do is such right back and run through the aids. It i put pressure on him or be firmer than i normally would, he panics, and loses both brakes and steering and we both end up on the menage fence.

I *know* this is normal for a young horse, hes so lovely in every other way, and i know we have all the time in the world, no rush etc etc but i just feel like he is going backwards and i am ruining him :(
 
has he had his teeth checked?

are you riding him in the same bridle/bit/noseband he was in at his last home?

I would ring his old owners and explain and see if they have any tips/ideas as they should know him well enough to offer advice.
 
yes his teeth were done the day after he came home.

when i tried him he was in a rubber nathe bit, no flash, and i put him in a full cheek french link to help with steering which is helping a bit.

Old owners only had him 2 weeks after he was imported, so not much help. they know what i know - he is green and only just just backed.
 
if he is panicing as a result of the applicaiton of the bit, maybe try bitless for a little while, then establish halt better with voice seat (with the bitless as a back-up to voice/ seat aids) and then progress back to using the bit?? Would just be a way of breaking the cycle if he's becoming scared of the bit?

likewise for lunging, can you go back to lunging him in just a lunge cavesson and not a bit and see if that helps?... as in go right back to basics/ walk alongside him (or have a helper do so) and then slowly slowly from there work towards going back to "normal" lunge work?

with youngsters, I always think if in doubt go back to basics.......
 
Poor baby horsey. Imported 4 weeks ago, already on it's second home. Give him a chance to settle as he doesn't know if he is coming or going. Use the time to be with him, get to know him better and repeat all the exercises from the ground and yes do take it slowly otherwise you will rattle him more. If you are still having problems in a months time I would be very suprised. Good luck with your potential star.
 
tbh this isn't 'normal for a young horse', i've had a few that would get stuck and refuse to move in the first few weeks, but none that lost brakes!
i agree with the above, he's prob bewildered tbh.
it sounds as if he's suddenly panicking and running, that his flight reflex is being triggered.
presumably he's in a totally different saddle to the one he was in before, i would look VERY closely at that first. at the very very least i'd get it checked v carefully and put a prolite under it if it's wide enough for that...
are you the same sort of height and weight as his former rider(s)? e.g. if your legs are much longer they might be touching him in a place he's not used to, triggering the running away thing. if you're taller/heavier etc, make your aids much more tactful and careful. sorry if that's insultingly obvious...!
once saddle's checked, i'd get him used to halting on voice command and on a pull of the neckstrap.
i'd walk around with a helper holding him on a leadrein or holding the reins by the bit, for at least a few weeks, chuck pride out of the window and go back to absolute baby-basics. lots of halting and walking on, turning, use of voice, tons of praise and treats when he listens and does it right. short sessions of only 10 mins or so.
when that is all established, you could be lunged on him if you're happy with that, must admit i'm no fan of being lunged on baby horses BUT it works for a lot of people. just make sure you work out beforehand who is giving the horse the instructions as it can get v confusing for everyone!
or, what i do is gradual loops away from my helper (who is on foot), i do a circle and then back to helper and halt for a treat, then circle the other way, that sort of thing, gradually building up how much i do away from helper. i get them used to going back to helper for a treat, this is a great distraction if they get worried.
last thought, i'd put him in a full cheek happy mouth for a while, or back in a nathe, stick with something he was totally happy with until everything's good, then think about changing things...
oh, and since he's being daft at the moment, i'd always have a bp on...
hope that helps a bit! pls keep us posted...
 
thank you so much everyone - this is fab advice : ) i do of course realise that he is probably very bewildered which is why i take everything so slow with him - literally everything is at a snails pace with lots of pats and reassurance at every step. i literally take 30 minutes to tack him up, we do lots of walking inhand once in the menage and just generally treat him very baby-baby. i dont normally do treats and youngsters because i thought he might get a bit nippy? but perhaps i will relax this rule :)

So, riding-wise after the initial getting on bit where he is tense for about 5 minutes and jogs a bit, he is absolutely fine in walk to stop and steer. He can get a bit tense and jog a bit at times, but i just try to talk to him, pet him and reassure him, and he does chill out. it is so important to me to have each of his riding experiences a positive one. So sometimes i just stay at walk. Trot is where the problem is. hes kind of OK on the track, but you take him onto a circle and he just gets faster and faster and stronger in the trot, and the steering goes. Even in a normal trot if you give the aids for walk he just seems to ignore them, both on lunge and riding. it takes a long time for me to stop from trot.. a loooong time. giving him stronger voice, seat or rein aids just makes it worse, and *then* he panics.

