just got double barreled my a horse

Not sure if anyone will get this far, but the OP doesnt mention where in the field she was. This happened to me when turning my boy out once into a field with a very 'clingy' horse. Said horse was over to us as i was taking my boy's headcollar off and suddenly all three of us were bunched up together with my boy trying to turn around and walk away, the other horse up against us and the electric fence to my right. The horses could possibly have sorted themselves out, but the fence and i were in the way. The clingy horse tried to get out of the way and panicked, turned and planted both back feet on my thigh as he went. As some others have said, you need always to be aware around flight animals, and always reading what they are thinking and doing. Within seconds stuff happens.
 
dunkley said:
There can be thoroughly bad tempered horses, in the same way there can be thoroughly bad tempered humans. I have one. I have had it since it was a baby - it is now 12. I can assure you he has never been mishandled, abused, or otherwise traumatised. Some days he is an affectionate darling, others he is a total bad tempered, aggressive S***. Some days he will fall asleep while you groom every inch of him, some days he will, in no uncertain terms, tell you to get lost! He needs reading, and appropriate handling. I would never allow anyone to go into his field unaccompanied, unless they knew him, and were "proper" horsemen. He has been known to chase people out with a combination of feet and teeth. So, yes, he can be damn nasty :o
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Animals have their own personalities, yes, but they're not mean, some are just more tolerant than others. "he has been known to chase people out with a combination of feet and teeth" This is a learned behavior. He knows he can get rid of people by doing this. "proper horsemen" know how to correct these behaviors therefore he respects these people.
 
HeatherAnn said:
Animals have their own personalities, yes, but they're not mean, some are just more tolerant than others. "he has been known to chase people out with a combination of feet and teeth" This is a learned behavior. He knows he can get rid of people by doing this. "proper horsemen" know how to correct these behaviors therefore he respects these people.
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I am interested in your "learned behaviour" comment.
Where/who from?
None of his field companions act in the same way.
They have been the same companions for ever.
He is not at the top of the pecking order, nor at the bottom.
He is neither bullied, nor isolated.
If he ever threatens me (I am top dog) he gets short shrift.
Yes, he has a big personality, and has always been challenging.
But it is him, just the way he is, never been any different.
I won't put human emotions, or thought processes, into an animal.
They don't reason, they have little brains, which is probably why we use them, not the other way round (mostly!).
I will, however, use words such as "nasty", "kind", "intelligent" "talented" etc etc to describe an animal's behaviour. My horse can be damn rude. It's not acceptable, and he gets put back in his place. It is his behaviour I am describing, not his thought processes. ;)
 
ladyt25 said:
I haven't read all the replies but I do agree a horse cannot be 'nasty' as nasty is a term we use as humans and would mean a horse has given some thought to it's actions and that (in this case) it wants to inflict pain on a person. Horse do not think this way! i imagine the horse in question is higher in the pecking order than the OP's horse and was probably wanting to move the OPs horse out of its way but did not take the OP being there in to account. I have a pony like this - he would NEVER intentionally kick a person but he can get a bit caught up in his temper tantrums and i am always aware to not stand behind him if it's between him an another of our 'gang'. Only this morning i was putting my horse out and pony evidently felt he was a threat to the miniscule amount of hay he had and started reversing, squealing and kicking out (this is what he does!). With him though a quick "Oi, idiot" at him usually is enough to stop him and make him aware you're there.

If this horse is really a problem then I would certainly discuss the behaviour with the owner and come to a decision of how best to sort it. As other posters said as well (and i don't have children). I wouldn't really let a 4 yo in to a field with a herd of horses. My horses are not aggressive in the slightest but they're still half a tonne of unpredictable animal!!
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Horses do think this way! One of my 'more difficult' ponies had played up for the farrier whilst OH was holding him and OH smacked him. The next night, after bringing in and feeding we were doing our checks and were in said pony's box which he shared with his son. As we walked behind the boys, the way we did every night, I watched the pony turn and 'measure' the kick he gave my OH, he was very careful not to get me. This pony had never kicked before in the 5 years I had owned him (from being a youngster) and has never once kicked since. He kicked to pay OH back for smacking him because he was upset about it. This was over 24 hours after he had been smacked (and it was a smack, not a beating)
 
