Just broken in horse working in an outline?

lialls

lialls

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Finding it really difficult to word this so that you understand what i'm asking so here gos anyway.

I've seen a few pictures of 'just broken horses' who are working in a nice outline. I'm interested to know if you can train a horse (through the ground work you do before) to work in an outline as soon as it starts ridden work? is it that it comes more naturally to some horses than others? or is it the way they have ridden from day one of ridden work?

This is a friend of mine riding a 15.2, 4 year old WB. Apperently she had only been broken in 2 weeks before this picture was taken. I have no idea what method was used to break her in or how/if they did any ground work with her.
horse.jpg

So, dos it just come naturally to this mare? Was she trained to be like this? or is it how she had been ridden?
 
That is not a 'nice outline' it is short in the neck and overbent. The poll should be the highest point - in that picture the horse has 'broken' its neck at the third vertebra and come into a false outline.
I realise it is currently fashionable to ride like this, however it will not do the horse any good in the long term.
 
I was always taught that taking up a light, consistant contact and coming sweetly off the leg should be well established before an outline is asked for.
 
I know someone who breaks in horses using all sorts of contraptions to force the head down. I guess they see it as training the horse to "work in an outline" from the very beginning, although looks pretty false to me! Unfortunately it has now meant that the horses in question are very unbalanced without the training aids, they are also not well muscled. Sadly they do so, so that the horse looks nice when advertised for sale.

I am sure you can train a horse to work in a proper outline from the beginning however only using correct methods.
 
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If you give a horse a mouth properly when you break it in then it will work towards the bit from the beginning. This is often not done however and the horse gets pulled into shape instead in order to create an outline.
The neck should be soft with a relaxed underside and the nose should be slightly in front of the verticle

This is newly broken and how I like them to start-
Floppyad2-1.jpg
 
Not being asked as such... 3 years old, 3 weeks since being started. She has been long lined since she was 2 and 'understands'. Not a 'true' outline but she strides out nicely and, more importantly, isn't developing incorrect musculature.

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Ok so the horses i've been seeing in adverts lately who look to be working in an outline arn't to be desired for? I didnt think it was possible for it to be real at such an early stage which was why i was asking. Thanks for that.

So how long after a horse has been broken in would you like to see it working in a correct outline? or dos this differ from horse to horse as to when they are ready for that?
 
I can't comment on this, as I've never broken in a horse from scratch, but I have reschooled ex racers. if it was up to me, I would rather it was just going forwards from the leg - forget where the head is,that will sort in time when the horse learns to balance itself. I have an ex-racehorse which I'm starting to retrain - she's currently doing in hand roadwork and very light lunging on big circles and using the whole of the school. I keep getting told how I should tie her head in with a pessoa, side reins, bungee, draw reins, chambon etc etc. No thanks, I'll do it my way, in my own sweet time. I would prefer her to have natural balanced paces without having her head tied to her chest! And as someone has already said - the highest point should be the poll, although some dressage judges appear to be blind to this....
 
TheMule said:
If you give a horse a mouth properly when you break it in then it will work towards the bit from the beginning. This is often not done however and the horse gets pulled into shape instead in order to create an outline.
The neck should be soft with a relaxed underside and the nose should be slightly in front of the verticle

This is newly broken and how I like them to start-
Floppyad2-1.jpg
Click to expand...


I love love love this horse! What a superstar in the making.
 
TheMule and Inky_and _sunny, what training have you done with your horses? How much ground work did you do and what ground work did you do? Do you think that it comes more naturally to some horses to work like that or do you think that it can be taught with the right training?

Both the horses look really good. Well done.
 
Our last 4yo worked in a naturally soft outline with no rein contact. He just went that way from day one. He even trotted across the field like that on his own. He was never worked in side reins or any gagets at all. He did however evade contact when he felt like it by overbending so he was not always "correct". We bought him just backed and he could walk and trot but was still very unbalanced in canter so was not over schooled. It was a while before he willingly worked into a contact. He always looked good though!
 
lialls said:
TheMule and Inky_and _sunny, what training have you done with your horses? How much ground work did you do and what ground work did you do? Do you think that it comes more naturally to some horses to work like that or do you think that it can be taught with the right training?