I dont think given that i cant stop him bitless will work. i just dont personally think i will feel safe.

saddle-wise he is in a borrowed prestige jumping saddle while i try to find a saddler who px'es in our area. it is a serious, serious nice fit. I am about the same size/weight as the dealrer who had him ( im 5ft 2 and 9 stone, he is 15.3 atm ) and at the moment i am only giving the lightest leg aids to help with steering and wrapping my legs lightly in downward transitions. he is seriously forward going.

Am really trying to reinforce with voice, but he just ignores. so i dont think hes ever been used to voice commands.

It is difficult because i dont normally have a helper with me due to the times i ride ( normally in the evening ) so i find myself lungeing more because thats something i can do without help. but i think youre right kerilli - baby basics for him - i have no shame anyway!


and yep always wearing BP!

sorry it got long guys!! just so difficult to explain. hes not nasty with it, he doesnt seem to hugely panic unless you pile the pressure on, he has just never learned to stop!
 
ah, right, okay. well, it sounds as if you're doing everything right, but he's still getting stressy about something. i'd still try a different saddle, however good that one looks.
i'd try the trotting with a leader then, even if it's just 10 paces. see if he gets worried with someone at his head. i'd vary your leg aid to decelerate too, maybe he thinks your 'rebalancing light wrap around of legs' (which normally i'd say is absolutely the right thing to do, btw) means 'go faster'... try bringing shoulders and waist back and having that as your aid, say. they learn this one fast from walk to halt imho, and then easily from trot to walk...
i'd beg/borrow/bribe someone to help, it's only 10 mins and you could always swap favours or something maybe? i won't ride youngsters without someone there on the ground now, just having them there makes me relax more which is a good thing anyway, and i found out the hard way 2 years ago just how embarrassing it is to have to sit, injured and useless, in the arena calling 'help, help' to the neighbours...! ;) ;)
 
Sounds like a neckstrap would help. My young horse went through a phase of being a bit difficult to stop out hacking but he was fine in the school. It really helped me as I could stop him with the neckstap alone and I didn't have to pull on his mouth. He soon grew out of it, it was just the excitement of going out made him forget to stop!
 
if you are not in a hurray, and you shouldnt be!! go back to basics. tack up and lunge for 10 to 15 mins. then long rein in w/t for 15 mins concentrating on steering, brakes and voice command, then sit on for 10 mins repeating the exercise for steering and brakes. do this for a couple of weeks and you should be fine. it is not normal for a young horse that has been properly done to panic. dont think he is quite at the stage of training where is will understand a half halt!! would also advise 24 hr turnout, and no bucket food til he is settled and listening, and calm in his attitude. if you feel you are out of your depth then NOW is the time to get professional hlp, and keep the horse working. be involved if you get help so you can be consistant in his education.Also please get someone to be around when riding youor young horse, just in case. i am sure in a few weeks he will be the lovely youngster that youo bought. Please dont be afraid to ask/get help as the sooner he learns the ropes the better. Good luck
 
wow thanks kerelli - id never thought of trotting with a leader! thats a particularly fab idea - it will help me see if he feels reassured by a person or not. i will get a saddler out as soon as i can, and get the saddle checked/refitted - unfortunately i havent had much luck buying saddles for him recently so am hoping if i can find a saddler that part ex's that can fit him in something not too expensive as i am expecting him to grow a little more and change shape.

i have tried legs off completely i trot ( at my trainers suggestion ) but it didnt seem to make much difference to him, he just kept ploughing on!! half halts are completely ignored and i have tried leaning so far back i feel like i am riding western and its all ignored :( but i will keep plugging away - tho i do feel like i am riding like a numpty at times!

hopefully my OH will be able to help in the evenings - hes not particularly horsey but useful as a person on the ground :)

thanks foxford but neckstraps are ignored too, and seemed to annoy him a bit, so i took it off again and i have a balance strap on the saddle. perhaps ill go back to the neckstrap!
 