dunkley said:
I am interested in your "learned behaviour" comment.
Where/who from?
None of his field companions act in the same way.
They have been the same companions for ever.
He is not at the top of the pecking order, nor at the bottom.
He is neither bullied, nor isolated.
If he ever threatens me (I am top dog) he gets short shrift.
Yes, he has a big personality, and has always been challenging.
But it is him, just the way he is, never been any different.
I won't put human emotions, or thought processes, into an animal.
They don't reason, they have little brains, which is probably why we use them, not the other way round (mostly!).
I will, however, use words such as "nasty", "kind", "intelligent" "talented" etc etc to describe an animal's behaviour. My horse can be damn rude. It's not acceptable, and he gets put back in his place. It is his behaviour I am describing, not his thought processes. ;)
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I don't mean learned as in he's seen someone do it, but rather he's done it to someone he didn't respect and it worked, he learned to do that to get rid of people. Everyone uses personification on animals, I'm just trying to point out that and animal can't be mean or kind because they don't have the capabilities, but they do have characteristics that can be associated with the human norm of this trait. You're right, they have very little reasoning, but when they know something works to their advantage, they are more likely to repeat it. Eg you tell a dog to sit, he sits, he gets a treat. He learns that sitting=treat/affection.
 
HeatherAnn said:
I came to this forum ready to learn and share. Not to be shot down by someone who thinks they have been there done that.
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But that's exactly what you're doing - dismissing others' opinions and experiences. You can't have it both ways - wanting people to give weight to your opinion but you not giving weight to theirs.

And frankly, I do disagree with you. Horses are not aggressive solely from fear or pain. Some horses are aggressive because they have an aggressive temperament - you can breed aggression you know, just as you can breed for docility.
 
Even an "aggressive" horse will give some warning of what's coming. The problem is that we can miss it, and also the warning can be quite brief.
The severity of the resulting damage to the human tends to be applied to the horse's personality. So if the horse just shoves it's "cheeky", if it nips it's "naughty" and if it makes contact with hooves it's "aggressive". Whatever, this horse felt a need for either op or her horse to move and they didn't. It is hard sometimes when one horse in a field is getting attention (and maybe a treat or two) and the other horse isn't.
As others have said, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is a nasty horse, I'd change the way I managed the situation so that I avoided the situation again. 4 year old child in an enclosure by the gate, never in the field with you and more than one horse. Catch up your horse and take it to the enclosure for fuss and the sort of slow stuff that you do with a 4 year old at your elbow. Also, take something like a spare leadrope into the field with you and use that to spin at the other horse to ask him to stay away (with the clip in your hand) - right from the moment you go into the field. Get into the habit of asking this horse to keep it's distance when you're dealing with your own horses. I see so many people catching or otherwise dealing with their horses while others crowd in around them. There's no need to do that and it's likely to cause problems.
 
Quote de Pearlsasinger
We keep ours at home in our own small herd. If I want one of them, I bring them all in, in their hierarchical order and put back out the ones I don't need at that point. This is much safer for all concerned.

With my horses I am the herd leader
 
baymareb said:
But that's exactly what you're doing - dismissing others' opinions and experiences. You can't have it both ways - wanting people to give weight to your opinion but you not giving weight to theirs.

And frankly, I do disagree with you. Horses are not aggressive solely from fear or pain. Some horses are aggressive because they have an aggressive temperament - you can breed aggression you know, just as you can breed for docility.
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Agree with this
 
"Nasty" is a human construct - unique to us, or shared with other primates. A horse may act out of aggression, but any nastiness is in the eye of the beholder i.e. us humans. Is it meaningful to say that a wasp stinging someone was acting out of nastiness? Horses lack the ability to think in such high-level, moralistic terms. Even if you insist on describing the horse's violent behaviour directed at a person as "nasty", you risk coming up with an inappropriate response if you assume that the horse's nastiness is like that of human. The sad thing is that actually happens! People respond to bad behaviour in horses in hopelessly counterproductive ways - like punishing a horse long after it has misbehaved because "he knows that kicking is wrong" (for example).

Allover said:
TBH i dont care what the reason/excuse is for a horse kicking out at a human, the horse should have enough respect to know that that is NOT allowed.
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Rather that saying that respect leads a horse to behave in ways that we like, you can turn it around and say that good behaviour is what seems respectful to us - i.e. you teach good behaviour and get "respect" as a result, instead of teaching respect and getting good behaviour as a result. I very much prefer to teach good behaviour.
 