Both the horses look really good. Well done.
Click to expand...

Mine did some in hand work (me walking with her asking for flexions from the bit) lunged for about 2 weeks in a very loose side reins and did a very small amount on long reins whilst she was getting used to being sat on in the stable. She did all of her ridden work off the lunge- she went straight and forwards literally from the word go which is my ideal.
She has conformation in her favour but I believe the in hand work from the rein is key- she worked like this from first ride because she understood what pressure on the mouth meant.
 
lialls said:
TheMule and Inky_and _sunny, what training have you done with your horses? How much ground work did you do and what ground work did you do? Do you think that it comes more naturally to some horses to work like that or do you think that it can be taught with the right training?

Both the horses look really good. Well done.
Click to expand...

Not mine, but my friends. She has done 12 months of ground work before backing her. Long lining, in-hand work, all without draw reins though she did use a bungee - mainly to get her striding through from behind...
 
I think it very much depends on the horse.

We've had some that have natural self carriage therefore working in an outline begins quite early on.

There have also been a few that evade contact etc and it's taken much longer to encourage them to work properly in an outline.

As we don't have a menage, the majority of schooling (after the backing/breaking) is done out on hacks. Stress free for the horse with no pressure. When the basics are established, we then school in a field or hire an arena to work on bending and flexion & then we build on more from there.

As others have said, the most important thing for a youngster is that it's happy and very willing to go forward and off the leg. Always nice to have a forward not backward thinking horse :)
 
TheMule said:
If you give a horse a mouth properly when you break it in then it will work towards the bit from the beginning. This is often not done however and the horse gets pulled into shape instead in order to create an outline.
Click to expand...

Superb post.

I have two young horses that I have never "asked" for an "outline" (other than work in loose sidereins was part of the breaking process to learn that you have to accept some contact on a rein) but they carry themselves in a nice shape without asking, have done from even 2nd or 3rd time under saddle, I ride them with a very light rein and close leg but haven't used rein for anything other than early very immature steering aids - obvisouly now they will move from seat and weight aids but I have never had to "ask" for a contact, its just there from the start.

One of them doens't look like he should ever have both ends in one county, however he has always carried himself nicely, he was shown as youngstock in hand with good success (at SHB GB finals) and always trotted out nicely.
 
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Some horses, because of their conformation, find it a lot easier to go in an outline than others but at the same time I am a strong believer that when newly broken, they need the use of their neck and head as their balancing pole which is impossible if they are held too rigidly; they need to be secure in their balance before you should ever ask for a contact IMV.
Love both those examples but especially Inky & Sunny's; would take that home!
 
TheMule said:
If you give a horse a mouth properly when you break it in then it will work towards the bit from the beginning. This is often not done however and the horse gets pulled into shape instead in order to create an outline.
The neck should be soft with a relaxed underside and the nose should be slightly in front of the verticle

This is newly broken and how I like them to start-
Floppyad2-1.jpg
Click to expand...

Completely off topic, but I recognise this horse :p
 
Rebelzmum said:
I can't comment on this, as I've never broken in a horse from scratch, but I have reschooled ex racers. if it was up to me, I would rather it was just going forwards from the leg - forget where the head is,that will sort in time when the horse learns to balance itself. I have an ex-racehorse which I'm starting to retrain - she's currently doing in hand roadwork and very light lunging on big circles and using the whole of the school. I keep getting told how I should tie her head in with a pessoa, side reins, bungee, draw reins, chambon etc etc. No thanks, I'll do it my way, in my own sweet time. I would prefer her to have natural balanced paces without having her head tied to her chest! And as someone has already said - the highest point should be the poll, although some dressage judges appear to be blind to this....
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Ooooooh!! I'll be picking your brains in the Spring of next year! Mine's a 2.5yr old ex-racer so i've turfed him out to grass since September to grow up a bit as he is utterly clueless about everything! He's really good with traffic - take him out on a walk when my friend rides and he doesn't bat an eye. Only thing he clearly he hasn't seen is cows, which is unstandable for a racehorse - he didn't jump sideways and squish me or anything, just blew a lot of air and snot out of his nostrils!