Just a thought but you say he's been imported - where from? If it wasn't an English speaking yard he won't have learnt his basic voice commands in English (I know it should be tone of voice that counts rather than exact words, but just a thought).
 
He has prob been rushed been backed, i would go totally back to basics ie lunging and long lining alot of people tend to miss L L and thats where you get your stering and brakes. If he was mine i would also throw him out for a few weeks to totally settle down.
 
Is this the poor horse that has been in about 4 different homes in as many months& imported everywhere? he must have had a really rough time I would seriously consider just leaving him alone for about 6 weeks then starting again.

Youngsters get brain-fry so easily and when they have been overdone, and then they get tense and worried and confused:confused:
 
hes a dutch warmblood - but i know they use 'whoah' over there too but really using a loooow tone of voice for stop and a high-ish clicky voice for upward transitions - see! i sound like a complete numpty!

i think they he has been rushed too - as i understand that is the way they do things there? they seemed more interested in his head carriage, not the basics like brakes!

oh and just to add - no brakes in trot on long lines either, but fine in walk.
 
Foxford said:
Sounds like a neckstrap would help. My young horse went through a phase of being a bit difficult to stop out hacking but he was fine in the school. It really helped me as I could stop him with the neckstap alone and I didn't have to pull on his mouth. He soon grew out of it, it was just the excitement of going out made him forget to stop!
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this. Teach him to stop using the neckstrap and not the reins. They pick it up very quickly and it saves their mouths being ruined.
 
he same direct from breeder, so i am his 3rd home in 4 years. I see your point though. Gotta say though he is totally chilled in all other respects... if i thought he desperately needed more time of course he would have it and its always an option.
 
I agree with Kerilli about the bit - some horses find the plate of a french link a little sharp and need a softer bit. Some thoughts would be nathe, happymouth (with cheeks if necessary), jointed rubber (with cheeks), metal jointed snaffle with cheeks (? with lozenge. Cottage craft do a very nice one), Neue Schule starter or team up. Normally a straight bit makes steering less refined.
If it is the trot that is the problem do short bits of trot, on the track if it helps. It can be a slow "easy" trot with no power, then walk for a few strides and repeat. For a young horse use less seat and not too much leg in the downward transition - keep it simple. At this stage it is leg to go and rein to stop (soft repeated aids not a long pull). You are not looking for more engagement so light with the leg and seat is for impulsion and bigger steps so you don't need that at the moment. Make the transitions as you come towards the fence as that will help to back him off and slow him. When you can do that then you can increase the length of trot, etc. With the circles, start by turning a little early at the end of the long side. When you can do a half circle then go further and do the other half. You can feel the time to ride the trot more forward. While you don't want to overdo him, just be careful to do enough that he isn't too fresh. Also, while you don't want to frighten him, if you do things too slowly it can make them think there is something to be scared of. It is best to be quite matter-of-fact an quietly but firmly show them what you want. They trust you more if you are positive and quietly mean what you say.
 
totally agree with all that, and oldvic's last point is what i wanted to say but couldn't quite work out how to... 30 mins to tack up is too hesitant tbh, i think he might start looking for problems/trouble... just getting on with it an doing things calmly and efficiently reassures horses.
your non-horsey OH will be just fine as a helper, that's what i'm used to having as my helper. i haven't found that a few pony nuts as a distraction/treat makes them nippy at all, fwiw.
 
I hadn't read Kerilli's 2nd post but a leader may well help. If he doesn't understand the voice on the lunge then this needs teaching from the ground. Walk, halt on the lunge line but with you leading rather than lungeing and the voice backing up the aid from the line, then a few strides trot then walk in the same way. It doesn't take long to establish some ground rules, then let him out on the line so you are at a safe distance but not too far away and repeat asking for the downward transition towards the corner. Also it is a good idea to have a neckstrap on any young horse even if you don't really use it - you never know when it might come in handy.
 
The neckstrap is a brilliant tool for slowing and stopping any horse. Introduced to me by Dot Willis who hates seeing horses being pulled in the mouth. I would not ride a young horse without one and only use the reins to slow down when the horse is working in balance and has accepted the contact in a relaxed manner (unless it is an emergency!)
 
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