Tinypony said:
Even an "aggressive" horse will give some warning of what's coming. The problem is that we can miss it, and also the warning can be quite brief.
The severity of the resulting damage to the human tends to be applied to the horse's personality. So if the horse just shoves it's "cheeky", if it nips it's "naughty" and if it makes contact with hooves it's "aggressive". Whatever, this horse felt a need for either op or her horse to move and they didn't. It is hard sometimes when one horse in a field is getting attention (and maybe a treat or two) and the other horse isn't.
As others have said, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is a nasty horse, I'd change the way I managed the situation so that I avoided the situation again. 4 year old child in an enclosure by the gate, never in the field with you and more than one horse. Catch up your horse and take it to the enclosure for fuss and the sort of slow stuff that you do with a 4 year old at your elbow. Also, take something like a spare leadrope into the field with you and use that to spin at the other horse to ask him to stay away (with the clip in your hand) - right from the moment you go into the field. Get into the habit of asking this horse to keep it's distance when you're dealing with your own horses. I see so many people catching or otherwise dealing with their horses while others crowd in around them. There's no need to do that and it's likely to cause problems.
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Excellent advice!
 
I agree with fburton and others regarding 'nasty' horses. 'Nasty' is a conscious behaviour that cannot be applied to horses because they do not have the concept of 'nasty'. Some horses may have a temperament that makes them more likely to act aggressively. They virtually always have a reason, be it fear, anger, or purely a hierachy issue. Some horses have such a short fuse that they are not suitable for being a domestic horse. Such horses could be termed as dangerous and should be PTS. However, MOST horses that behave this way do so for a solvable reason, and can be turned around through good horsemanship and understanding into well adjusted and well behaved equines.
 
Tinypony said:
Even an "aggressive" horse will give some warning of what's coming. The problem is that we can miss it, and also the warning can be quite brief.
The severity of the resulting damage to the human tends to be applied to the horse's personality. So if the horse just shoves it's "cheeky", if it nips it's "naughty" and if it makes contact with hooves it's "aggressive". Whatever, this horse felt a need for either op or her horse to move and they didn't. It is hard sometimes when one horse in a field is getting attention (and maybe a treat or two) and the other horse isn't.
As others have said, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is a nasty horse, I'd change the way I managed the situation so that I avoided the situation again. 4 year old child in an enclosure by the gate, never in the field with you and more than one horse. Catch up your horse and take it to the enclosure for fuss and the sort of slow stuff that you do with a 4 year old at your elbow. Also, take something like a spare leadrope into the field with you and use that to spin at the other horse to ask him to stay away (with the clip in your hand) - right from the moment you go into the field. Get into the habit of asking this horse to keep it's distance when you're dealing with your own horses. I see so many people catching or otherwise dealing with their horses while others crowd in around them. There's no need to do that and it's likely to cause problems.
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That's really helpful - thank you. My pony has moved fields and I now have to go thorugh fields with several horses, to get her to and from her field. It's becoming quite difficult at times and - having only looked after stabled horses before - I wasn't sure how to handle the situation safely when the other horses start coming too close. Spare lead rope is an excellent idea.
 
baymareb said:
But that's exactly what you're doing - dismissing others' opinions and experiences. You can't have it both ways - wanting people to give weight to your opinion but you not giving weight to theirs.

And frankly, I do disagree with you. Horses are not aggressive solely from fear or pain. Some horses are aggressive because they have an aggressive temperament - you can breed aggression you know, just as you can breed for docility.
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I expressed an opinion and it was dismissed by someone "who has been round horses all their lives" When someone uses this excuse to actively dismiss my opinion then IMO I have every right to dismiss their opinion. Which is not something I would normally do, but in this case I nearly 100% disagree with their view. I haven't said that horses can't have aggressive tendencies. I actually pointed out that temperament can be a factor in tolerance.
 
HA, I actually wrote some nice things about you but they've been dismissed.

When talking between humans about horses we use terms we can understand and relate to. I can't type horse on a forum, they haven't taught me yet.