I too would rather he learnt to balance himself properly rather than "pulling" his head in. You do see a lot of horses nowadays that are overbent.
 
IMHO for young horses and green horses the poll shouldn't be the highest point, that is quite an advanced outline (or a nose pulled in ...) I use the same principle for all the ex racers i work with. (day to day job is reschooling, breaking, etc :-) )

Rather them work long and low on a light rein to learn to stretch their backs and accept everything thats going on above them and around them.
 
TheMule said:
Lol!

Maybe you can tell me if my methods work long term....!!

And isnt she beautiful?!
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Yes, and Yes :)
We went to Rockbourne today and she jumped everything in front of her including bounding down the steps into water (first time ever) - she is forward, rideable and quick off her feet :) You must come and have a ride next time you are in our area :D
 
Agree with fleabittengrey - a horse when young should work long and low, gradually coming up in front as strength behind increases, and the ability of the horse to carry himself.

A young horse can work naturally that way or not.

A young horse is taught straightness, balance and to go forward from the leg.

But a horse needs to go forward from the leg into a contact; so some will naturally accept the contact and others wont.
 
Haven't read all the posts but the horse in the initial picture is not in an outline it's got it's head bent in... there's a difference.

BUT

I have seen some German horses working in a true outline that quickly... they were worked on the lunge for some time before ppl sitting on their back and some of these german dressage horses are so bred that way that they trot round the fields in an outline as babies... it's just their natural way of going... As a general rule tho' unless it is naturally coming from the horse I wouldn't be asking for a shape until the horses back muscles are built up a bit to allow it without injury
 
i didn;t lung emy youngster in any contraptions or whatever to make him round. i didnt lunge him in side reins or anything. i tried him loosely in the pessoa twice then decided it wasnt a too good idea. I then rode him about 8 times before sending him away to be backed and then rode him for 2 more weeks after before turning him away.
he had a very good, soft neck and went into a outline very easily. I rode him to begin with with extreemly loose reins so i had next to no contact on his mouth, just enough to steer etc so when i took more of a contact he became round very easily and wasn;t in a false outline though at times did become a little over bent which i pushed him out from but from what i've seen a lot of horses become a little over round easily at times.
he wasnt in a consistent outline or anything. the second last time i rode him i took up more of a contact and started tiny half halts and he understood this very easily and so by the last time i rode him he went like this:
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i wouldnt expect this from every horse. if, when i took up a contact they wouldnt round at all, i wouldnt "force" them or anything at 3 years old.
 
fleabittengrey said:
IMHO for young horses and green horses the poll shouldn't be the highest point, that is quite an advanced outline (or a nose pulled in ...) I use the same principle for all the ex racers i work with. (day to day job is reschooling, breaking, etc :-) )

Rather them work long and low on a light rein to learn to stretch their backs and accept everything thats going on above them and around them.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. The outline a baby is in now will probably not be the same as when it is older and more establised. This is my 4yr ex racer a couple of months after we got him. He would either ride overbent and long or like a giraffe. But we found that riding him that bit overbent and long better for him as he was alot more flexable to stir and more balanced. Then as he built up topline and became more establised he eventually came more up and into a better frame. First photo is him at 4;
trot2.jpg

And at 5/6;
SP_A0957.jpg
 
as others have said it really depends upon the horse- but would agree that first pic the OP put on isn't 'working correctly' - it is slightly overbent to me...

my young horse is naturally built 'on the bit' so even when he isn't working correctly he can look like he is- what he struggles with, however, is taking the contact forwards properly and so he doesn't always work over his back- he sits in a 'nice' contact but evades working properly...
 
Very similar to TheMule, but I too like to see horses stretching into the contact as opposed to being "in an outline" as such. This will then give them the strength to carry themselves properly, and eventually take more weight behind to allow them to carry themselves in a more advanced outline. Both my horses were taught to go out a steady but soft rein contact early on, and the importance of going off the leg. My gelding was long reined a lot, the bay (my mare) wasn't as much. Both were backed by proper old nagsmen as opposed to "competition producers" who are often the ones to have them in false outlines.
Mare:
20938_255718941857_593546857_4852959_1431634_n.jpg


Sorry got no pics of the gelding on my PC anymore :(
 
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