And with bringing horses in from a field, I'm on my own. I do not have time for disrespect on their parts. I've never given it much thought because if I need someone I go and get them. That is the way it is. As a previous poster said, I am the herd boss.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
When talking between humans about horses we use terms we can understand and relate to.
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Yes, terms that we also hope won't mislead ourselves or others into unproductive lines of thought and action. Not saying that e.g. "nasty", "naughty" or "respect" (to take three common terms) are bound to be misleading - but the potential is certainly there!
 
moodiestmare said:
I have just got back from an emergency drs appt. Nothing is broken thankfully!

I have seen this horse kick out a lot but never seen him just go up to someone like that!

Unfortunately I have a 4 yr old son and now im worried about him going into the field with this horse. As his pony is turned out with this horse it creates a bit of a problem! Also, its quite scared me!
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I'm sorry - I'm going to sound like the health and safety police, but . . . please don't take your 4-year-old with you into the field - no matter which horse is in there. I realize this may be impractical, but horses are skitty flight animals and anything could happen - and your little boy's head and face are right at "kick height."

That said, I agree with whoever said the kick was probably intended for your horse but it still warrants mentioning to the owner. At our previous yard there was a particularly nasty gelding who was in with my boy. Said gelding was also a nighmare when tied up on the yard - to horses and humans alike . . . very handy with his feet and teeth, so we all learned to steer clear of both ends.

P
 
So - now that we appear to have completely hijacked this thread to talk about what constitutes "aggression" in a horse . . . LOL.

I have a question - I keep hearing (or should that be reading) about horses who wouldn't DREAM of kicking out at a person but don't like other horses - and somehow that's all down to herd dynamics and doesn't mean the horse is aggressive (I'm not going to use the word "nasty"). What about horses who will go out of their way to kick out at or bite people? I get that said horses may have insecurity issues which make them defensive . . . but when does defensiveness cross over into aggression (or doesn't it ever?).

A gelding at our previous yard was a real so-and-so . . . always raised his foot and struck out or got his teeth out if anyone walked past (in or out of range) . . . he was the same in the field - saw him double barrel the herd boss right in the chest for no reason I could decipher (which, I accept, doesn't mean there wasn't a reason). I totally accept that he may have been "made" that way by people, or perhaps other horses . . . but at what point do other liveries get to stop make allowances for his (frankly) anti-social behaviour because it isn't his fault - and hold his owner accountable?

If people make horses aggressive, then isn't it up to owners of aggressive horses to do something to make them less anti-social? I keep my horse for pleasure - I don't necessarily mind having to remember to steer a wide berth around someone else's horse b/c he or she wants to take a chunk out of me - but it still isn't particularly "nice."

P
 
I think one of the issues with keeping horses in livery is that the only horse whose behaviour one really has any influence over is one's own. I have sympathy with the idea that most horses which show aggressive tendencies have been 'made' that way by poor/unpleasant handling, but it's not my responsibility to make allowances for the behaviour of someone else's horse.

If the animal has a history of doing this kind of thing, then anyone who needs to be involved with it should be made aware so that they can be mindful of the fact. Of course we should always be watchful around horses as we know they're not predictable animals all the time, but forewarned is forearmed and all that. I think I would speak to the animal's owner, in as non-confrontational style as possible, and the YO, because I'd feel dreadful if the horse did it to someone else and I hadn't made anyone aware.

I don't wish to be judgemental regarding small children around horses - I remember being in stables and fields with horses from a very young age, although never unsupervised. I think that's partly where most of us gain our 'horse sense'.
 
PolarSkye said:
I have a question - I keep hearing (or should that be reading) about horses who wouldn't DREAM of kicking out at a person but don't like other horses - and somehow that's all down to herd dynamics and doesn't mean the horse is aggressive (I'm not going to use the word "nasty").
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I like "aggressive" - it's not a loaded word like "nasty".

A gelding at our previous yard was a real so-and-so . . . always raised his foot and struck out or got his teeth out if anyone walked past (in or out of range) . . . he was the same in the field - saw him double barrel the herd boss right in the chest for no reason I could decipher (which, I accept, doesn't mean there wasn't a reason).
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This is an important observation that's worth quoting again. Being "herd boss" is no guarantee that you won't be the target of aggressive behaviour. Arguably it is better to be liked rather than feared or viewed with distrust or wariness. Personally I think too much is made of the idea of subordinates "respecting" dominants. The way that horses lower in the dominance hierarchy are displaced by (i.e. get out of the way of) higher ranking horses may look like respect to us, but to what extent is it like the human attitude? Very little, it seems to me!
 
I/we got double barrelled also at an SJ on Sunday in the collecting ring. I was on my horse standing next to a mare whom I had sold a year previously. She always hated my gelding and towards the later stages had to be separated from him. She is the cleverest horse I have ever owned and I would lay money that right from the start (we are out alot together) she knew exactly who he was. Doesn't fit with any theory/logic but if it is true (and I believe it to be) then it just goes to show how calculating they can be!
 
scarymare said:
I/we got double barrelled also at an SJ on Sunday in the collecting ring. I was on my horse standing next to a mare whom I had sold a year previously. She always hated my gelding and towards the later stages had to be separated from him. She is the cleverest horse I have ever owned and I would lay money that right from the start (we are out alot together) she knew exactly who he was. Doesn't fit with any theory/logic but if it is true (and I believe it to be) then it just goes to show how calculating they can be!
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Was it rational calculation or was it pure emotion? Either way, she clearly has a good memory!
 
OldNag said:
That's really helpful - thank you. My pony has moved fields and I now have to go thorugh fields with several horses, to get her to and from her field. It's becoming quite difficult at times and - having only looked after stabled horses before - I wasn't sure how to handle the situation safely when the other horses start coming too close. Spare lead rope is an excellent idea.
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(I just wanted to pick up on this reply to my post).
Oldnag, that could be quite a tricky situation you're dealing with. If you're dealing with larger numbers of horses, that aren't normally living in the same field as your pony, just be careful. It's one thing to send one pushy field companion away, another to sort out a group of them milling around you. I'm pretty confident of my advice in Op's case, where there are two horses involved that are used to each other. In your situation I'd be more cautious and probably want to see what's happening before trying to help you.
Anyway, stay safe. :-)
 
p.s. I can't help sharing a thought that just came into my mind. "Parelli People" tend not to have problems with getting mobbed when dealing with their horses in the field. As a result of intensive "Friendly Game" sessions they are often able to stand next to their horse while holding their orange stick aloft over both of their heads and whirl the 6 ft string on the end around in noisy circles. Their horse will stand happily under this while the rest of the herd leap about in horror. Effective though it may be, for some reason it pisses other owners off no end.
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Tinypony said:
they are often able to stand next to their horse while holding their orange stick aloft over both of their heads and whirl the 6 ft string on the end around in noisy circles. Their horse will stand happily under this while the rest of the herd leap about in horror. Effective though it may be, for some reason it pisses other owners off no end.
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Yes, can't say I would be too impressed with some idiot waving a whip around in my horses field to try and make him 'leap about in horror' :rolleyes:

ETA I can understand taking an extra leadrope or short whip in a field for your own safety but if anyone tried the above stunt in a field with my horse I would be very, very angry. It has taken a long time and a lot of input from my lovely classical dressage YO to make my horse comfortable around whips :)
 
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Sorry haven't read through some of the replies here OP, but when my horse booted me recently I found that taking homeopathic Arnica was a huge help. You can also get gel to rub in.

You've been to Casualty so that's good, but I'd also visit your doctor for a look-see later on in the week just to make sure all is well.

When I saw my doctor, she prescribed something called Hirudoid cream; which you don't need a prescription for and said this would help with the bruising/swelling.

Going back to what actually happened i.e one horse being jealous of the other having attention and lashing out: we had a livery horse here ages ago who was turned out with my old boy - there was just the two of them out in the field and they got all lovey-dovey and pair-bonded, but this particular horse would get very possessive if you tried to go in and get my old boy out and would be insanely jealous if I went out and started to lead him in, to the extent of coming at you with teeth and pulling horrid faces, and he meant it, he wasn't acting. He was always a bit riggy, this particular horse, thinking about it ....

Anyway, I decided I'd had enough one day and went out there (with hat, body protector etc!!! i.e. as safe as could be) plus a lunging whip and as soon as matey started his nonsense I let him see that I meant business.

Problem sorted PDQ! Result: one mannerly horse and owner who could go and get her horse in without risking life and limb!

Sorry peeps, no offence intended ......... but there's times when you gotta say "stuff the parelli, its back to old fashioned methods ...!!!":))
 
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